|
Post by buckhunter on May 12, 2014 14:03:54 GMT -6
What do you'll think about supplements at the high school level? Please explain your opinion with pros and cons. If yes what supplement would you recommend?
|
|
tekart
Junior Member
Posts: 298
|
Post by tekart on May 12, 2014 14:42:11 GMT -6
I encourage proper nutrition and adequate rest. I discourage the use of supplements and think recommending supplements could be huge liability issue. Just my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by coachphillip on May 12, 2014 14:47:12 GMT -6
I would never recommend supplements to a player because of the liability issues, like Coach said. I wouldn't mind a kid taking protein shakes (whey protein, nothing else). All the other stuff is a no no for me. I have a bunch of kids who slam pre workout before lifts. I swear one of them is going to overheat on me one day.
|
|
|
Post by shocktroop34 on May 12, 2014 15:18:43 GMT -6
Our county has a policy against talking to players about supplements of any kind. On a personal level, a protein shake (to be used as a meal replacement) is not uncommon.
From research I've done, 5-6 small to moderate meals will optimize a good weight training program.
Creatine is still a largely unknown supplement. I haven't seen any long term studies that show it's benefits or harmful results. (I'm sure they may be out there, I just haven't looked)
When I was in college the mindset was 'if you're not taking creatine, the guy playing in front of you is.' It sucked. But "when in Rome..."
Though creatine is a natural substance, the user needs a TON of water to truly make it effective. My older sons used it and got strong with it. But much like any supplement, when they were done taking it, they lost most of their size.
Just my personal perspective.
|
|
|
Post by georgefred86 on May 12, 2014 19:49:41 GMT -6
We tell our players in order to get big, they have to eat big (and still be sound nutritionally) ... without the use of supplements. We have a nutrition program that we instituted threes ago of a former player, that is in pre-med, and he teaches them how to cook meals that they can make efficiently by themselves.
This has been a big advantage for our program. It is against our state's athletic code to promote supplements, which I strongly agree with, since most of them are not regulated by the FDA.
|
|
|
Post by Coach.A on May 12, 2014 22:41:16 GMT -6
I think most high school students would benefit from the following supplements:
1. A whey/casein protein powder 2. A greens supplement (e.g. Greens+) 3. Fish oil
I only suggested the above 3 supplements because most high school students aren't consuming enough protein, vegetables, and healthy fats.
|
|
|
Post by coachbdud on May 13, 2014 0:04:53 GMT -6
Not supposed to talk to kids about it
But is recommend Creatine A protein supplement
Creatine is the only legal supplement proven to increase size and strength in pretty much every study done on it
Protein because the average teens diet is too high in carb on fat and too low on protein
|
|
|
Post by buckhunter on May 13, 2014 9:14:07 GMT -6
I should of specified that I was referring to my own son who is in the 8th grade not my athletes. He was inquiring about wanting to get stronger so that he could handle the pressure of being the coaches son (LOL). I don't think I give him that impression but I know his teammates do. So basically I'm having the dilemma of being coach which means staying PC or dad doing whats ever best for him.
|
|
|
Post by mariner42 on May 13, 2014 9:14:42 GMT -6
I actually had to have this conversation with the other guy running our off season weight training stuff. He runs the AM workouts, I do the PM. I came into the weight room a few weeks back and he had a whole breakdown of the various supplements he thought that the kids should be taking (and since he works for GNC, the list was extensive). I texted him right away and shut that down immediately because I don't want either of us getting sued if/when something goes bad and a parent connects it to something the kid has been taking.
I tell them to research things on their own, consult a family doctor if they decide to do anything, and follow all safety guidelines for anything that they do take.
|
|
|
Post by spos21ram on May 13, 2014 9:28:11 GMT -6
I should of specified that I was referring to my own son who is in the 8th grade not my athletes. He was inquiring about wanting to get stronger so that he could handle the pressure of being the coaches son (LOL). I don't think I give him that impression but I know his teammates do. So basically I'm having the dilemma of being coach which means staying PC or dad doing whats ever best for him. An 8th grader shouldn't be taking anything IMO. Protein shakes are fine, but as far as creatine goes, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone under 16. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by rcole on May 13, 2014 9:52:58 GMT -6
Before spending money on supplements you should:
1) Commit to attend 90% or more of your workout opportunities. There is no point in taking supplements if you are not consistently attending workouts.
2) Eat plenty of high quality calories as explained in this manual. Your body can not build muscle without materials. If you do not eat enough and/or do not eat the right things, you will not get great results.
3) Hydrate! Drink plenty of water. Avoid cola and other sugar drinks. Minimize caffeine.
4) Sleep! Proper sleep is crucial to improving muscle mass, body composition, and strength/speed. High school aged students need at least 8 hours a night, preferably 10 hours a night.
If you are doing all of this and you want to do more to improve your gains, start with something as simple as milk. Low Fat Chocolate Milk has performed as well or better than most post-workout shakes in a recent study. One of the standards in the powerlifting world is that they try to drink a gallon of milk a day. Now that could get expensive and you may not enjoy milk that much. But it would be easy to drink the school chocolate milk at lunch and try to drink a large glass of low fat chocolate milk on days when you train, preferably immediately after your workout.
Realize that at your age your body has all of the natural Testosterone and HGH it needs to grow rapidly. What it needs is calories, work, and rest.
If you are doing all of this and STILL want to do more, then explore supplements. There is a limit to what we as district employees can recommend to you. Do your research and ask someone other than the person who is selling the product. I caution you that much of what is sold at GNC has been proven to show no benefit in many studies. There are a few things that work well and many things that are a complete waste money. In my experience, the missing ingredient for most high school athletes is not supplements.
So remember:
CONSISTANT HARD WORK, EAT COMPLETELY & CORRECTLY, HYDRATE, SLEEP, MILK, THEN SUPPLEMENTS.
|
|
|
Post by rcole on May 13, 2014 9:53:36 GMT -6
That being said, Creatine is great! But we can't encourage them to use it.
|
|
|
Post by dbcoach19 on May 13, 2014 18:51:54 GMT -6
We tell all of our guys they should be taking whey protein. When it comes to pre workouts and creatine type supplements, we'll take a look at what they buy or are planning to buy. If it's something we don't think they should take we will tell them, if it's something we are not against or take ourselves we don't push it on them but it's allowed. We also try to teach them how/when to take what they are taking.
|
|
|
Post by mariner42 on May 14, 2014 10:10:11 GMT -6
That being said, Creatine is great! But we can't encourage them to use it. There has to have been some kind of weird disinformation campaign against creatine at some point because I constantly find myself correcting peoples flawed ideas about it.
|
|
|
Post by msirishman on May 14, 2014 10:14:07 GMT -6
Isn't it funny how times have changed. 20 yrs ago, when i was in school, we had a huge tub of creatine in the coaches office and we just walked in and scooped us out some and threw it in our water before we worked out.
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on May 14, 2014 10:53:33 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by rcole on May 14, 2014 10:59:14 GMT -6
Unfortunately that is the case in most places now. They are on their own trying to figure out what works, what doesn't, what is a waste of money, what will actually harm them. Watch'em drown from the shore so that we don't get sued.
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on May 14, 2014 11:01:13 GMT -6
Or talk about good foods and nutrition and how to gain without supplements.
|
|
|
Post by rcole on May 14, 2014 11:08:11 GMT -6
That is exactly what I do. As you saw in my earlier post in this thread, we give out a nutrition guide and address the issue of supplements on the first page as being unnecessary. However, I do know they will still go buy them and use them. As a certified strength coach, it would be nice to have the opportunity to counsel them.
|
|
|
Post by spos21ram on May 14, 2014 11:08:22 GMT -6
Or talk about good foods and nutrition and how to gain without supplements. You can teach kids and adults the proper way to do something all you want, but you're going to get people always looking for an edge. It's human nature. Kids should at least be educated about different supplements. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on May 14, 2014 11:21:14 GMT -6
What do you tell them about drug? Tobacco? Alcohol? Just say no, same for supplements! Healthy diet of lots of lean protein, lots of milk and lots of fruits and veggies! Not rocket science!
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on May 14, 2014 11:27:58 GMT -6
www.wiaawi.org/Health/PerformanceEnhancingSubstances.aspxThe WIAA is against the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids and other performance enhancing substances (PES). Member schools shall devote time each year to positive programs which highlight prevention and education of the risks, benefits and adverse effects of PES. Coaches, teachers, sports medicine staff and school administrators who ignore or encourage the use of PES, provide and/or sell PES to athletes (including indirect distribution through a third party) shall be subject to their own school's provisions regarding discipline. DISCOURAGED--The WIAA identifies 'Restricted' substances. These restricted substances can be legally purchased, but are prohibited in connection with school programs. They include: Creatine,Caffeine-enhanced products, Energy drinks (e.g., Red Bull, Amp, Advance by PowerAde, Coke Blak), Herbal Caffeine, No Doz, Protein Powders and other substances as identified in the materials.Preventing athletes from taking supplements Coaches, parents, administrators and licensed athletic trainers should send a strong message that discourages the use of supplements for performance enhancement. This can be done through a positive example of healthy behaviors regarding exercise and diet. In addition there are messages you can send to your athletes to counteract the advertising ploys regarding supplements. These include: If it's too good to be true, it probably is. There's no short-cut to excellent performance; it takes hard work. Let the buyer beware: If someone can gain from your decisions, check it out thoroughly before you choose If you win naturally, you'll know it was you who won. No drug is harmless and free of consequences. Even natural substances in unnatural amounts may have short-term or long-term negative health risks. We advocate against the use of creatine and androstenedione because we believe they are too risky to be used by young athletes. There is not enough research on the long-range risks of creatine or androstenedione to make these substances worth the risk of using them. I'm your coach (or athletic trainer, or athletic director) and I don't think the use of these substances is a good choice for you, or for the team. The WIAA has provided the following informational avenues to our members: Articles in the WIAA Bulletin Pamphlets cards are sent to each member school?s Athletic Director. Wallet cards are sent to each member school?s Athletic Director. The DVD 'Make the Right Choice' which contains two videos that address the supplements issue, were sent to schools. Additional copies are provided upon request. Resource links on the WIAA web site. Public Service Announcements Discussion at the WIAA Annual Meeting, Sport Rule Meetings, and Area Meetings
|
|
|
Post by rcole on May 14, 2014 11:33:12 GMT -6
True. But drugs and alcohol are illegal and they will not enhance athletic performance. And they aren't going to discuss with you what is the best thing to get high with. They will discuss with you what they should buy at GNC. Good analogy, but not quite the same. Again, a certified professional should be able to lend guidance to a kid who is buying products from an almost unregulated bunch of snake oil salesmen. It is legal for the salesmen to market to them and legal for them to buy -- Therefore they can trust them, or at least we all know that is what they think....and everything on the interwebs is true.
|
|
|
Post by rcole on May 14, 2014 11:36:22 GMT -6
I understand and appreciate that those are the rules where you are. And we should all know the rules where we are. We should also be guiding the creation of those rules. And as educated professionals we should see to it that those banned substances deserve to be on the list. It should be updated regularly, adding items and removing them as the research supports it. I am of the opinion that an educated, certified professional should be allowed to give advise in his area of expertise, so long as that advise does not involve encouraging the kid to break the law.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on May 14, 2014 11:36:37 GMT -6
True. But drugs and alcohol are illegal and they will not enhance athletic performance. And they aren't going to discuss with you what is the best thing to get high with. They will discuss with you what they should buy at GNC. Good analogy, but not quite the same. Again, a certified professional should be able to lend guidance to a kid who is buying products from an almost unregulated bunch of snake oil salesmen. It is legal for the salesmen to market to them and legal for them to buy -- Therefore they can trust them, or at least we all know that is what they think....and everything on the interwebs is true. Then you've made John Knight's argument. Your best bet is to just say, "Don't buy anything from GNC".
|
|
|
Post by rcole on May 14, 2014 11:37:46 GMT -6
Yep, that is what my first post said. I would just like the opportunity to tell them more, since they are not taking that first bit of advise.
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on May 14, 2014 11:38:52 GMT -6
www.osaa.org/docs/health-safety/energydrinks.pdfenergy drinks are not illegal either www.osaa.org/docs/health-safety/supposition.pdfIn order to help prevent dietary supplement use: o School personnel, coaches, and parents should allow for open discussion about supplement use, but strongly encourage optimal nutrition and a well balanced diet. o Remind athletes that no supplement is harmless and free from consequences. o Remind athletes that there is no short cut to improved performance, it takes hard work. o Because they are not regulated, dietary supplements may contain impurities and illegal substances not listed on the label. o Adolescents that use dietary supplements are more likely to use steroids, continue usage into adulthood, and to engage in other high risk behaviors like smoking, drinking, and using drugs.
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on May 14, 2014 11:43:56 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Coach.A on May 14, 2014 12:09:47 GMT -6
John, I'm not from Ohio, but do they have a formal definition for a "nutritional supplement"? Is fish oil considered a "nutritional supplement" by your governing body? Is it only a supplement if it is in pill form vs. liquid? Is it only considered a supplement if I purchase it at a supplement distributer like GNC vs. a grocery store? What about Greens+ is that a supplement? Too much grey area in your definition.
|
|
|
Post by John Knight on May 14, 2014 12:13:38 GMT -6
I would say that the ODE would go by the NFHS definition of Nutritional supplement which uses the FDA definition!
Anything that is being promoted to accelerate physical growth or contribute to the control of weight loss or weight gain to enhance physical performance.
What is a dietary supplement?
Congress defined the term "dietary supplement" in the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA) of 1994. A dietary supplement is a product taken by mouth that contains a "dietary ingredient" intended to supplement the diet. The "dietary ingredients" in these products may include: vitamins, minerals, herbs or other botanicals, amino acids, and substances such as enzymes, organ tissues, glandulars, and metabolites. Dietary supplements can also be extracts or concentrates, and may be found in many forms such as tablets, capsules, softgels, gelcaps, liquids, or powders. They can also be in other forms, such as a bar, but if they are, information on their label must not represent the product as a conventional food or a sole item of a meal or diet. Whatever their form may be, DSHEA places dietary supplements in a special category under the general umbrella of "foods," not drugs, and requires that every supplement be labeled a dietary supplement.
|
|