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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 19, 2008 22:57:26 GMT -6
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Post by k on Mar 19, 2008 23:14:55 GMT -6
Wait you're telling me that an issue in the south is broken down along racial lines? *SHOCK* Sounds like a great place to work... Choosing coaches based on handwriting... =) |
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Post by realdawg on Mar 20, 2008 5:15:20 GMT -6
While the hiring process may have been unfair, it wasnt the fault of the current head coach who is being replaced now. I dont think its fair that he be punished and removed from his job.
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Post by brophy on Mar 20, 2008 5:39:21 GMT -6
the student body were the plaintiffs?
Talk about 'networking'...........this profession is all about relationships.
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Post by groundchuck on Mar 20, 2008 6:19:26 GMT -6
While the hiring process may have been unfair, it wasnt the fault of the current head coach who is being replaced now. I dont think its fair that he be punished and removed from his job. Ditto. Also it is not like the guy they hired was unqualified or did a bad job. What's done is done. If they need to change thier hiring process so be it, but that is not the current HCs fault. |
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Post by Coach Vint on Mar 20, 2008 10:30:39 GMT -6
If I were Coach Foster I would not take the job. How can you put another coach out of work who has done a great job? I understand his reason for supporting a lawsuit, and perhaps the board will change their scoring system. I wouldn't take the position, that is for sure. I am all for opportunities for all candidates, and I think the judge thought the ruling was fair. However, it is now unfair to the guy who was hired for the job. Is it fair to him to lose his job? Did he hire himself? And, he had a great season win-loss wise.
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Post by airman on Mar 20, 2008 10:44:00 GMT -6
Be interesting to see what happens. If he takes the job and is successful he will have opened doors for future black coaches. if he takes the job and is not successful, he will be fired shortly and will close doors to future head coaches.
the south is not the only place where it is broken down by racial lines. do to chicago, detriot or milwaukee. all races and religions have there area and you stick to it. the south is just more bolden.
even the burbs in chicago are broken down. Maywood is just about all back while forest park is high dollar people and oak park is a racially diverse burb.
people tend to hang out with people of there own race. this is nothing new.
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Post by coachorr on Mar 20, 2008 13:17:06 GMT -6
Sounds like if I want to be an HC I better start working on my handwriting. Adminstrators are the biggest bunch of ______________ I have ever seen. Too bad for both coaches.
What we have to understand is that by making exception to special people we are only disenfranchising them further from reaching their full potential. Keep giving free stuff to poor people, they are just going to be that. Fight a case and win the HC job on the basis of race, then said individual will always be viewed as the one who didn't earn it.
Too bad that the system is as such, because I bet the coach who won the case is a fine coach. If he takes that position now, he will always looked at as something other than a great coach who "earned it".
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kdcoach
Sophomore Member
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Post by kdcoach on Mar 21, 2008 6:05:06 GMT -6
Hope they never have to hire a doctor in that district.....
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Post by schultbear74 on Mar 21, 2008 6:24:35 GMT -6
Remember the Titans?
Unfortunately, it is the old affirmative action argument- how much is enough? When will it end?
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Post by coachdawhip on Mar 21, 2008 6:50:06 GMT -6
Remember the Titans? Unfortunately, it is the old affirmative action argument- how much is enough? When will it end? I feel bad for both coaches, however the other caoch can't turn the job down if so, he would be doing others behind him a dis-service. Is the south still broken down among racial lines. Of course we are. But haven't all of us been watching the election talk? |
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Post by airraider on Mar 21, 2008 8:43:47 GMT -6
the "better" coach has won 4 games each of the last two years at different schools.
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Post by wildcat on Mar 21, 2008 9:24:19 GMT -6
What kind of reaction is Foster going to get if he takes the gig?IMO, he is setting himself up for failure if he becomes the head coach. There is going to be a lot of resentment towards him and if he can't match what the other coach did, the numbers of those who believe that Foster is a whiner and Vining got a first-class screwjob will only grow.
The thing is, Vining's record means little to me...sure, the guy was 10-3, but what was the team like the year before? What kind of athletes did he have? The thing is, if Foster falls on his face and the team doesn't win, he will have cut his own throat. He will probably never get the chance to be a head coach again.
The other thing is that Foster is currently a head coach, right? So what's the big deal? You got passed over at your alma mater...OK...that's tough, but you got another head coaching gig, right?
I think what would be in Foster's best interest would be to try and accept some kind of financial settlement from the school and get on with his life. Accepting the head coaching position after all of this is, IMO, a sure-fire way to drive his career right into a dead-end.
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neil
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Post by neil on Mar 21, 2008 10:18:17 GMT -6
Amite HS is loaded with athletes every season. They are a perennial 3A power. They are a large majority black school.
The previous head coach, who was white, did a wonderful job there.
Coach Foster was at another all majority black school and completely turned the program around. His team did not do well at that school his last season. At his new school, a 4A program in Baton Rouge has tons of histroy and tradition and struggled to make the play-offs this year. Both school he worked for St. Helena Central and Istrouma HS are both "failing" schools and are in corrective action.
Both coahces are good coaches and either one would have had a successful season at Amite.
Its just a shame that race has to play into any of this.
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Post by spreadattack on Mar 21, 2008 11:30:34 GMT -6
I tried to do some research on this but I couldn't find much. If anyone has the district court judge's actual opinion and order I'd like to see it. All this will be appealed and we'll know what the deal is. The article (though the only one out there) is kind of inadequate in explaining what went down.
Sounds though like there were two factors, one that the process they used in some way disproportionately affected black candidates. I don't know how or in what way, but if true then that's definitely a no go. The other factor is that there appears to be still a remaining court ordered issue with a desegregation decree that actually applies to football coaches, left over from the '70s, when schools were essentially forcefully integrated.
If that's true then this judge probably ruled correctly, but the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals might be willing to lift that, citing the passage of time. I don't really know. I can say I'd never heard of a racial balance for football coaches before, but Louisiana has a rather sordid racial history and sometimes extreme measures are appropriate. (I also know they merged schools and didn't want to see the all-black coaching staffs of some all-black schools get completely displaced. Again, it was the '70s.) Another factor is the S. Ct. recently struck down voluntary race-based school assignments (as distinct from court ordered desegregation decrees) in Seattle and Louisville.
In any event, it's another matter whether you'd want to be in the middle of this, right or wrong. I'll be interested to see how this issue is framed on appeal.
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smd
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Post by smd on Mar 21, 2008 11:59:05 GMT -6
the school board followed the procedure that a federal judge had told them to (circa 1964 court order) so on what grounds did they do anything wrong? they had to follow the procedures or they would have been in violation of a federal court order. so the guy didn't get the job, he pouted and sued (kinda a common theme in this country) and luckily his case found a judge that recommended that the school board didn't violate the law but they may have unintentially made it harder on him to get the job. so remove the current head coach is his decision. kinda doesn't make sense, they followed the law and were still wrong.
it would seem that the federal judge doesn't like the federal court order of 1964.
things don't go my way, play the "trump" card (remember he brought the race card to the table himself). and we wonder why "race" is still an issue...
dcohio has a point about historical black schools, in La. don't hold your collective breath for there ever to be a mandate to have at least one white to be interviewed at Grambling Lab or Southern Lab if they ever come open.
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Post by wildcat on Mar 21, 2008 14:19:10 GMT -6
the school board followed the procedure that a federal judge had told them to (circa 1964 court order) so on what grounds did they do anything wrong? they had to follow the procedures or they would have been in violation of a federal court order. so the guy didn't get the job, he pouted and sued (kinda a common theme in this country) and luckily his case found a judge that recommended that the school board didn't violate the law but they may have unintentially made it harder on him to get the job. so remove the current head coach is his decision. kinda doesn't make sense, they followed the law and were still wrong. it would seem that the federal judge doesn't like the federal court order of 1964. things don't go my way, play the "trump" card (remember he brought the race card to the table himself). and we wonder why "race" is still an issue... dcohio has a point about historical black schools, in La. don't hold your collective breath for there ever to be a mandate to have at least one white to be interviewed at Grambling Lab or Southern Lab if they ever come open. smd - With all due respect, anyone who thinks it wrong that HBCs don't interview white head coaching candidates doesn't understand why there are HBCs to begin with! And I think your post fails to recognize the LONG and SHAMEFUL history of whites using their positions of power and influence to keep talented and ambitious blacks down, especially in the deep South I don't think Coach Foster is "pouting" at all. I believe that it is far more complicated than that. I think he feels that a true injustice has been done and wants to make sure that it doesn't happen again. |
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smd
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Post by smd on Mar 21, 2008 15:25:59 GMT -6
good god man, when is enough going to be enough  , at what point will the excuse of "long and shameful past" be over? that is beating a dead horse. at this point, people are tired of hearing that excuse. with the gover't programs to help those who are not as fortunate as others, at some point you get kinda tired of hearing about the sins of your grandfathers. he sued the school board for following a federal court order that is suppose to help "minorities". am i the only one that is not understanding this logic? yeah, i define that as "pouting". i didn't get my way, so i am going to sue (the people who followed the law). do you get yet?  another thing that bothers me, a HC lost his job because he can write better than someone else. he is being punished for being better than his competition according to the rules. what kind of pandora's box is this going to be in the future? a coach can sue for not getting a job based on what? yell it from the mountain tops "equal rights, equal rights, equal rights", but not at historically black schools. seems kinda wrong to me. we want to eat from your plate, but don't touch mine. so much for equality. remember there used to be historically european american colleges in the south too. so that argument does stand water either. wild, its easy to make statements like that from the high horse (Illinois). come on down and see for ya self. on your way, stop and see coach crooms at Miss. state. he would be the guy that didn't sue alabama a few years ago when he didn't get th :-Xat job. and look where he is at now. pretty stand up fellow if ya ask me. by the way, how many black head coaches are there in the big ten? oops  dont' matter though, just one man's opinion. i expect that this thread will not stay open very much longer. |
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Post by wildcat on Mar 21, 2008 15:58:38 GMT -6
wild, its easy to make statements like that from the high horse (Illinois). come on down and see for ya self. Well, my horse isn't much taller than yours...The absolute WORST race riots in American history weren't in your neck of the woods...they were right down the road from me...Chicago, East St. Louis, Springfield, etc, etc... Look, I see your point. I really do understand where you are coming from. With that being said, I can also see why a successful black man might feel jilted when he gets passed over for a white man, especially when the black man is an alum of the organization in question. |
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smd
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Post by smd on Mar 21, 2008 16:06:45 GMT -6
i just edited my orginial post, but what about Coach Crooms at Miss. State. he didn't sue when he didn't get the alabama job. he is a stand up guy. i really respect the job that he has done. but at what point will the enough be enough? just getting tired of hearing. didn't mean too come off to much of a _rick, just felt like arguing.  have a happy easter.  |
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 21, 2008 16:28:37 GMT -6
wild, its easy to make statements like that from the high horse (Illinois). come on down and see for ya self. Well, my horse isn't much taller than yours...The absolute WORST race riots in American history weren't in your neck of the woods...they were right down the road from me...Chicago, East St. Louis, Springfield, etc, etc... Look, I see your point. I really do understand where you are coming from. With that being said, I can also see why a successful black man might feel jilted when he gets passed over for a white man, especially when the black man is an alum of the organization in question. wildcat, I think the scenario at hand is ludicrous. Now, THIS situation would be more apt to to fall under your point of view though...: If the dutiful in-house asst coach had been black and he had gotten passed over to hire a white outsider...THEN there could be some issues. In this case, it is simply black civic "leaders" doing what they seem to do best...picking the wrong battles and rabble rousing for their own benefit. The MORE PRESSING ISSUE...rather than racial division, is simply HOW CAN WE AS COACHES DEFEND AGAINST THIS TYPE OF THING. HOW do we as coaches keep from OTHERS making judgments as to what is "qualified" for our job? |
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Post by spreadattack on Mar 21, 2008 17:47:09 GMT -6
It seems like everyone here knows more of the facts about the process, etc than I've been able to find on the internet. I had thought that the reason the Federal Judge set this aside is because they *didn't* follow the previous court order or had done something to cause a disproportionate impact. I didn't see where the problem was this white coach was a better writer or not, but again I can't find the Judge's orders or any of the fact-finding. I'd love to read it, and I can probably guarantee that this ruling will be appealed to the Fifth Circuit and we'll get something interesting out of it.
And to coachd's point, it's nice but not altogether realistic. Head coaches are always hired by school boards and administrations. There's no council of learned coaches that gets to hire for various schools (though assistants are another matter). I think school boards and such have lots and lots of problems apart from their views on hiring coaches, but I don't have a big problem with federal courts ensuring that these entities - which themselves have a history of racial animus, apart from the communities where they sit - conduct their processes in a race-neutral manner.
Now it's another question, again I can't find more info on this, whether this process really was race-neutral (fact question). And I don't think anyone here would argue if it could be proved (or just assume it) that some school board said "Well, we have Coach Jim and Coach Bruce who are both equal, and Coach Bruce is Asian and Coach Jim is Indian, and we hate Indians and like Asians so we like Coach Bruce." No one would argue that is okay. So if that's what did happen (I do not know), then we don't have anything to argue about. That's not a matter of anyone being helped out or put down or ripped off. That's an example of government (the school board) employing impermissible factors.
Finally, I am curious that the automatic judgment here was to put in the black coach. We'll see if that survives. (And all this about historically black colleges is a red herring. )
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Post by wildcat on Mar 21, 2008 17:49:49 GMT -6
i just edited my orginial post, but what about Coach Crooms at Miss. State. he didn't sue when he didn't get the alabama job. he is a stand up guy. i really respect the job that he has done. but at what point will the enough be enough? just getting tired of hearing. didn't mean too come off to much of a _rick, just felt like arguing. have a happy easter. Hey...I agree. Crooms certainly could have cried "Foul" when he got passed over, especially in light of the debacle that has unfolded at "Bama in the 4 years or so since...but he didn't. He took the job at Mississippi State and probably saved his job with the season they had this year. But, just because Crooms was able to put it behind him even though he probably thought he got screwed in his heart of hearts does NOT mean that all black head coaches who get passed over during a somewhat questionable interview process should have to. I would LIKE to think that Foster really thinks he got screwed...really thinks that he got a raw deal and wants to correct that and make sure it doesn't happen again. But honestly, I don't know the guy...maybe it is just sour grapes. Any way you cut it, it's a pretty sad story for everyone involved. Either way, you have a great Easter, too! |
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 21, 2008 18:26:06 GMT -6
And to coachd's point, it's nice but not altogether realistic. Head coaches are always hired by school boards and administrations. I was talking more about unionization..as a separate entity from the teachers union.... |
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Post by khalfie on Mar 21, 2008 18:40:47 GMT -6
I was really trying to stay out of this one... but the audacity of some coaches, is beyond me! good god man, when is enough going to be enough , at what point will the excuse of "long and shameful past" be over? that is beating a dead horse. at this point, people are tired of hearing that excuse. with the gover't programs to help those who are not as fortunate as others, at some point you get kinda tired of hearing about the sins of your grandfathers. When's enough enough? How about.... when Blacks, who comprise 70 percent of NFL players... make up more than only 28% of the assistant coaches and more than 6% of head coaches? How about then? How about when Blacks, who comprise only 16 of the 616 NCAA Head Coaching positions at all levels... INCLUDING THOSE THAT COACH HBCU"S, increases to a number indicative of their representation in the game? How about that! I appreciate your sensitivity, and understanding of how our world operates, and more so, the governmental programs created to ensure, that the 400 years of injustice were eradicated with a couple of bylaws... I appreciate that! What Governmental programs were you speaking of again? Right... that's what I thought... you can take your self-righteous indignation and kiss my black a$$! he sued the school board for following a federal court order that is suppose to help "minorities". am i the only one that is not understanding this logic? yeah, i define that as "pouting". i didn't get my way, so i am going to sue (the people who followed the law). do you get yet? Pouting? That's what you call it, when a Black person utilizes the Governmental program created to rectify the past injustices? Wow... can't win with you huh? Damned if you do... damned if you don't! I don't know the situation, and maybe you are right... maybe the guy is manipulating the system to get his way... I don't really know... but for you to think you know... for you to think there aren't unjust systems... that there doesn't exists bias based on race... that everything is equal... and every opportunity is available to everyone... then again... I ask, why only 16 black coaches in the NCAA? Why only 6% in the NFL? Oh yeah... because Black men can't coach... can't play QB... until the late 60's couldn't play baseball, football, or basketball... This country has a history, to ignore it is disingenious... No doubt about it... times are so much better... but still... in cases of positions of high authorities... its white men raised in the height of Jim Crow Segregation... Separate and Unequal... that make the important decisions... and you're telling me... I shouldn't believe the system is unjust... when the results speak so loudly to it! another thing that bothers me, a HC lost his job because he can write better than someone else. he is being punished for being better than his competition according to the rules. what kind of pandora's box is this going to be in the future? a coach can sue for not getting a job based on what? Yeah... that's why he didn't get the job. The article itself said their were several subjective categories the men were judged upon... If a person is racist... would it be stated the candidate wasn't hired because he was black? Or would they find a more plausible excuse? More so... how many black coaches had their ever been for that football program? RiiigggghhT! yell it from the mountain tops "equal rights, equal rights, equal rights", but not at historically black schools. seems kinda wrong to me. we want to eat from your plate, but don't touch mine. so much for equality. remember there used to be historically european american colleges in the south too. so that argument does stand water either. I get so sick and tired of white guys complaining about HBCU's ... You do realize they have white students, white athletes... and dare I say... white coaches? Why not more white coaches? Because they aren't the best of jobs... low pay, low exposure... not too many white guys go applying for these gigs... But why let the facts get in the way of a good rant! And your predominately European American Colleges... well they still exist... African Americans comprise less than 14% of the population... with only 18 % of that number receiving a college education... So again... please... for the love of all man kind... just shut it up... you make all coaches dumber from the words you type on this board! |
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Post by tog on Mar 21, 2008 18:55:33 GMT -6
ok
i think we have explored this subject enough
thanks
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, at what point will the excuse of "long and shameful past" be over? that is beating a dead horse. at this point, people are tired of hearing that excuse. with the gover't programs to help those who are not as fortunate as others, at some point you get kinda tired of hearing about the sins of your grandfathers. 
