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Post by hsrose on Dec 6, 2007 10:07:44 GMT -6
Looking on the California (CIF) home page there are two files that contain the schools and classifications for the high schools that play football. After chewing on those files a bit, it shows that there are 1.072 schools playing football, with 1,833,107 players. These schools are divided into 3 divisions for the state playoff games.
In the NorCal section there are 414 schools and 574,198 players, while in SoCal there are 658 schools and 1,258,909 players.
I don't have the time to do a national search, but what are the numbers for your state? The reason I ask is that we have a BCS-like selection for our state-level playoffs rather than a true playoff structure like I hear about in most other states. With the number of teams, leagues, and only 3 levels (at state), I really can't see how a playoff structure could be put in place without revising the entire state structure. I guess that I'm wondering if there is a number of schools above which playoffs aren't viable in a "1 game per week for 5 weeks" environment.
Casey IHS Vikings
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 6, 2007 10:35:36 GMT -6
Here in Rhode Island you'll laugh at the number of teams compared to what you just posted about Cali. Our top Division (1) has 9 teams and it's one conference. Dvision 2 has 16 teams (8 in 2 conferences). Division 3 has 9 teams, and division 4 has 9 teams. And thats it, haha.
In Division 1,3, and 4 the top 4 teams make their divisions playofffs. Top 4 from 2A and top 4 from 2B make the Division 2 playoffs.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 6, 2007 10:44:57 GMT -6
I don't have the actual figures in front of me, but in Nebraska it is like this
Class A (28 largest schools- 16 qualify for playoffs) Class B (32 next largest- 16 qualify) Class C (remaining 11 man- divided in to two classes- C1 and C2. Each class has about 64 schools- 32 qualify) Class D- (8 man schools- under 110 enrollment- divided in to 2 classes, D1 and D2- about 68 per class, 32 qualify). There is also a renegade 6 man (not sanctioned currently) with 10 schools. If the number of schools reaches 18, 6 man will again be sanctioned.
In Class B-D, Playoffs start on the last Thurs. in Oct. (for ex., say it is Oct 29). They would then play following rounds on Wed. Nov 3, Mon Nov. 8, Sat Nov 13. Thurs Nov. 18- Sat. Nov. 20 are the championship games (that schedule may change next year). Class B would play their last reg season game on the last Thurs. in Oct., and starts playoffs on Wed., since they have a 16 team bracket rather than a 32 team.
Class A plays every week on Fri (or Sat.), but everyone else plays 5 games in 4 weeks (or 4 in 3).
District Champions (districts of 6-7 teams in lower classes) qualify (10 districts), followed by the top 22 teams in wildcard power points (excluding district champs).
The playoff system gets tweaked here a lot. Someone is always unhappy.
We were #16 in points, but because of geographic divisions (east-west) we were the #11 seed in the east... #6 seed was the #1 team in state (rankings, not power points), so we got to open the playoffs with them... so we got a raw deal this year. 5 years ago, we were 6-1 going in to our last game against another 6-1 team... we lost by 1 to go 6-2, they were 7-1... their reward for beating us was to play AT out place for the first round playoff game (which we won by 19).
That's our system... not saying it is good. Kind of like Pete Carroll's comment on the BCS... "It is what it is".
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 6, 2007 10:47:31 GMT -6
Here in Rhode Island you'll laugh at the number of teams compared to what you just posted about Cali. Our top Division (1) has 9 teams and it's one conference. Dvision 2 has 16 teams (8 in 2 conferences). Division 3 has 9 teams, and division 4 has 9 teams. And thats it, haha.
I coached in Wyoming many years ago... RI reminds me of that. We had 5 classes and there were no more than 12 teams in a class (most classes had 10).
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Post by realdawg on Dec 6, 2007 11:04:04 GMT -6
I am not positive but here in NC there are over 350 football playing schools. They are divided in 4 classifications 1a-4a, with about equal numbers in each class (about 90 schools per class). The for the playoffs all 4 classes are subdivided. (1a is for smallest schools, 1aa for next smallest schools and so on). We end up with 8 state champions (1a, 1aa, 2a, 2aa, 3a, 3aa, 4a, 4aa) and 64 teams in each classification make the playoffs and are seeded 1-16 based on conference finish and overall record.
That being said there are parts of NC which are crazy about high school football, and parts that are very luke warm.
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Post by pantherpride91 on Dec 6, 2007 11:39:03 GMT -6
Here in Ohio:
We have 6 Divisions with Div 1 being the largest and Div. 6 being the smallest
Div 1: 524 boys or more- 115 schools Div 2: 365-523 boys- 120 schools Div 3: 257- 364 boys- 119 Div 4: 187-256 boys- 119 Div 5: 131-186 boys- 121 Div 6: 130 or less boys- 121
Total: 715
Within each division there are 4 regions based on location. Out of each region they take the top 8 teams based on computer points. Iif you are ranked 10th in your region and have more computer points than #7 in another region you do not get in. There are some very unhappy teams, especially those in power house regions. You get rewared on Strength of schedule and also get points for games teams you beat go out and win. There have been many times an 8-2 9-1 team gets left out for a 5-5 or 6-4 team.
So 192 divided by 715= about 26% of the teams make it to week 11. We have a 10 week season then 5 rounds of playoffs.
Football is great here in Ohio.
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Post by hsrose on Dec 6, 2007 11:59:17 GMT -6
Regarding school size - We have the largest school in the NorCal section in our league, James Logan in Union City. According to CIF while they have 4.068 students, they are only the 17th largest football-playing school in the state. Our school is 2,001, the 2nd smallest in our 7-team league, and 446th in the state.
Casey IHS Vikings
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Post by lsrood on Dec 6, 2007 12:08:04 GMT -6
In PA there area 4 classifications:
PA counts the number of boys in grades 10-12
Class A 1-195 Boys with 151 High Schools Class AA 196-327 Boys with 151 High Schools Class AAA 328-539 Boys with 146 High Schools Class AAAA 540 and up Boys with 145 High Schools
Each class is divided up into the 11 districts that make up the PIAA.
The total is 593 High Schools in all 4 classifications.
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Post by semi-pro64 on Dec 6, 2007 12:08:55 GMT -6
Colorado has five 11 man classes, one 8 man class and one 6 man class.
5A-enrollment of 1641 and up will have 44 schools with 32 teams making the playoffs
4A-enrollment 1201-1640, 49 schools, 32 teams making the playoffs
3A-enrollment 601-1200, 39 schools, 16 teams in the playoff
2A-enrollment 276-600, 50 schools, 16 teams in the playoffs
1A-enrollment 126-275, 38 schools, 16 teams in the playoffs
They make changes to this system every 2 years, moving teams up and down. Both public and private play under this system. Most conferences get to 2 teams into the playoffs, the rest is determined via wild card points (strength of schedule, etc).
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Post by lsrood on Dec 6, 2007 12:15:11 GMT -6
I should add that the playoff qualifiers are determined by the individual districts and then the winners of the districts are plugged into the state playoffs.
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 6, 2007 12:23:31 GMT -6
PA counts the number of boys in grades 10-12 Small correction, it's actually grades 9-11, but the numbers are basically the same thing. Also, in PA you can choose to play up. Meaning, a Class A team can decide to play in Class AA...
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Post by lsrood on Dec 6, 2007 13:03:04 GMT -6
Grades 9-11 for year of reporting but what would be grades 10-12 during the 2-year classification playing dates.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 6, 2007 13:17:58 GMT -6
I forgot to mention that classification in Rhode Island is bases on number of boys and how successful the program is. Rhode Island re-aligns every 3 years or so. A Good example is Barrington HS. Just 8 years ago they were in Division III, now they are all the way up in Division 1. With a Div. 1 State Championship a couple years ago.
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Post by Coach Huey on Dec 6, 2007 13:18:58 GMT -6
not sure of exact numbers ... just did some quick math in my head ... but
There are 1056 Public HS in Texas that play 11-man football - divided into 5 classifications
117 Public High schools play 6-man football
I have no clue as to the number of private/parochial schools that play 11-man and/or 6-man football. Just guessing off top of my head I would say over 200.
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Post by coachcathey on Dec 6, 2007 13:45:59 GMT -6
In TN its broken down like so (I could have parts of this wrong.): 5 Div 1 Classes: A smallest AAAAA Largest In 4 of the 5 the top 4 from each region makes the playoffs In AA the top 3 from each region make the playoffs with 8? wildcards making the playoffs, based on strength of schedule and some other things. So thats 32 teams making the playoffs from each classification. Teams are allowed to play up in a division as well. There is the multiplier rule as well for schools that offer tuiton assistance to all students in the private schools, they don't offer athletic scholarships. It is I think 1.75 x enrollment and cannot force a team above 1 classification. Alcoa (AA) and Maryville (AAAA) are going for their 4 consecutive state championships this weekend, both are about 10 minutes from each other, they are rivals and play each other in the regular season as well. 2 Div 2 Classes: 16 teams ? -These are the complete private schools. I really don't know all the Div 2 details as I have never had to deal with that. You can probably find more information at: www.tssaa.org or known to a lot of people as T$$AA.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 6, 2007 13:49:17 GMT -6
I see a lot of states classify by BOYS enrollment. We've brought it up in our Regional meetings... never passes. We were forced up a class (division) one year with an enrollment of 21 boys (almost 3-1 girls).
Nebraska also realigns every 2 years, but they do so on a 3 grade count (9-11)... so your Seniors might have been involved in the count twice, your juniors once, sophs. twice...and so on. It makes a difference in small schools (we have an 8th grade class of 9... they will only be counted once though- when they are sophomores... so we might be bumped up a class for a cycle... we find out in about a week).
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Post by coachmacplains on Dec 6, 2007 15:09:17 GMT -6
South Dakota 11AA - 16 largest schools, 4 regions, seed based on power rating #1-16 (all qualify) 11A - Next 20 schools, 16 qualify in 4 regions, #s1-3 in region based on power rating, next 4 qualify as wild cards (IE Top three per region + four next best power ratings) 11B - Next 29 teams, same playoff qualification as for 11A. 9AA - Next 27 teams, same. 9A - Next 27 teams, same. 9B - Next 27 teams, same. School numbers are taken from ADM of student in grades 9-11 (boys & girls). Power rating is based on following: Class 11-A, 11-B, 9-AA, 9-A, & 9-B a. Each team will receive: 50 points win over upper division team 45 points win over same or lower division team 30 points loss to upper division team 25 points loss to same or lower division team b. Each team will receive 3 bonus points for each of their opponents wins during the season. 1) Opponents wins are tabulated each week even though your school has not yet played that opponent. 2) Schools do not receive bonus points for opponent s win over their school. 3) Teams who have an opponent whose 8th game is after the regular season has ended, will receive 1.5 bonus points per team played. c. A team s point rating will be determined by dividing the total number of points earned by the number of games played. d. One additional Point will be added to the final point average for an undefeated season. e. If a team plays the same opponent twice during the regular season then that opponent s wins will be x 6 points. f. For those schools (teams) having an out-of-state opponent on their schedule of games and the opponent plays a nine-week schedule, the first eight games listed on the schedule will be used in the tabulating of bonus points. **Computing Point Average. Point average for the season is computed to the nearest .000. For Class 11AA a. Each team will receive: 45 points for a win over a same division team (Class 11AA) 40 points for a win over a lower division team (Class 11A or 11B) 25 points for a loss to a same division team (Class 11AA) 20 points for a loss to a lower division team (Class 11A or 11B) b. Each team will receive 3 bonus points for each of their opponents' wins www.sdhsaa.com/athletics/football/Regular%20Season/Power%20Point%20Explanation.pdf
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Post by coachmacplains on Dec 6, 2007 15:26:43 GMT -6
I guess that I'm wondering if there is a number of schools above which playoffs aren't viable in a "1 game per week for 5 weeks" environment. I'm not sure what that means in terms of season length and playoffs. And is your question related to the logistics of so many teams from so many parts of the state as to be untenable under your presents system?
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Post by sls on Dec 6, 2007 15:48:34 GMT -6
IN 317 footbal playing schools. Count 9-12 boys and girls.
5A- 4495-1511 Kids 4a- 1502-913 3a- 912-609 2a- 608-444 1a- 443-97
Everyone makes a 6 round playoff with finals played thanksgiving weekend.
Our issue is the disparity between in class 5a 4500 vs 1500. Do we need another class with 317 schools? Of like the 25 class 5a champions, only 2 have been out of the top 10 in enrollment.
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Post by sls on Dec 6, 2007 15:49:47 GMT -6
Here in Ohio: We have 6 Divisions with Div 1 being the largest and Div. 6 being the smallest Div 1: 524 boys or more- 115 schools Div 2: 365-523 boys- 120 schools Div 3: 257- 364 boys- 119 Div 4: 187-256 boys- 119 Div 5: 131-186 boys- 121 Div 6: 130 or less boys- 121 Total: 715 Within each division there are 4 regions based on location. Out of each region they take the top 8 teams based on computer points. Iif you are ranked 10th in your region and have more computer points than #7 in another region you do not get in. There are some very unhappy teams, especially those in power house regions. You get rewared on Strength of schedule and also get points for games teams you beat go out and win. There have been many times an 8-2 9-1 team gets left out for a 5-5 or 6-4 team. So 192 divided by 715= about 26% of the teams make it to week 11. We have a 10 week season then 5 rounds of playoffs. Football is great here in Ohio. 524 is the smallest big school, how many boys would the biggest have?
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Post by pantherpride91 on Dec 6, 2007 17:57:51 GMT -6
Largest is 1246 went 0-10 this year...The number is number of boys grades 10-12
3rd and 4th largest played for the state title this year
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Post by minterj on Dec 6, 2007 18:23:22 GMT -6
Wisconsin... Unsure of total number of teams, but teams with above .500 record in conference play make playoffs. A bunch of criteria in place to narrow down to top 224 teams.
The 224 playoff eligible teams are broken into 7-32 team divisions by enrollment. Highest 32 enrollments in Division One and so forth.
Works pretty well.
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Post by wingtol on Dec 6, 2007 18:54:50 GMT -6
So let me ask this....... Do you think your state has too many or too few classes? Here in PA they have thrown around the idea of a 5A class for the biggest schools but I think there would be like 40 or so schools in it. I really like our 4 class system, just seems to me when you win a state title it means more when there are less classes and more schools going for the same goal. Whats everyone else think of their state?
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 6, 2007 18:56:23 GMT -6
Louisiana --Not sure of the enrollment number breakdowns-- but the top class probably ranges from around 1,000-2200 kids or so.
5A- 56 football teams (Largest classification) 4A --57 3A--60 2A--55 1A--56
Each class is broken up into approximately 9 or 10 districts by geography. Playoff Format- 32 teams from each class play in a 5 week playoff. District champs automatically qualify, the other selections are based on a mathematical power point formula. Teams are seeded 1-32 based on these power points in a single elimination format.
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Post by coachdjenkins on Dec 6, 2007 21:58:52 GMT -6
Louisiana -- Details 5A -- 1084 and Above -- 64 Schools (56 Football) 4A -- 678-1083 -- 58 School (57 Football) 3A -- 422-677 -- 65 Schools (60 Football) 2A -- 241-421 -- 60 Schools (57 Football) 1A -- 240 and Below -- 57 Schools (57 Football)
Non-Football B -- 99-240 -- 48 Schools C -- 98 & Below -- 44 Schools
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