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Post by bluedevil58 on Oct 2, 2014 18:12:12 GMT -6
I just had a third parent complaining to me that the reason we're 0-5 right now (6-59 since 2008) is because we're not hard enough on our players. They're calling for us all to be fired. If it didn't feel like the truth, it wouldn't bother me, but it sure does.
20 years ago they had a real hard@$$ as HC and had a few .500 seasons here (school has a historical .300 winning percentage and he had a D-1, 4 time all state stud RB then), so he's their mark of quality, but that guy was known to be literally abusive to everyone around him. I share a last name with him and I hate the association based on awful stories I've heard.
Personally, I hate yelling at kids and chewing them out over mistakes. It's not my personality. I also like to have fun at practice so if a kid's being a little silly and it's not getting in the way, I don't see a problem.
That said, our discipline is lacking here and the energy at practice is very low, with kids just sitting on their butts most of the time on the sideline while we run plays on air in team or while I do the drills that I'm told to run (also mostly on air) during individual. Kids miss all the time and barely do anything when they are here.
As much as I hate chewing their butts, I do it at least once a week to try and light a fire under then but it doesn't change things. Three plays later, they're back to normal. If I call then out for loafing they just continue to loaf. Often, kids will talk back and refuse to do their running or whatever but still start and play.
How do you fix this and get kids to focus, care, stop pointing fingers at coaches and players, and just put forth some effort in practice and in games? We've gotten worse each week this season.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 2, 2014 19:03:20 GMT -6
Not sure if this is advice, but rather of a story of how I've evolved as a coach when it pertains to getting on players for continuous mistakes. I'm still considered a young coach I guess, I'm 32 now, coached one year in college when I was 22 and have coached at my high school Alma mater ever since. Up until a couple years ago, i rarely if ever yelled at kids, but it was more because I was shy around them for some reason. I'm not sure if this correlates, but ever since I had twins, I've been much for verbal and I find it much easier to correct players when they make a mistake. Now when I say yell, I don't mean I berate them at the top of my lungs, but if a player keeps making stupid mistakes in practice I don't say in a nice tone "come on joe, you got to block down on buck". I'll say it in a more stern, loud, pissed off, annoyed voice. By stupid mistakes I mean the ones that you have told them what to do probably 10,15, even 20 times already throughout the season and they still do it wrong. I always hate telling one RB one thing, then the next guy makes the same damn mistake. That means they weren't paying attention and that pisses me off. I will correct my players no matter how small the mess up is because I feel unless they do something perfect then I'm not doing my job. Now, on the flip side, I always commend them and praise them when they do something right. I get excited when they do it right.
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Post by coachrdc on Oct 3, 2014 4:35:04 GMT -6
There are ways to discipline players without yelling; running them for lack of discipline (track "loafs" and everyone runs a 110 for each), take away any privileges they have for off the field issues (music in locker room, at one stop we had couches in the locker room we threatened to take away), etc.
I think what is important is that you find something that fits your personality and your kids. If you're not a "yeller" and you force it the kids will see right through it, if your kids shut down when they are yelled at, what good does it do you to yell? Do whatever fits these two.
Has this been an issue before? Also, I tend to be a little paranoid, but anytime I deal with parents I document it either on the school grading system or with the administration.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 3, 2014 4:42:46 GMT -6
There are ways to discipline players without yelling; running them for lack of discipline (track "loafs" and everyone runs a 110 for each), take away any privileges they have for off the field issues (music in locker room, at one stop we had couches in the locker room we threatened to take away), etc. I think what is important is that you find something that fits your personality and your kids. If you're not a "yeller" and you force it the kids will see right through it, if your kids shut down when they are yelled at, what good does it do you to yell? Do whatever fits these two. Has this been an issue before? Also, I tend to be a little paranoid, but anytime I deal with parents I document it either on the school grading system or with the administration. I agree with what your saying, but the punishment needs to fit whatever action you're diciplining. If a kid keeps making mental errors like missed assignments I think it would be foolish to take away "privileges". The OP wasn't very specific. Is it lack of effort by the whole team? Them not caring? Going offsides? Fumbling? Off field issues? Mental errors? Talking back? All warrant different punishments. But like everyone will say...however you deal with it, be yourself. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards |
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Post by bluedevil58 on Oct 3, 2014 5:34:20 GMT -6
It's all those things mentioned above.
Kids don't care. They'll say as much. "We're 0-5 and our coaches/teammates suck. Why should we care? We 're just going to lose." This poor attitude and lack of effort has spread to over half our team, especially the linemen.
Kids miss practice a ton, especially our seniors and starters. They still start, or at least play by the end of the first quarter, even if they miss a day or two.
Kids loaf when they do show up in most drills. They just won't put forth any effort during individual at all unless it's goofing off or disrupting the drill by trying to pick on our weaker, unathletic players.
The parent that was talking down to me for not yelling enough? His senior son was being an idiot 2 weeks earlier and nearly blew out our C's knee by diving at it in a drill he wasn't even in. Same kid fakes an injury in every game.
I yelled over that.
When we're in team, they lay around everywhere like beached whales the whole time. Not something I worry about, but it looks bad.
Kids back talk to coaches and question everything we try to teach them, then do it their way instead of ours in games and drills. That IS a problem.
Then yesterday,we had a kid (senior) fake having a heatstroke (he had one for real a month ago) to get out of drills because he was being "bullied" by another player who told him to move his fat @$$ and block someone. Same kid apparently guilt trips those who start ahead of him and they come to us asking that we put him in, instead.
We have kicked two kids off for lying about why they missed practice, but our players are mostly pretty good in the classroom except for a few lazy turds. That's way down on our list of worries.
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Post by coach2013 on Oct 3, 2014 5:51:08 GMT -6
we stopped yelling. we dole out updowns like they are candy. kids want to do whatever they want, football requires each player do his job. don't do your job, you do updowns. we believe we work too hard as a staff to tolerate any and all forms of insubordination. we barely do any schemes just to make sure its not our fault ( we make sure nobody is confused so we are super simple) - remove the emotion, your consequence was earned you made a choice.
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Post by Defcord on Oct 3, 2014 6:31:10 GMT -6
I think there have been some pretty good advice here. When I got to the school I am at now we had quite a few players that didn't hustle around. A lot of walking on and off the field. There were kids that would just put the two in and go get water. Our Dc was pretty frustrated by it. I just refused to let it happen. A dlinemen came out and I asked what he was doing (best player from year before). I told the kid that I am the coach and I make those decisions. Kid is pissed but says ok. That was never a problem again. I am not sure how your situation was but here kids had never been asked to do those things. There has been a few times I will give guys just 5 up downs if they don't hustle off the field. I don't think our kids are lazy I just think they need to be asked and reminded to hustle. Your school may be a different situation but I think if you will just tell them this is what we expect and this is what we are going to do if we don't get then enforce that consistently you can get pretty quick results.
As far as yelling I have two things to guide me. The first thing is I want to coach my kids like I would coach my son so I am not going to verbally abuse him but I will yell at times if I think it will motivate him to do something better. Second, if I do yell I will make sure I go back and repeat the message in a way that is more calm and there is a chance for the player to respond.
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Post by utchuckd on Oct 3, 2014 7:15:24 GMT -6
Where's your head coach in waiting? This is a top down problem, you can't fix it if the people above you don't care.
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Post by wingtol on Oct 3, 2014 8:19:19 GMT -6
Sounds like you have a bunch of turds floating around that need flushed! Reading the OP it sounds like there are more problems than not yelling at kids. Why are players sitting on their buts during practice? Why are you running plays on air? Why are you running drills on air? Sounds like an overall culture change is needed there! Yelling at a kid in that situation isn't going to fix what's broken. If things aren't going to change then you need to hit the road and find a new team.
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Post by dubber on Oct 3, 2014 8:21:25 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Oct 3, 2014 8:32:46 GMT -6
kids miss all the time and barely do anything when they are here.
refuse to do their running or whatever but still start and play. the advice of the replies here offer good suggestions on how to correct and raise performance expectations. Kids will push limits until they know the path down that road is a dead end. If there is no fear of a consequence they don't want (i.e. kicked off and mommy can't save them by complaining to the principal)... However, knowing the struggles bluedevil58 has had these past seasons would tell you that there is very little he, one coach, can correct. If turd behavior is accepted by the program, then kids will take the path of least resistance. |
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Post by Defcord on Oct 3, 2014 8:44:24 GMT -6
kids miss all the time and barely do anything when they are here.
refuse to do their running or whatever but still start and play. the advice of the replies here offer good suggestions on how to correct and raise performance expectations. Kids will push limits until they know the path down that road is a dead end. If there is no fear of a consequence they don't want (i.e. kicked off and mommy can't save them by complaining to the principal)... However, knowing the struggles bluedevil58 has had these past seasons would tell you that there is very little he, one coach, can correct. If turd behavior is accepted by the program, then kids will take the path of least resistance. I agree it is nearly impossible to correct this kind of behavior and attitude if it doesn't come from the top down. That is a struggle that is frustrating and depressing.
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Post by gammelgaard on Oct 3, 2014 9:36:44 GMT -6
When I read this, two coaches pops up in my head. A LB coach, who has been with the military for almost a decade, and the national team HC who is also co-commish in Denmark. The LB coach would yell at everything. He did produce some great downhill LBers, but he could be a pain in the A at times. At one point, some players stopped taking him serious and just laughed at him.
One day about half the team was late for national practice. He would use 5 minutes with everyone huddled around him, telling people that we are serious about this, and id you can't respect that then leave. After thoose 5 minutes, I'd have a bad feeling in my gut, even though I was there early. He made everyone feel guilty and responsible.
Don't be the maniac, be the respected coach.
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Post by blb on Oct 3, 2014 9:44:22 GMT -6
I was in Debate and Forensics in HS so know how to use my voice, especially projecting to be heard-understood.
Players think I'm yelling sometimes when I'm not.
I only yell at mental mistakes and lack of effort, and I am specific about how to correct the error so it's not just noise. I remind them the first time, raise my voice the second, yelling doesn't start until third. Rarely gets to that point.
If you are always yelling, kids will tune you out. That's poor coaching. You wouldn't do that in the classroom, workplace, or your home. At least I hope not, wouldn't last long.
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Post by smfreeman on Oct 3, 2014 9:49:53 GMT -6
It's all those things mentioned above. Kids don't care. They'll say as much. "We're 0-5 and our coaches/teammates suck. Why should we care? We 're just going to lose." This poor attitude and lack of effort has spread to over half our team, especially the linemen. Kids miss practice a ton, especially our seniors and starters. They still start, or at least play by the end of the first quarter, even if they miss a day or two. Kids loaf when they do show up in most drills. They just won't put forth any effort during individual at all unless it's goofing off or disrupting the drill by trying to pick on our weaker, unathletic players. The parent that was talking down to me for not yelling enough? His senior son was being an idiot 2 weeks earlier and nearly blew out our C's knee by diving at it in a drill he wasn't even in. Same kid fakes an injury in every game. I yelled over that. When we're in team, they lay around everywhere like beached whales the whole time. Not something I worry about, but it looks bad. Kids back talk to coaches and question everything we try to teach them, then do it their way instead of ours in games and drills. That IS a problem. Then yesterday,we had a kid (senior) fake having a heatstroke (he had one for real a month ago) to get out of drills because he was being "bullied" by another player who told him to move his fat @$$ and block someone. Same kid apparently guilt trips those who start ahead of him and they come to us asking that we put him in, instead. We have kicked two kids off for lying about why they missed practice, but our players are mostly pretty good in the classroom except for a few lazy turds. That's way down on our list of worries. I haven't read through all the post but I can tell you I am in a similar situation but complete opposite. I am too hard on our players and hurt their feelings because I have tried everything to motivate them. I do not do anything terrible I simple coach at a high effort and try to get our players to fight through adversity but it hurts there feelings when I tell them that the ultimate looser is the person that quits on their teammates and that got me in the office because I hurt kids feelings mainly because what I said is the truth and hurt the perpetrators feelings. When it comes down to it when you don't win people feel like there has to be a reason other than their kids aren't good athletes because their kid is an amazing athlete so it has to be coaches. |
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Post by 33coach on Oct 3, 2014 10:01:29 GMT -6
Im in an 0- season as well...and im getting the same BS. "You need to be harder on them".....no not really...they just need to execute properly, and yelling wont help.
Sent from my VS980 4G using proboards
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Post by silkyice on Oct 3, 2014 10:08:42 GMT -6
It's all those things mentioned above. Kids don't care. They'll say as much. "We're 0-5 and our coaches/teammates suck. Why should we care? We 're just going to lose." This poor attitude and lack of effort has spread to over half our team, especially the linemen. Kids miss practice a ton, especially our seniors and starters. They still start, or at least play by the end of the first quarter, even if they miss a day or two. Kids loaf when they do show up in most drills. They just won't put forth any effort during individual at all unless it's goofing off or disrupting the drill by trying to pick on our weaker, unathletic players. The parent that was talking down to me for not yelling enough? His senior son was being an idiot 2 weeks earlier and nearly blew out our C's knee by diving at it in a drill he wasn't even in. Same kid fakes an injury in every game. I yelled over that. When we're in team, they lay around everywhere like beached whales the whole time. Not something I worry about, but it looks bad. Kids back talk to coaches and question everything we try to teach them, then do it their way instead of ours in games and drills. That IS a problem. Then yesterday,we had a kid (senior) fake having a heatstroke (he had one for real a month ago) to get out of drills because he was being "bullied" by another player who told him to move his fat @$$ and block someone. Same kid apparently guilt trips those who start ahead of him and they come to us asking that we put him in, instead. We have kicked two kids off for lying about why they missed practice, but our players are mostly pretty good in the classroom except for a few lazy turds. That's way down on our list of worries. Ummm....... Y'all need to be fired. Sorry. Yelling or not yelling has nothing to do with it. |
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 3, 2014 10:16:09 GMT -6
I feel sometimes you have to yell to get your point across, if not kids take advantage of "nice". I know if I got yelled at by my principal, there's a far less chance I'm making that mistake again compared to if he said it nicely. Sometimes nice comes across as they don't really care so it's no big deal if you make another mistake. Obviously the ultimate punishment is less playing time and loosing your starting job, but not all of us have the luxury of having that type of roster depth.
I know the high school games on espnU are a totally different ball game, but I am surprised how much some of those coaches scream at their players. I think that's going a little overboard.
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Post by coachrdc on Oct 3, 2014 10:44:15 GMT -6
There are ways to discipline players without yelling; running them for lack of discipline (track "loafs" and everyone runs a 110 for each), take away any privileges they have for off the field issues (music in locker room, at one stop we had couches in the locker room we threatened to take away), etc. I think what is important is that you find something that fits your personality and your kids. If you're not a "yeller" and you force it the kids will see right through it, if your kids shut down when they are yelled at, what good does it do you to yell? Do whatever fits these two. Has this been an issue before? Also, I tend to be a little paranoid, but anytime I deal with parents I document it either on the school grading system or with the administration. I agree with what your saying, but the punishment needs to fit whatever action you're diciplining. If a kid keeps making mental errors like missed assignments I think it would be foolish to take away "privileges". The OP wasn't very specific. Is it lack of effort by the whole team? Them not caring? Going offsides? Fumbling? Off field issues? Mental errors? Talking back? All warrant different punishments. But like everyone will say...however you deal with it, be yourself. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards 100% agree. |
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Post by coachphillip on Oct 3, 2014 11:00:51 GMT -6
Why don't you just have the most disciplined, hardest working position group and hold them to the standard you ultimately want to achieve with the entire team? I don't understand all the complaining about the team as a whole in the past few threads I've read. Got a problem with the wide receivers, or the OC, or the linebackers, or the DC, or the long snappers, or the kicking tee ... EFF THEM. You are the HC of your position group. Make sure they are beyond reproach. Maximize their potential as athletes. DO YOUR JOB. Don't worry if everyone around you isn't doing theirs.
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Post by coachphillip on Oct 3, 2014 11:02:18 GMT -6
You're not the HC, bro. He sucks. Forget him. Be the best dang position coach in the world. Kids will take notice and get it together or they'll quit. Win - Effing win.
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Post by Defcord on Oct 3, 2014 11:07:35 GMT -6
Why don't you just have the most disciplined, hardest working position group and hold them to the standard you ultimately want to achieve with the entire team? I don't understand all the complaining about the team as a whole in the past few threads I've read. Got a problem with the wide receivers, or the OC, or the linebackers, or the DC, or the long snappers, or the kicking tee ... EFF THEM. You are the HC of your position group. Make sure they are beyond reproach. Maximize their potential as athletes. DO YOUR JOB. Don't worry if everyone around you isn't doing theirs. I agree with this approach whole heartedly! But the rest of the stuff would still frustrate me! |
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Post by coachphillip on Oct 3, 2014 11:17:50 GMT -6
You're right, coach. It would frustrate me too. But, my guys would be model players. Then, when I lobby my fellow coaches to step their games up, nobody can say Jack to me.
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Post by jsk002 on Oct 3, 2014 11:47:02 GMT -6
You have to coach from your own personality. If you're not a hot head firey type guy and you try to be it just comes across as fake and not genuine. I am too much the other way, I feel like I am too hot headed sometimes over little things that set me off, but I feel like that is off set by our defensive position coaches, who are not firey type guys. I'm going to give you some advice here coach and you can take it or leave it, but I think this has really helped us. I stole this from 5 Dysfunctions of a Team and we do it every year, players and coaches included. I think it has bound us together as unit/family more than anything else I have ever done. It requires 2 things, it requires that the person being talked about not take things personally and it requires the teammates giving assessments to be honest. Coaches always go first. One by one every member of our defense will stand in front of his teammates (again, coaches included...including the HC) and the players are to give 2 positive and 1 negative comments about that player/coach. It's honest feed back and how your teammates see you as a player or coach. It takes a little bit and you kind of need to lead it at first when you start doing it. Also, they don't stick to the 2/1 ratio. Sometimes there are more positives or more negatives. But in the end, it is the perception of how others see you. My feed back was: Sometimes they feel like I go off and yell and no one really knows why I yell, what went wrong, etc. My positives were everyone is equal, no one gets special treatment, no one wonders where they stand with me and I'm always on my "chit" defensively (they always feel prepared). So I took that and this year I've tried to be more specific when I get bent out of shape. To be perfectly honest, I only really get bent out of shape in practice over effort or mental lapses...like we are in cover 3 and for some reason the CB is in man...that will send me off the deep end every time. My CB coach was told: Sometimes its difficult to tell whether he's a player or a coach sometimes. It's a really good thing and the kids call each other out on some stuff, we have a BCS defensive lineman and he's obviously our best player but he took a lot of criticism. The players told him that he's a great emotional leader but he lacks consistent effort and they think if he just worked at it as hard as he could he would be unstoppable. Anyway - that's my advice. I am a yeller type guy but it matches the intensity of my personality. I don't yell yell, but my voice is very loud and carries very well and sometimes I've been accused of yelling when really I'm just trying to speak loudly and clearly and I'm not even upset. And on a side note - did I read sitting on their butts on the sideline during practice? Are you f*&^ing serious?? Coach, practice time is not funzies time. I ride my kids hard during the week. I am unforgiving and a real difficult coach to play for because I am on top of any little lack of effort or fundamental mistake. It's not always a barrel of laughs Monday - Thursday, those are my days, those are coaching days. Fridays - those are for the players and I don't yell at the players on friday...because what we see is what we have coached at that point. Sitting on the sideline during practice - I've never even heard of such... At what point in the season do you do this. I think it is a great idea. |
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Post by carookie on Oct 3, 2014 23:03:29 GMT -6
Im not going to get into the benefits or justifications of yelling. But if you do yell, please don't be the insulting yelling coach. Yelling at a kids about how dumb they are, and refusing to answer questions just doesnt work. Keep in mind why you are yelling at them too; is it because you are frustrated, or is because you honestly feel it will make them better?
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Post by rbcrusaders on Oct 4, 2014 1:09:35 GMT -6
Sounds to me like the reason you are losing is because of the way your practices are scheduled/run, not the lack of yelling at players
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Post by 3sportcoach on Oct 4, 2014 21:20:42 GMT -6
I was in Debate and Forensics in HS so know how to use my voice, especially projecting to be heard-understood. Players think I'm yelling sometimes when I'm not. I only yell at mental mistakes and lack of effort, and I am specific about how to correct the error so it's not just noise. I remind them the first time, raise my voice the second, yelling doesn't start until third. Rarely gets to that point. If you are always yelling, kids will tune you out. That's poor coaching. You wouldn't do that in the classroom, workplace, or your home. At least I hope not, wouldn't last long. I couldn't agree more. Kids know when coaches are just "yellers." Also, if a kid does the same thing 20times in a row, they are in capable of getting it done. Maybe physically, maybe intellectually… If I keep trying the same thing and expect a different result… that's on me. |
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Post by rbcrusaders on Oct 5, 2014 18:27:53 GMT -6
I was in Debate and Forensics in HS so know how to use my voice, especially projecting to be heard-understood. Players think I'm yelling sometimes when I'm not. I only yell at mental mistakes and lack of effort, and I am specific about how to correct the error so it's not just noise. I remind them the first time, raise my voice the second, yelling doesn't start until third. Rarely gets to that point. If you are always yelling, kids will tune you out. That's poor coaching. You wouldn't do that in the classroom, workplace, or your home. At least I hope not, wouldn't last long. I couldn't agree more. Kids know when coaches are just "yellers." Also, if a kid does the same thing 20times in a row, they are in capable of getting it done. Maybe physically, maybe intellectually… If I keep trying the same thing and expect a different result… that's on me. I agree, but for different reasons. I feel that it is on me, but because I haven't done a good enough job teaching. |
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Post by newhope on Oct 6, 2014 10:49:49 GMT -6
What you describe is not a case of yelling or not yelling. This is about setting expectations and holding players accountable for meeting those expectations--coming to practice, working at practice, etc. This is why you're not successful. If players are being allowed to do all the things you describe, then somebody probably should be fired.
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Post by blb on Oct 6, 2014 18:24:53 GMT -6
The best discipline is getting the players to do it right because it is the right way, which means you have to teach them not only the how but why.
Then it becomes Self-Discipline, which should be one of the things they learn from playing HS sports.
Consequences are a part of that.
Yelling doesn't have to be.
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