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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 8, 2014 12:57:50 GMT -6
A couple of facts to outline the situation first:
Ours is a relatively big program with three levels: frosh, JV, and Varsity. Usually between 45-55 kids on Varsity.
JV is almost entirely made up of sophomores, occasionally some first year players who are juniors will play at that level.
Varsity is typically juniors/seniors, though we tend to have 2-3 sophomores in the mix to play varsity each year.
JV games are played on Thursday, it is not a situation where we could dress a kid for the varsity game on Friday then play him in the JV game on Saturday if he didn't get a certain number of reps.
So here's the situation we find ourselves in. We have a sophomore who is one of the best players in his class, plays RB and LB, and also kicks. If he played JV he would certainly play both ways and be on the field for probably about 80% of the plays. If he played varsity he would absolutely be our starting kicker/punter and would have a role on special teams and probably play 12-15 snaps a game defensively.
We've moved the kid up for the time being to try to get him coached up on what we're doing on Varsity, and since there isn't a game for a few months have no intention of him going back down to JV at this time. But the kid is in a little bit of a panic because he is used to playing all the time, and playing both ways, and right now we've told him we want him focusing on LB. The main contribution he would make to our Varsity team would definitely be as a kicker, as he can consistently kick touchbacks on kickoff and we don't have somebody else who can do that.
We haven't quite decided yet on how to handle the situation if/when the kid asks back down to JV if he isn't satisfied kicking the ball and having a "roll player" roll on Varsity, so I'd like to hear what thoughts you guys on how you would handle it or present it to the kid. My initial reaction is that when that happens there is going to be a discussion about putting the good of the team above his own preferences, but at the same time I can see the perspective of the kid not wanting to be moved up to stand and watch 75% of the game.
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souza12
Sophomore Member
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Post by souza12 on Jun 8, 2014 13:05:03 GMT -6
If hes going to see respectable PT he goes up.. if not he stays down.. my opinion
I would consider 12-15 plays respectable.
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Post by spartan on Jun 8, 2014 13:39:30 GMT -6
JV its all about development don't let the fruit die on the vine.
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Post by coachbb on Jun 8, 2014 13:46:46 GMT -6
One factor to consider is how the player will affect your program long-term. I've been at my current school for about two years and this school hasn't had much success for almost a decade and a half. There has been very little winning at the varsity and sub-varsity levels. We resolved to rebuild the program from the ground up by changing the culture of losing. That means we are going to try and win as much on the sub-varsity as the varsity. We want our players to have an expectation of winning when they get to the varsity level. Last year we had a winning JV record for the first time in many years and this has created a lot of enthusiasm with the younger kids.
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mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 207
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Post by mc140 on Jun 8, 2014 14:02:24 GMT -6
If a kid start and make a positive impact he should be up. Only way I would lean toward leaving him down in that situation is if your varsity will likely be bad and by leaving him down your lower level would have success.
If kid will play but not start, a lot depends on his mental makeup. Some kids would love to be the sophomore on varsity who plays special teams and occasionally get in the game. Others will pout in that situation and complain they would rather be down with their friends.
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Post by planck on Jun 8, 2014 16:06:37 GMT -6
Having coached JV for a number of years, my litmus test is two-fold:
1) can the kid help the varsity team win? Nobody awards trophies for undefeated JV seasons. If the kid makes you better on the field, play him.
2) can the kid get better playing JV or do they need to compete against better athletes to improve? JV is all about development. I've coached teams where our best player was so much better than the rest of the JV squad that we moved him up to varsity even though he wouldn't see the field solely so that he could get better.
At the end of the day, it's simple: win championships. You win championships by having great players (among other reasons). You play the best kids that you have and you develop the rest.
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Post by lions23 on Jun 8, 2014 19:37:52 GMT -6
Can he just kick for varsity and play JV? I know there are quarters regulations in some states.
If he is your best underclass athlete I want him to get significant developmental reps or be a varsity starter. Soph kids who play backup roles for us will still play JV.
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Post by rystaylo on Jun 8, 2014 20:04:14 GMT -6
i would play him varsity.
especially if he can kick consistent touchbacks.
that is saving your defense about 5 first downs a game, minimum.
unless you guys never score.
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Post by fantom on Jun 8, 2014 20:08:25 GMT -6
Can he just kick for varsity and play JV? I know there are quarters regulations in some states. That would be ideal. Otherwise I can't see how he can't play varsity. He's your kicker and punter. He's a starter. |
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mhs99
Junior Member
Posts: 250
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Post by mhs99 on Jun 8, 2014 20:25:21 GMT -6
Let the kid be a stud.....we have run into this a number of times.
the kids practice with us anyways, so let him loose it will benefit the kid and progam in the end
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 8, 2014 20:56:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the feedback so far, I lean towards keeping him up and think that it will help his development to play against the better competition every day in practice and in the games, but I coach the defense too so maybe I just secretly want him around to kick touchbacks.
A couple other things if it changes anybody's opinion:
I'm not talking about 12-15 pity reps to appease the kid at the end of the game, he would be the primary backup at his position, and that is how much a kid in that type of position on the depth chart can expect to play for us.
We run the same scheme on our sub-varsity levels as our Varsity levels, but we obviously run more stuff on Varsity, and we don't practice together so the stuff he would be practicing would be somewhat different but not much if he wasn't with the Varsity.
We're fortunate to be in a position as a program where we win a lot, at all three levels. The kid was part of a freshman team that didn't have a single close game last year, and the varsity made it to the state championship game, so changing culture isn't really a factor.
One concern I have with the kid is that he has always been the stud in his class, but it looks to me like it has had more to do with early physical development than anything else. There are kids in his class that absolutely outwork him in the weight room at this time, and I wonder if allowing him to play another year where he is going to be a stud whether or not he puts in the effort we would like may actually hurt him in the long run, as opposed to forcing his hand to either lift at what we would consider a "varsity level" or get passed up.
Maybe that's grasping at straws to support keeping him on Varsity, but we have a great weight room culture and every year there are a few kids who were good JV players that never play another down because they don't want to be a part of that culture in the weight room, and if this guy is one of those kids I'd rather find out sooner than later.
I believe that our rules for at both levels have to do with total quarters played as well, that is a good suggestion and may be a good backup plan, thanks for the suggestion.
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Post by windigo on Jun 11, 2014 10:59:02 GMT -6
If he is that good on JV then JV is probably not going to help him. If anything he will develop bad habits because its too easy.
You only get better by playing a better opponent. Anytime you say stud on JV its time to move him up to a better opponent. He is not being challenged and that is never a good thing.
JV should not have any studs.
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Post by wingt74 on Jun 11, 2014 14:27:37 GMT -6
Having coached JV for a number of years, my litmus test is two-fold: 1) can the kid help the varsity team win? Nobody awards trophies for undefeated JV seasons. If the kid makes you better on the field, play him. 2) can the kid get better playing JV or do they need to compete against better athletes to improve? JV is all about development. I've coached teams where our best player was so much better than the rest of the JV squad that we moved him up to varsity even though he wouldn't see the field solely so that he could get better. At the end of the day, it's simple: win championships. You win championships by having great players (among other reasons). You play the best kids that you have and you develop the rest. Sounds good, until your ability as a coach is directly tied to your JV record... |
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SconnieOC
Junior Member
Just here to learn the facemelter
Posts: 411
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Post by SconnieOC on Jun 11, 2014 15:03:13 GMT -6
You're there to win. Having a good K/P directly affects your ability to win. If he is a primary backup, and one guy goes down, he's playing full time. Plus, if he is with the varsity guys full time, he might see what he needs to be doing in the weight room to improve and be on the level he needs to be at. He'll get used to the game speed and the schemes so as a junior he should be a lot closer to performing at a high level than having to adjust from JV to Varsity speed the next year.
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Post by planck on Jun 11, 2014 15:17:38 GMT -6
Having coached JV for a number of years, my litmus test is two-fold: 1) can the kid help the varsity team win? Nobody awards trophies for undefeated JV seasons. If the kid makes you better on the field, play him. 2) can the kid get better playing JV or do they need to compete against better athletes to improve? JV is all about development. I've coached teams where our best player was so much better than the rest of the JV squad that we moved him up to varsity even though he wouldn't see the field solely so that he could get better. At the end of the day, it's simple: win championships. You win championships by having great players (among other reasons). You play the best kids that you have and you develop the rest. Sounds good, until your ability as a coach is directly tied to your JV record... I can't say I'd ever want to work for an HC whose biggest concern is the JV record, especially if the JV coaches are looking out for the programs best interest instead of their own. |
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Post by wingt74 on Jun 12, 2014 7:16:46 GMT -6
Sounds good, until your ability as a coach is directly tied to your JV record... I can't say I'd ever want to work for an HC whose biggest concern is the JV record, especially if the JV coaches are looking out for the programs best interest instead of their own. Not the HC's biggest concern, HC many times could care less. But it's not just the HC that makes decisions and judges...don't forget parents and the AD. If you're the HC of the JV team, and you're getting blast 50-0 on a regular basis....parents and the AD don't care that the Var level has had a rash of injuries and anyone from freshmen up that can play is now on varsity. |
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Post by coachphillip on Jun 12, 2014 9:39:53 GMT -6
My only concern in coaches who hoard talent is that there is some correlation between lower level success and upper level success. If the young guys get blasted every week then don't be surprised when your JV only has twenty kids for you every year. If the kid is gonna play a substantial amount of ball then take him up and let him help you win. If you are gonna move him up so that he can hold the jock straps of the first and second stringers at his position then you are one of the worst kinds of coaches. I hate seeing kids miss out on playing the game they love because they mean more to some old man as an insurance policy.
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Post by planck on Jun 12, 2014 10:29:04 GMT -6
Great examples, both. I agree that if you're getting reamed by 50 on a regular basis, you probably aren't doing your job all that well. I think there's a compromise between putting a premium on winning every JV game and developing players, though. I've also been blessed to avoid working in programs where the HC didn't have a firm grip on personnel decisions, so there's that...this isn't the case everywhere.
I've seen it both ways. Most successful program I've coached in out a premium on development, which over time lead to having quality kids at all levels and occasionally moving studs up. Frequently, we'd have OL move up for practice but play JV (there's no reason to let a 285 lb sophomore build lazy habits whipping smaller kids in practice, but he might not play at the varsity level).
Program I'm in now is a little feudal. Varsity grabs a kid from JV, so JV coaches grab a kids from freshmen. Everybody looks at winning games rather than developing kids. We're good, but not great.
I guess I'm just more interested in program success than my personal record as a coach (humblebrag, I guess).
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Post by fantom on Jun 12, 2014 12:02:53 GMT -6
I agree that you shouldn't pull a kid up unless he's going to be a starter or get a lot of minutes. Let's remember that the OP's kid is their kicker and punter, They need the kid. The only way I'd leave him down is if this is a total rebuild. If the varsity is going to be hopeless anyway, I see no problem letting the JVs stay together and build a winning attitude.
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 12, 2014 14:10:24 GMT -6
I don't think a kid should be pulled up unless he starts on O or D
However I understand what you said about wanting to develop him and have him coached up
I understand the frustration with lack of coaching at lower levels
I'd say keep him up with you all summer long... He will develop more there and won't get the bad habits studs can develop on JV when they beat everyone on natural ability
The week of your first game, if he still looks like just a role player
Send him to the JVs
If he has done enough to earn a starting spot at RB or LB then keep him up
Should be the same O and D so It should be no problem for him to slide back with the JV team
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Post by adawg2302 on Jun 12, 2014 15:08:46 GMT -6
I am going to play devil's advocate for a minute...
Does anyone in these types of situations let the player decide? For example, if you have a soph. who would start/play a ton on varsity but wants to play JV, does he play JV? Do you "force" him to play varsity?
Just throwing out thoughts on what the kid would want to do, and what would happen if he disagrees with the decision (coach wants him to play varsity, but he says he only wants to play JV for example).
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Post by coachphillip on Jun 12, 2014 15:32:22 GMT -6
If the kid REALLY wants to play JV ball then I don't think there's anything you can do. We had this situation this past season. Our JV RT really wanted to stay down. HC told him he was making a mistake and pretty much bullied him into playing varsity the last two weeks. He was a freshman. Season ends and the next thing we know, he's telling us how much fun he had playing this year and he was moving back to Hawaii with his mom. I'm not entirely sure that this treatment of him didn't push him away.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 12, 2014 19:33:13 GMT -6
If our kid ends up really preferring to play JV, we will let him play JV, though I have to say that it would impact my evaluation of him moving forward regarding how much faith I'll put in him. The reality is that we'll do everything we can to make this an easy decision for him and make him want to stay up.
To his credit, he understands that there are no games for the next 10 weeks so there's no downside in him staying with Varsity right now, and he is doing everything he can to learn the scheme and play the position the way we want it done.
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Post by dubber on Jun 13, 2014 7:03:42 GMT -6
He'll probably make the decision for you.
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Post by fantom on Jun 14, 2014 8:11:04 GMT -6
I'm really stunned by the number of people in this thread who don't seem to consider the kicker/punter a vital part of the team.
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Post by blb on Jun 14, 2014 8:29:31 GMT -6
I'm really stunned by the number of people in this thread who don't seem to consider the kicker/punter a vital part of the team.
Interesting too that on a Varsity squad of 45-55 kids they apparently don't have Juniors and Seniors who could be punter or kicker.
Should be at least one of each per class.
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Post by adawg2302 on Jun 14, 2014 11:56:43 GMT -6
A kicker is a huge part of the game. Consistent touch backs and PATs are something a lot of high school teams do not have.
My question was more or less asking if any coach ever had an underclassman they wanted to bring up to start (kicker or another position) and the kid said no, I would rather play JV and what the coach did in that situation. Kind of the opposite of the original question (where the coach was trying to decide whether or not to bring up the player).
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Post by blb on Jun 14, 2014 13:40:25 GMT -6
A kicker is a huge part of the game. Consistent touch backs and PATs are something a lot of high school teams do not have. My question was more or less asking if any coach ever had an underclassman they wanted to bring up to start (kicker or another position) and the kid said no, I would rather play JV and what the coach did in that situation. Kind of the opposite of the original question (where the coach was trying to decide whether or not to bring up the player).
If the young man says "No," that indicates he's not ready emotionally, socially, or psychologically.
Leave him on JVs.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 14, 2014 20:36:48 GMT -6
For clarity's sake we have guys who can punt, and we have a guy who can kick PATs that will be playing varsity this year. But nobody who can kick touch backs, and if this kid is up he is a better punter and a more accurate kicker than any of the other options, so he'll definitely start there.
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Post by coachorm on Jun 16, 2014 12:31:01 GMT -6
Could you let him play RB on the JV squad and then play K/P with 10-15 plays a game as LB for the Varsity?
I don't coach in a situation anything close to this so I am just trying to throw out an idea. For all I know your state has rules against that type of thing happening. But it may make him feel more comfortable that he can still play both which he seems to want and still help the varsity. If he is a stud then more than likely JV reps would be limited to the first half or just rotate him with another player.
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