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Post by jgordon1 on May 10, 2014 11:12:13 GMT -6
The talking about winning thread got me to thinking about goals. I (in general ) think they they are a bunch of BS. Can your team recite your goals? Do they even know what goals you have? Can you remember or a kid remember more than a couple? Are your practices aligned with your goals? Don't even get me started on motivational T-Shirts.. One Goal Phucking WIN. Whatever it takes with in the rules
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Post by gibbs72 on May 10, 2014 11:31:47 GMT -6
I like to use goals more like steps on a ladder. We will have 1 at a time. For example, last year during our pre-season camp we were lax in rallying 11 guys to the ball. So, we set a goal (step) that day of having all 11 guys rallying to the ball during every play of team defense that day. We did not accomplish it day #1, so we had the same goal (step) day #2. We got it. So, I moved us to a new goal (step) day #3 of no mis-communications. And we just goaled (stepped) our way forward.
I agree that having a standard set of goals posted is not very productive at the high school level, but managable and measureable goals help.
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Post by coachb0 on May 10, 2014 11:32:55 GMT -6
maybe you have a pretty clear view of what to do in order to win. but this is a complex task that has many subtasks that need to be achieved. to create awareness and focus on these tasks, it can help to talk about lower level goals to achieve the big goal.
you'd never just tell a kid to "win" and send him onto the field. there is always a "how" (goals) to the "what" (win)
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Post by CALIcoach on May 10, 2014 11:38:19 GMT -6
Coach, we always would set goals and we still do but our main focus now is the PROCESS. People get to wrapped up in goal but forget it's the "Process" that's important. It's the process that will make it possible to accomplish your goals.
What is the Process? It's the offseason, it's weight room, it's taking care of your body and mind, it's getting grades, it's practice, it's All the things we do behind the scenes, It's ALL THE HARD WORK....THE BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS
Lol!
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Post by jgordon1 on May 10, 2014 11:46:01 GMT -6
I like to use goals more like steps on a ladder. We will have 1 at a time. For example, last year during our pre-season camp we were lax in rallying 11 guys to the ball. So, we set a goal (step) that day of having all 11 guys rallying to the ball during every play of team defense that day. We did not accomplish it day #1, so we had the same goal (step) day #2. We got it. So, I moved us to a new goal (step) day #3 of no mis-communications. And we just goaled (stepped) our way forward. I agree that having a standard set of goals posted is not very productive at the high school level, but managable and measureable goals help. Exactly..One goal. is it measurable?..I would say yes..press play...We had a "leadership guru" speak to us as a staff. One of the things he said was that peiple think in processes (steps) not goals |
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Post by jgordon1 on May 10, 2014 11:49:41 GMT -6
Coach, we always would set goals and we still do but our main focus now is the PROCESS. People get to wrapped up in goal but forget it's the "Process" that's important. It's the process that will make it possible to accomplish your goals. What is the Process? It's the offseason, it's weight room, it's taking care of your body and mind, it's getting grades, it's practice, it's All the things we do behind the scenes, It's ALL THE HARD WORK....THE BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS Lol! One of the things that gets overlooked (or at least not talked about) IMO, is what is the culture of your program..What releationships do you have w/ your players and your players w/ each other. Not talking about Kumbaya |
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Post by coachb0 on May 11, 2014 6:47:18 GMT -6
I like to use goals more like steps on a ladder. We will have 1 at a time. For example, last year during our pre-season camp we were lax in rallying 11 guys to the ball. So, we set a goal (step) that day of having all 11 guys rallying to the ball during every play of team defense that day. We did not accomplish it day #1, so we had the same goal (step) day #2. We got it. So, I moved us to a new goal (step) day #3 of no mis-communications. And we just goaled (stepped) our way forward. I agree that having a standard set of goals posted is not very productive at the high school level, but managable and measureable goals help. Exactly..One goal. is it measurable?..I would say yes..press play...We had a "leadership guru" speak to us as a staff. One of the things he said was that peiple think in processes (steps) not goals Could you define what processes/steps is in contrast to goals? I think we'd agree overall, that winning is complex set of things that need to be accomplished. Is there a real difference between steps and goals or is it just semantics (english is not my mothertongue, so maybe that is why I got things confused or am simply not getting the different nuances of goals and steps, that's why I ask. It's not so much an argument as it is the willingness to learn.)? |
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Post by blb on May 11, 2014 7:10:35 GMT -6
In simplest terms, Goals are WHAT you want to accomplish; processes or steps are HOW you are going to accomplish those goals.
We use the acronym WIN (What's Important Now) with our Team, as in the most important thing in our program is whatever we're doing at the time. And if it wasn't important we wouldn't be doing it.
For example, right now the only thing we can do by rule to improve our Football team is lift weights. So that's how we WIN this time of the year.
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Post by coachjm on May 11, 2014 7:28:30 GMT -6
We do set goals on the first day of the first moment of the first practice. We have all the Seniors brainstorm out what they would like to get out of their Senior season and Their team. We right all of these things on the board and then have the entire team vote for the 3 items they value most. After this we define how we are going to measure each. We place them on a bulletin board and leave them up for the entire season and talk about what we need to do in each day to reach these. Last year our goals were to:
1. Have Fun
2. Win our League
3. Qualify for the playoffs
The last two are easily measurable, the first we defined as having 9 team activities organized by the players that the players wanted to participate in. One was they went to a road volleyball game as a team, one they went to Taco Bell on a Tuesday night, they came up with them and did them.
I think goals are important, I think it is good to know what your kids want to get out of their season and their experience.
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Post by CS on May 11, 2014 7:52:56 GMT -6
The talking about winning thread got me to thinking about goals. I (in general ) think they they are a bunch of BS. Can your team recite your goals? Do they even know what goals you have? Can you remember or a kid remember more than a couple? Are your practices aligned with your goals? Don't even get me started on motivational T-Shirts.. One Goal Phucking WIN. Whatever it takes with in the rules I think your problem with "Goals" is people don't really understand what a goal is. your example "WIN" that is a goal. Everything else is a step towards that goal. People think that steps are the goal and THATs the real problem |
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Post by larrymoe on May 11, 2014 8:51:07 GMT -6
Our first two goals are the same every single year
1. Win our conference
2. Get a home playoff game
From that point we get weekly goals as the playoffs is a week by week entity.
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Post by coachb0 on May 11, 2014 9:22:02 GMT -6
The talking about winning thread got me to thinking about goals. I (in general ) think they they are a bunch of BS. Can your team recite your goals? Do they even know what goals you have? Can you remember or a kid remember more than a couple? Are your practices aligned with your goals? Don't even get me started on motivational T-Shirts.. One Goal Phucking WIN. Whatever it takes with in the rules I think your problem with "Goals" is people don't really understand what a goal is. your example "WIN" that is a goal. Everything else is a step towards that goal. People think that steps are the goal and THATs the real problem what is so problematic about it if you understand that you reach lower level goals in order to accomplish another bigger goal? |
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Post by jgordon1 on May 11, 2014 18:30:34 GMT -6
I think your problem with "Goals" is people don't really understand what a goal is. your example "WIN" that is a goal. Everything else is a step towards that goal. People think that steps are the goal and THATs the real problem what is so problematic about it if you understand that you reach lower level goals in order to accomplish another bigger goal? right. Our goals read something like this. Win our first game..win our first conference game..win 5 games (non losing season) etc |
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Post by CALIcoach on May 11, 2014 19:58:48 GMT -6
what is so problematic about it if you understand that you reach lower level goals in order to accomplish another bigger goal? right. Our goals read something like this. Win our first game..win our first conference game..win 5 games (non losing season) etc Are you working on a new book coach? |
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Post by CS on May 11, 2014 21:39:03 GMT -6
I think your problem with "Goals" is people don't really understand what a goal is. your example "WIN" that is a goal. Everything else is a step towards that goal. People think that steps are the goal and THATs the real problem what is so problematic about it if you understand that you reach lower level goals in order to accomplish another bigger goal? Because they never reach the bigger goal. They set all of these little "goals" which are actually steps to what they really need to achieve. WIN that is a goal. Now what steps do we take to get there. |
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Post by coachb0 on May 12, 2014 5:03:48 GMT -6
what is so problematic about it if you understand that you reach lower level goals in order to accomplish another bigger goal? Because they never reach the bigger goal. They set all of these little "goals" which are actually steps to what they really need to achieve. WIN that is a goal. Now what steps do we take to get there. what is the difference in reaching a goal or taking a step? I don't want to needle you, but (as I said) as a non nativespeaker, I don't get the contrast really.. |
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Post by CS on May 12, 2014 5:15:20 GMT -6
Because they never reach the bigger goal. They set all of these little "goals" which are actually steps to what they really need to achieve. WIN that is a goal. Now what steps do we take to get there. what is the difference in reaching a goal or taking a step? I don't want to needle you, but (as I said) as a non nativespeaker, I don't get the contrast really.. Really the difference is in the scope |
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Post by jlenwood on May 12, 2014 5:25:52 GMT -6
Our first two goals are the same every single year 1. Win our conference 2. Get a home playoff game From that point we get weekly goals as the playoffs is a week by week entity. We set similiar goals, and I really don't think it is a good idea. For example, say you just have a run of bad luck-injuries-bad calls or whatever and you loose a few conference games early. It is early in the season and both of your goals realistically are unatainable. How does that affect the rest of your season? I would rather see us set more of the day to day goals, or some sort of wide reaching goals that can't be destroyed early on, something like WIN that blb stated for example. Our HC sets a very specific set of goals that all are tied to winning, and thats great when they are goals that you know you can meet. Our problem is we are in the midst of a HUGE talent deficit at our school and there is no way we can meet those goals. I saw it last year and it concerns me for this season that after about 3 games, our goals are going to be out the window. Two things I have always thought is that if you are going to set some long term goals some of them had better be attainable, if not your shooting yourself in the foot. Also, a goal is just a dream without a plan, so you better make sure you have a plan in place to reach those goals. |
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Post by blb on May 12, 2014 6:29:10 GMT -6
Really our goal is to Do the Best We Can on Friday night.
We don't sit down with the kids and set goals.
Our competitive (on the field) goals are:
1. Win first game 2. Win neighborhood games 3. Winning season (five wins) 4. Make playoffs (six wins) 5. Win conference championship 6. Win playoff game 7. Be competitive with everyone in our class in the state
Even if we are winless going into last game we still have opportunity to achieve a goal because we play a geographical rival.
The "steps" are Off-Season (Winter-Spring) and Pre-Season (Summer) player development, Pre-Season practice, and weekly preparation. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 12, 2014 6:51:27 GMT -6
Our first two goals are the same every single year 1. Win our conference 2. Get a home playoff game From that point we get weekly goals as the playoffs is a week by week entity. We set similiar goals, and I really don't think it is a good idea. For example, say you just have a run of bad luck-injuries-bad calls or whatever and you loose a few conference games early. It is early in the season and both of your goals realistically are unatainable. How does that affect the rest of your season? I would rather see us set more of the day to day goals, or some sort of wide reaching goals that can't be destroyed early on, something like WIN that blb stated for example. Our HC sets a very specific set of goals that all are tied to winning, and thats great when they are goals that you know you can meet. Our problem is we are in the midst of a HUGE talent deficit at our school and there is no way we can meet those goals. I saw it last year and it concerns me for this season that after about 3 games, our goals are going to be out the window. Two things I have always thought is that if you are going to set some long term goals some of them had better be attainable, if not your shooting yourself in the foot. Also, a goal is just a dream without a plan, so you better make sure you have a plan in place to reach those goals. Do want you want, but we were 0-3 three years ago and the goals remained the same. I think had we panicked and readjusted goals, then we don't win 6 in a row and win the conference. They're more expectations than they are goals perhaps. |
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Post by gators1422 on May 12, 2014 7:15:21 GMT -6
I agree with larrymoe, a team or program that is trying to establish itself may have more "goals", where as an established program or team will have expectations. Our first year we had a goal of winning our district, now that is expected. We focus on teams we expect to see in the playoffs right now, who will we see in the semis or the finals? Our kids expect it also so it feeds off itself. I've seen that there is a big difference between expecting and hoping.
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Post by jlenwood on May 12, 2014 10:20:58 GMT -6
We set similiar goals, and I really don't think it is a good idea. For example, say you just have a run of bad luck-injuries-bad calls or whatever and you loose a few conference games early. It is early in the season and both of your goals realistically are unatainable. How does that affect the rest of your season? I would rather see us set more of the day to day goals, or some sort of wide reaching goals that can't be destroyed early on, something like WIN that blb stated for example. Our HC sets a very specific set of goals that all are tied to winning, and thats great when they are goals that you know you can meet. Our problem is we are in the midst of a HUGE talent deficit at our school and there is no way we can meet those goals. I saw it last year and it concerns me for this season that after about 3 games, our goals are going to be out the window. Two things I have always thought is that if you are going to set some long term goals some of them had better be attainable, if not your shooting yourself in the foot. Also, a goal is just a dream without a plan, so you better make sure you have a plan in place to reach those goals. Do want you want, but we were 0-3 three years ago and the goals remained the same. I think had we panicked and readjusted goals, then we don't win 6 in a row and win the conference. They're more expectations than they are goals perhaps. I think you are missing my point. I get the goals that are oriented towards winning, but what I am saying is when we have no humanly possible way of beating some of the teams we will play this season a "seasonal" goal of winning the conference is simply not going to happen....and it is going to happen early. So why set goals that you know you can't acheive? For instance, 2 years ago we had a team that we knew could compete with anyone. We set high expactations and goals and they met or exceeded all of them. The following season we had no one that was comparable to replace the exiting seniors, so those goals would not be sensible (in my opinion). That is why I like the individual, everyday goals. Whether they be weight room goals, practice and so on. I also think for DIFFERENT talent level teams, you have to make goals that can be met. You still have to foster a competitive atmosphere, but to tell a team who is going to have a 145 pound kid as a starting linebacker (and be one of the bigger kids on the team) that your goal is to make it deep in the playoffs is just not a wise motivational tool. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 12, 2014 10:54:30 GMT -6
If you truly think you "have no humanly possible way" to beat the teams on your schedule, you're team's screwed anyway because you have given up already. So ya, setting goals is dumb.
I know talent levels change. The expectations and the goals do not. You can not just continually ebb and flow with goals if you expect to found a program that is consistently good. Really good programs do not change their goals and that's why they're really good. Not all football towns just breed football players. They breed an attitude about winning football games that doesn't change from year to year.
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Post by jlenwood on May 12, 2014 11:54:14 GMT -6
If you truly think you "have no humanly possible way" to beat the teams on your schedule, you're team's screwed anyway because you have given up already. So ya, setting goals is dumb. I know talent levels change. The expectations and the goals do not. You can not just continually ebb and flow with goals if you expect to found a program that is consistently good. Really good programs do not change their goals and that's why they're really good. Not all football towns just breed football players. They breed an attitude about winning football games that doesn't change from year to year. How do you get I have given up from my comments. You must be so friggin hard headed that no one can have an opposing view point or they "have given up". If I have given up, I probably wouldn't be pushing these kids in the weight room every day..... I probably wouldn't be going to baseball and basketball and any other sports games you can think of to let these kids know I am behind them and supporting them.... I probably wouldn't have all of my material prepared for the upcoming season and my film and other prep work done so that when camp starts we can hit it running and not be standing around looking lost.... Again, since you can't seem to read my post with out some flippant remark like "you've already given up", let me spell it out for you. I push my position players hard, they work their a$$ off for me. The other coaches coach hard and push their players, as a team we push them hard and have high expectations for each and every one of them, from the scrawniest freshman to our 4 year starting seniors. We set the yearly "win the league" goals and so on, and my thought was this could be counter productive if you take your chances of hitting those goals off the table early in the season, because we have about 35 kids (freshman to senior) and we are going up against teams with 70-80 players. Now if we had a bunch of top notch talented kids, he!! yeah pur goals are win related (league-playoofs-state etc), but since we are going to stuggle against these teams wouldn't it be at least something to consider to set more realistic goals. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 12, 2014 12:47:15 GMT -6
By setting more "realistic goals" you are telling your kids you don't think they'll be any good or can't be any good. You may not view it that way, but that is the way they will see it. If you do not believe they can or will win, neither will they. That is where I'm saying you have given up. You've already accepted your impending defeat. It has become a self fulfilling prophecy.
All that other stuff as far as sitting at a baseball game or organizing materials or watching film you mention mean nothing if you essentially tell your players "we're not going to be very good this year so let's set some realistic goals". You're cutting your own throat. What does it matter if you're the most prepared person on earth if you already think you're going to lose?
Have you ever read how many excuses you build into things? Well, they have more kids, or they have more talent or we lost a game early or whatever. You may not realize what you're saying, but either consciously or subconsciously your kids will. If you say you're going to win, your kids will believe it. Talent level, numbers, etc be damned. If you even give your kids the thought they might lose, they will find a way to do it.
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Post by jlenwood on May 13, 2014 4:44:54 GMT -6
By setting more "realistic goals" you are telling your kids you don't think they'll be any good or can't be any good. You may not view it that way, but that is the way they will see it. If you do not believe they can or will win, neither will they. That is where I'm saying you have given up. You've already accepted your impending defeat. It has become a self fulfilling prophecy. All that other stuff as far as sitting at a baseball game or organizing materials or watching film you mention mean nothing if you essentially tell your players "we're not going to be very good this year so let's set some realistic goals". You're cutting your own throat. What does it matter if you're the most prepared person on earth if you already think you're going to lose? Have you ever read how many excuses you build into things? Well, they have more kids, or they have more talent or we lost a game early or whatever. You may not realize what you're saying, but either consciously or subconsciously your kids will. If you say you're going to win, your kids will believe it. Talent level, numbers, etc be damned. If you even give your kids the thought they might lose, they will find a way to do it. I'll be honest with you, when I read this yesterday I thought that you just didn't get what I was saying and I was ready to shoot off another salty response. However, I was in a hurry to go somewhere so I held off (ironiclally a baseball game to watch my son). As I set there and kept thinking about the goal question and your responses to me, I realize that I am being the one who is "so friggiin hard headed". I am a big enough man to admit when my viewpoint was wrong, and I was wrong. Going into last season, we as a staff knew we were losing a ton of talent. We set our same goals but our expectations were so low it wasn't hard for the kids to meet those expectations....and they did. Looking back I realize how differently I coached, I coached to those expectations. Sometimes it takes a good argument or discussion to open your eyes to some coaching mistakes, and this did it for me. |
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Post by coachb0 on May 13, 2014 4:48:26 GMT -6
I think both views have their plausible aspects.
If you tell your kids, they win every game and this is the goal to meet and everything else is a failure, then after the first loss, kids will think, that the whole season is over. you'd not want that.
You'd also not want them to tell, that this year, doesn't matter how hard they work, they will be mediocre at least.
And here comes in the art of carefully formulating goals/steps/processes/whatever you call it that can avoid both above scenarios and instead motivate the kids by having a goal in mind, they think they can reach, if they work hard and at the same time believing it is worth working for that goal.
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Post by bigm0073 on May 13, 2014 6:21:26 GMT -6
At his point of the season our goals our more short term based. Unlike probably 95% of the programs we evaluate our kids every week with grade sheets. We do this in the winter/spring and also the fall. Each week the players get a grade sheet and it is turned in Thursday. No grade sheet = suspension. Players with multiple D's/F's are put on probabation. Problems continue = suspension. Each week every player in our program that works out with us after school has to look me in the eye and hand me a grade sheet (Behavior and work completion is on it too). Our goal for our players is to each week strive for at minimum a 3.0 GPA for the week. Our 2nd goal is to not have and Poor or Fairs marked for homework completions and behavior.
We have short term objectives in the weight room (Reaching certain lifting clubs.. We test about every 6 weeks or so) from there we see progress.
Over the summer another goal is for each player to pass our conditioning text in August (16 x 110's). Throughout the course of the spring we condition 2-3 times a week and work on reaching this goal.
Our number one goal right now is to win our first game of the season on August 28th. That is our first and only goal. From there our next goal is to win week # 2.
I know others may not like that process but I really do try and focus on the little things and small objectives. I really do not like putting the cart before the horse.
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Post by georgefred86 on May 18, 2014 19:39:15 GMT -6
We don't list any goals ... as those that have mentioned above ... it's all about just getting better each and every day. Our players, our school and our community know that we are all in! Get your kids to love to compete in everything they do, in our staff's opinion, that is the most important trait/goal in creating a culture and a program of winners.
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Post by coachb0 on May 21, 2014 0:01:32 GMT -6
youcandomore.net/2013/02/20/setting-then-reaching-your-goals/I was just affirmed again that goals are helpful. And what I always disliked about the goal "to win" was that it is often not in your hands to control the outcome of the game (we always wish we had that power). that's why I like the differentiation between outcome goals and performance goals. You'd also not stop working, when you won, because it focuses on the performance and not on the result. If your goal is winning and you've reached it, you don't have to work on the mistakes of the last game, you only have to prepare for the next fight. Also: I like to think of football teaching more important things than winning games. "Your program must have an overriding purpose, which is clearly visible and which teaches lessons beyond winning." Don Meyer
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