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Post by td4tc on Mar 21, 2008 14:52:54 GMT -6
to be a better OC(i've only ever been on offence) should i be hanging with the DC's more often and listening to what gives them fits.do you star OC's out there go to the defensive side of this board to see what the "dark side" is up to? i think i know what they're up to but they are getting sneakier each year. would that be time well spent?
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Post by cmow5 on Mar 21, 2008 15:59:18 GMT -6
I always thought the same thing. Even at glazier clinics I wonder why more O coaches dont go to D coach session or vice versa. I am O-line and D-line coach so I work with both sides, but when I work my way up that would be something I would do.
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Post by CoachBorrelli on Mar 21, 2008 17:10:00 GMT -6
You might develop a drinking problem and a potty mouth.
Stay Away!
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Post by td4tc on Mar 21, 2008 17:28:22 GMT -6
i actually tried the defensive board and even posted something.i got chirped by the dark side boys. how could they tell i was from the good side? actually i learned alot.they talk dirtier than "our guys" but once you get passed that i think i'll learn something.
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Post by fbdoc on Mar 21, 2008 19:57:18 GMT -6
When I first started coaching (assistant varsity WR) I used all my playing experience as a high school QB and a college WR, and I thought I knew it all. After a few years, its amazing how much better I got when I finally started listening to what the O-line coaches and the Defensive coaches were saying.
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Post by kurtbryan on Mar 21, 2008 20:05:09 GMT -6
Great advice from earlier posts about becoming a better OC. YES, and I would only add a couple of things to that: 1. Not only hanging with DC's, BUT actually coaching a position on the D side of the ball, and/or becoming a Def. Coord. for a season or two. I was the Secondary coach at the collegiate level for 1 year and it was GREAT for me to see things from that perspective - NOT only drawing stuff upside down on the white board (talk about different), but learning/teaching the reads, rules, keys and tendency evaluation 2. Also, take some time to sit down with a DC or two, and SHOW them your offensive game film and playbook, and then Listen to how they would try to shut it down _________________________________________________ * On another note: Thanks to some of you guys, and others nationwide, our A-11 site got slammed with too many hits (that is a good thing) - so we are upgrading to a much larger server today in advance of the AFM cover story coming out next week. The new site should be up and running by Saturday morning the 22nd. Please accept that as a non-plug update...  and let's keep trading great ideas. KB |
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Post by schultbear74 on Mar 21, 2008 20:06:46 GMT -6
One of the great advantages of having coached on both sides of the ball is understanding the enemy.
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Post by deaux68 on Mar 21, 2008 21:41:00 GMT -6
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
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Post by jblackstock3779 on Feb 23, 2009 12:03:06 GMT -6
Our DC is great because he has been to a few places and knows what he is talking about. This may not always be true but a coach that stays in the game for at least 25 years is someone that you probably need to listen to as much as you can.
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 23, 2009 12:57:21 GMT -6
keep your friends close and your enemies closer
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Post by morris on Feb 23, 2009 14:04:39 GMT -6
You can't coach offense if you don't know defense. You hear Bill Williams say that a 100 times on any of his clinic stuff.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 23, 2009 14:05:35 GMT -6
Everyone on our defensive staff started off as offensive coaches; in fact, I think that all four of us were OL coaches.
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Post by dubber on Feb 23, 2009 14:14:51 GMT -6
Good to see how they do it....so you can know how to attack it.
Learning period is a good thing.
I like to study SW stuff, run and shoot stuff, and flexbone stuff.........but I don't use them
OC's who are clueless on OL play really piss me off.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 23, 2009 14:47:16 GMT -6
It really helps to have done both, and it helps more if you've done both in the same decade!
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 23, 2009 15:07:25 GMT -6
The very reason I came to Coach Huey's was to help my offensive thinking with answers as to how defenders read and react to various moves.
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Post by lochness on Feb 23, 2009 15:25:18 GMT -6
I have been an OC / offensive guy my whole career. I've gotten really good at understanding defenses because of my experience on offense. I've also gotten a lot better at defense because I've researched so many different offensive concepts at this stage, that I now have a good instinct for picking up what OTHER team's offensive schemes are trying to accomplish.
In terms of the "dark side" vs. the "good side..." it's funny, but I find that I'd actually MUCH rather deal with defensive guys, even though I am an offensive guy. Defensive guys seem pretty straight-forward and blue collar. Offensive guys are usually insecure egomaniacs who are concerned about their hair on the sideline and pound you to death with clinic talk and try to out-chalk you to the point of considering suicide.
Offensive Guy: Yeah, I get into my "Wheeler Dealer" set with "Napalm" personnel and we'll read the coverage off #2. If your flat defender widens, then we convert and check down. We'll read dig to post-wheel and that guy is coached to break off smartly and get into the dead area. If you listen to Tony Franklin (because I have lunch with him every day), he'll agree that running a mesh-smash concept will torch the rotating zone they're using. We then slide our protection AWAY from your Sam, and our back will pick up any dogs or blitzes. We make a "Hades" call on the line and check out of this protection if the Zulu is inverted. Then, I pop in my Urban Meyer video (which he gave me personally) and realize that your Fox is responsible for Y, so we are going to shift to "Sally" and run our "Poncho Concept" out of bunch trips, with a jet fake of course. The jet holds your guy here, and we can then boot or waggle, and hit our slot on a crossing route, unless it's the 2nd half, in which case of course we will have him run the Crazy Legs check and get up in the vacated seam like we have a purpose, people! Our line will post and set the protection to the field, and the QB has to make that pre-snap read and get the back to either chip and seal, or immediately release for a dump. Otherwise, our Nuke Screen that we picked up from our clinic with Oregon will be wide open...and I mean WIDE OPEN, son.
Defensive Guy: *Belch! Yeah, that's cool. I'm going to move this guy so we don't get outflanked, and then we're going to run our reads and play our designed defense. Don't get blocked and tackle the pr!ck with the ball.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Feb 23, 2009 16:03:15 GMT -6
As usual Loch, you don't disappoint, you made me laugh.
As a guy whose been both OC and DC, occasionally at the same time, I have found offense to be so much easier for me.
Calling the offense is like playing chess with people.
Calling the defense is like playing chess with people while fighting off Chuck Norris.
Offense I just have to know what I want to do.
It is much easier, all I need to know is:
What defense do they run? Do they blitz much?
Say no bad words.
Defense, I've got to draw up every play, stay up late at night trying to figure out how to stop it, get that all done before Tuesday, then on game day have to know my stuff AND what their team is going to do, and say bad words.
Preparing a defense is tougher to do than running my offense.
But again, what do I know?
Nothing probably
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 23, 2009 16:06:15 GMT -6
Except for "Swaption" and "Wichita," that was our whole offense!  I think I'm a defensive guy trapped in an offensive guy's body. ;D |
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Post by coachmoore42 on Feb 23, 2009 16:07:28 GMT -6
Lochness, that might be the funniest thing I have ever heard.
The more true it is, the funnier it is.
I'm currently a DC, but I have done both. I absolutely agree with the idea of learning what the "other side" is up to. I go to more offensive clinic talks than defensive.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 23, 2009 16:09:35 GMT -6
Offense is definately easier, IMO.
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Post by endersgame on Feb 23, 2009 16:52:29 GMT -6
I think offense is easier to learn simply because you only have to learn what you're trying to do. You're dictating to the defense. Plus, concepts have sweet and easy names so that when you use them, not only do you sound cool ("smash," anyone?) but everyone else knows EXACTLY what you're talking about as well.
Meanwhile, on defense you have to know lots of terminology to just understand half of what these DCs are saying on here. Once you know that, you then have to account for virtually every possible action an offense (and each man on offense) can take. And you have to teach it to your guys, too!
Plus, it's a hell of a lot easier on the mind reading the offensive boards then the defensive boards. For example, I know EXACTLY what y-stick is, so it's easy to conceptualize. Defensive guys don't have all these fancy names for actions. I feel sorry for the offensive guys who are trying to learn defense when it's not their strong suit- it's very difficult, not only with basic things like learning common jargon but even conceptualizing defensive actions in your mind when you've been learning offense for so many years.
That being said, I prefer defense. Always have, ever since I discovered I really only liked playing defense in various games- pick-up football games, team handball, street hockey, etc. Plus, I always thought defense was underrated, and being a small, scrawny kid (still am) that really fit my character: always underrated but playing smart and scrappy, which I believe to be the essence of playing defense.
One more thing... Ever notice how there's no defensive coaches out there selling their "New and Improved Nuclear-Explosion-Armageddon-Judgment-Day" fire zone blitz package DVD set for 200 smack-a-roos? I find that GENERALLY offensive coaches are a bit more focused on their egos, reputation, and bank account than defensive or defensive-minded coaches.
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Post by jhanawa on Feb 23, 2009 16:59:12 GMT -6
Offensive Guy: Yeah, I get into my "Wheeler Dealer" set with "Napalm" personnel
Loch, LMAO....
Ah, the smell of cut grass and Napalm in the morning, nothing better....
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Post by coachcb on Feb 23, 2009 17:33:52 GMT -6
I have found that defense is tougher to learn for some guys because they want to take an offensive mindset when it comes to fronts.
An offensive guy will look at a defense and say formations A, B, C, and D will be good this week.
He then looks at the opposing offense and goes "we need to change into front D, E, F, AND G in order to stop this offense", regardless of whether or not each front keeps with our general philosophy.
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Post by airman on Feb 23, 2009 17:55:23 GMT -6
why i like hanging with DC's
1. To see the clueless look they have on their face when you take that new defense they designed on paper destroy it along with their confidence in it. To confuse a dc just attack their confidence level. as I say, beat the press corner early and often and you will see cover 3.
2. You drink for free most times. They just keep buying rounds.
However you better be willing to shoot jagerbombs, UV bombs or blue UV bombs and hard stuff like johny walker red between beers.
3. they know where all the strip clubs are and the cost of lap dances. some of the girls even know them by there first name.
4. have an exit plan in advance. you might need it when the fight breaks out or when defensive coaches still think they can play which means they are going to try and tackle one another.
3.
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Post by kylem56 on Feb 23, 2009 18:23:28 GMT -6
In my opinion, the more defense you know, the better you are as a OC. I have always been an offensive line coach and recently added the title of Co-OC . I have always understood defensive fronts and stunts cause i have also coached the D-Line the last year 3 years but the most important aspects of a defense, the secondary is something I have had to realy work at learning. The HC is our Def Coordinator and his defensive knowledge has helped me tremendously in gameplanning. But enough of my rambling.. point being I try to dip into at least 1 defensive session every clinic I go to and love to sit down with good DC's and get their thoughts on my offense.
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Post by kylem56 on Feb 23, 2009 18:24:32 GMT -6
You might develop a drinking problem and a potty mouth. Stay Away! The HC I have worked for the last couple years is also the DC. Explains all my great habits I have developed in my short career thus far  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2009 18:27:28 GMT -6
You might develop a drinking problem and a potty mouth. Stay Away! And cheer when your own QB gets sacked...it's rough I cant really talk $hit, I was a DC who converted to OC |
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Post by touchdowng on Feb 23, 2009 18:39:59 GMT -6
td4tc
The fact that you are almost asking permission tells me that you NEED to hang out with some defensive guys. Do you think they're not spying on you? Those guys will bend, fold, mutilate, spindle and ruin any chance you have of having any offensive success. Why wouldn't you "spy" on them?
I'm a former QB who became a DC then went back to the enlightened side and became a HC/OC. My time on the dark side has served me well.
Go forth and learn more.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Feb 23, 2009 18:53:56 GMT -6
touchdowng,
that's exactly my experience.
One of the reasons is that when I started coaching, (some say the ball was rounder than it is now)
when I started the HC was usually the OC also.
To get into coaching, you had to start at the bottom and that usually meant JV coach, and then that usually meant the OTHER guy.
Since there was usually only 2 JV coaches, when you get in, the old guy that teaches shop class has been the JV coach for 10-12 years and they throw you in with him.
You get to be the OTHER JV coach, which usually means defense.
One of my most told stories is when I was getting our equipment for our first JV practice, the old, craggy, A.D. who walked with a limp (they all did then) was helping me get my stuff ready.
I asked him for the JV footballs and he threw me a shoe, and said in a gravely voice, "Here this is all you'll need for a while."
It was an old high top tennis shoe that he found somewhere in the locker room.
-he was actually serious. I practiced with that high top tennis shoe vs. the option for a long time. We got two J5V footballs for the entire season.
Oh, those were grand days indeed.
That's where I started, that's where most of us old guys got to start.
It doesn't seem to be like that anymore, I know some young 20-somethings that are way up on the foodchain.
OJW
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Coach Unk
Junior Member
[F4:coachdonjones]
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Post by Coach Unk on Feb 23, 2009 19:55:13 GMT -6
I am a defensive guy who just got switched to be the OC. I find defense much easier to understand and working the offense is taking time to learn. When I attend clinics I usually do more defense/ special teams than offense. Plus, alot of coaches love to be concerned with the offense and pay small attention to the defensive side.
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and let's keep trading great ideas.
I think I'm a defensive guy trapped in an offensive guy's body. ;D
