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Post by jackedup on Jan 8, 2014 9:51:36 GMT -6
Just a little insight to my situation. I just finished my first year as HC. I have a talented group of Jrs who did well on Frosh and JV with the same HC. When I took the job I did not retain that guy because he was a dad of one of the Jrs and my administration did not want me to. There are some sketchy things with this guy. We finished 5-5 with A LOT of difficulty due to that guy undermining me the whole way with his former players and now with their parents.
Now that the offseason has started (in Dec), his son and those select players have decided not to train with the team but on their own. Also, they continues to try and rally parents against me. I have the support of my administration because they realize how absurd this guy is.
My question is, would it be crazy to cut his kid since he is becoming cancerous? I have a football evaluation rubric that I use for cuts. The kid is okay. Not amazing. It might hurt at first but I think in the long run, it might save the program. But I know this guy will take things to another level.
What are your thoughts?
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Post by CS on Jan 8, 2014 10:15:17 GMT -6
Even if he was amazing I would cut him. I would try and resolve the conflict with the parent first and if it doesn't get better than boot him. The trouble he is causing is way more of a detriment than losing a "good" player.
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Post by joelee on Jan 8, 2014 10:23:39 GMT -6
Cut him. But be aware that the parent will then try even more to undermine you with the others.
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Post by calhoun44 on Jan 8, 2014 10:27:16 GMT -6
I think you have to cut him, this kid is dividing your team and asking of players to be loyal to a former coach. This is a horribly unfortunate situation but it sounds like this May be the only way.
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Post by jrk5150 on Jan 8, 2014 10:33:25 GMT -6
I'm not a HS coach, nor am I a teacher. But I am a senior manager in the business world, and employee relations and manager development is part of my job.
You may need to consider confronting the players. I'd put it all right there on the table for them - not the details, but that they are going to lose the battles and the war if they keep it up. Realizing I have incomplete information, I'd probably do something like acknowledge their success and relationship with this prior coach. But then I'd tell them that this is life - he's not here anymore, the decision was made with the full support of the administration, and it is what it is. What happens from here is up to them - if they continue on this path, some or all of them are going to be done with HS football, and that can never be reversed, they will never have a chance at a re-do. They need to look in the mirror, and at their teammates, stop listening to adults that don't have their best interests in mind but only their own selfish interests, and decide for themselves how they want to finish their HS careers. And that they are welcome to be part of the program, in fact you'd love for them to be part of the program (and all that entails), but that if they elect not to, you are just fine moving forward without them, no skin off your a*s at all.
Then I'd tell them if any of their parents want to speak to you that's fine, but this is a team matter, and that you don't intend to involve them yourself at this point in time.
And you should make sure you have either someone from your administration in the room, or a reliable AC (or both) as a witness(es) so they can't change up what you said.
But before you cut someone, I think you need to be very sure you have accurate details on specific actions taken by that individual that are "firing" offenses. Because if you're wrong, if he's not the ringleader you thought he was, you just ruined the only HS football experience he'll ever be able to have.
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Post by huskerhoyahawk on Jan 8, 2014 10:46:48 GMT -6
Coach, I certainly don't envy you in this situation. However, if the administration has your back, I'd say cut him. Sounds like you have a case to say that the kid was provided with the expectations and didn't follow them.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 8, 2014 10:55:45 GMT -6
Sit the kids down and lay it out as this- You either train with the team, or you aren't on the team. You either buy into what we're doing or you not a part of it.
They either do it or they don't. I don't know that you need to "cut" anyone. Let them cut themselves.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 8, 2014 11:06:16 GMT -6
Id pull them into a meeting.
Id put all of the kids who are lifting with the team and in your program on one side of a long rope. Then Id tell the kids that the rest of the league/ their schedule is on the other side.
Then Id turn to the kids who don't lift with the team and Id say " I am not sure which end of the rope youre on yet or which way you intend to pull- but I know this, youre with us or youre against us"
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Post by blb on Jan 8, 2014 11:06:17 GMT -6
Can you cut a kid from a Fall sport in January?
Ask him what night his team is going to play - if it's not same night as yours, maybe you'll come watch.
jrk's suggested approach makes sense to me.
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Post by casec11 on Jan 8, 2014 12:45:37 GMT -6
Jrk' s approach sounds best. dont cut a kid cuz the dads a dick.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 8, 2014 12:48:10 GMT -6
Jrk' s approach sounds best. dont cut a kid cuz the dads a dick. You wont have many players left!!! just kidding. |
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Post by kcbazooka on Jan 8, 2014 13:20:49 GMT -6
i agree with casec - how can you cut a kid because his dad's a dick? is the kid undermining you too -- do you have something in writing that a prospective player has to be in your off-season program (in a lot of states that is against the rules). This fall will you allow students who have not been in off-season conditioning to be on your team. If you are going to cut these students you shouldn't allow any new students next fall.
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Post by newhope on Jan 8, 2014 13:44:02 GMT -6
Agree that jrk has the right approach to this. It's a stronger statement if you make it with an administrator present.
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Post by shocktroop34 on Jan 8, 2014 13:44:40 GMT -6
I'm not a HS coach, nor am I a teacher. But I am a senior manager in the business world, and employee relations and manager development is part of my job. You may need to consider confronting the players. I'd put it all right there on the table for them - not the details, but that they are going to lose the battles and the war if they keep it up. Realizing I have incomplete information, I'd probably do something like acknowledge their success and relationship with this prior coach. But then I'd tell them that this is life - he's not here anymore, the decision was made with the full support of the administration, and it is what it is. What happens from here is up to them - if they continue on this path, some or all of them are going to be done with HS football, and that can never be reversed, they will never have a chance at a re-do. They need to look in the mirror, and at their teammates, stop listening to adults that don't have their best interests in mind but only their own selfish interests, and decide for themselves how they want to finish their HS careers. And that they are welcome to be part of the program, in fact you'd love for them to be part of the program (and all that entails), but that if they elect not to, you are just fine moving forward without them, no skin off your a*s at all. Then I'd tell them if any of their parents want to speak to you that's fine, but this is a team matter, and that you don't intend to involve them yourself at this point in time. And you should make sure you have either someone from your administration in the room, or a reliable AC (or both) as a witness(es) so they can't change up what you said. But before you cut someone, I think you need to be very sure you have accurate details on specific actions taken by that individual that are "firing" offenses. Because if you're wrong, if he's not the ringleader you thought he was, you just ruined the only HS football experience he'll ever be able to have. You sound like a coach to me. A wise one, at that. My thoughts: Exhaust all means of communication. Have one more conversation and attempt to sell the kids on your vision. What roles you see them playing. Offer them a chance at future leadership if they can follow your lead. In other words, give those kids a chance to buy in. Sometimes kids start off as your biggest adversary and over time become your biggest ally. I have had experience in this type of matter. One time, I won a kid over and it was a beautiful thing. In another situation, I let a kid go and it was...a beautiful thing. Every situation is different. We all sit here behind our keyboards, but you are the one that is there. You can speak to the climate of your program better than anyone else. If the "cancer" is that deep, then do what you have to do. It's YOUR program. Just make sure you are willing to live or die with the decision. I hate to go all "churchy" on you, but if you're a praying man, asking for a little divine intervention never hurt. |
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Post by wingtol on Jan 8, 2014 13:53:41 GMT -6
That is a very slippery slope to walk in the off season. As far as I know there are no states where you can make the off season mandatory for players. Could be walking into a battle you don't want to fight trying to cut a kid in the off season because he is not lifting with your team. Now once the season is mandatory then you can re-evaluate how he fits into the program and if you are having serious problems then take action. As many have already said you need to have a come to Jesus with the kid, hard to tell from your info but I have usually found out most of the time kids are a lot more rational than their parents.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 8, 2014 18:57:47 GMT -6
We cannot cut a kid in the off season and we definitely can't cut a kid just cause his father is an a$$. You can't make your off season workouts mandatory anyway. You know this guy would go to the local paper and also would have a very strong lawsuit against the school if you did cut right now.
You need to meet with the kid, father, and ad all together.
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Post by jackedup on Jan 8, 2014 22:11:07 GMT -6
Thanks for the words guys.
You're right. I can not cut a kid in the off-season or for not participating in workouts. But one of the things our athletic department has done this year is design a GREAT rubric for cuts. And the one area that I included for football (that my AD and principal loved) was a Commitment category. We already have Attitude and Conditioning, Offensive Skills, and Defensive Skills. Adding Commitment as an evaluation piece will allow me to score them on their participation in "TEAM ACTIVITIES such as weight room, camps, 7v7, etc.
The thing about the kid is he's now beginning to get other kids to not go to the weight room. That's the thing that really drives me mad.
I appreciate the advice. I'm sure it's not going to be an easy couple of months till something comes to light.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 9, 2014 3:54:25 GMT -6
Thanks for the words guys. You're right. I can not cut a kid in the off-season or for not participating in workouts. But one of the things our athletic department has done this year is design a GREAT rubric for cuts. And the one area that I included for football (that my AD and principal loved) was a Commitment category. We already have Attitude and Conditioning, Offensive Skills, and Defensive Skills. Adding Commitment as an evaluation piece will allow me to score them on their participation in "TEAM ACTIVITIES such as weight room, camps, 7v7, etc. The thing about the kid is he's now beginning to get other kids to not go to the weight room. That's the thing that really drives me mad. I appreciate the advice. I'm sure it's not going to be an easy couple of months till something comes to light. Do the kids know about the rubric and the commitment category? |
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 9, 2014 7:31:10 GMT -6
Heres a few thoughts:
1) worry about only what you can control- you cant control the dad, you can be civil and even reach out to him and you can certainly have a meeting with his son to get your own relationship improved there.
2) there are hundreds of personalities to deal with in a single year as a head coach- you have to take the good with the bad in your kids, coaches and parents and administrators. Be tolerant, welcoming and grateful for the kids and coaches and admin that are clearly in your corner. Don't push the others away, youll need them too to survive, particularly if its a small school and small town.
3) have complete confidence in yourself, your way, your program, your methods and don't bend on those things. stay the course. that's huge.
in the end youll be coaching somewhere else someday. just always keep that in mind.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 9, 2014 7:34:50 GMT -6
Wouldn't the rubric only apply to mandatory things in season? That still doesn't help you for this situation. If he misses practices and workouts in season, by all means get rid of him.
Your rubric, although approved by the admin, would not hold up if you cut the kid in the off season or graded him on off season activities. The dad would have a field day.
Im also not a fan of putting skill set on the rubric unless the score doesn't effect anything. You can't cut a kid cause he sux at football.
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Post by jackedup on Jan 10, 2014 20:14:00 GMT -6
spos21ram,
Yes and no. The admin and athletic dept worked together to create a rubric that all the sports teams can use. But in terms of cutting a kid because he sux at football, yes you can. I keep 42. This past year I cut 10. I tried to move some jrs down to JV that I thought could develop but ended up cutting 10 who could/would never see the field.
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Post by jackedup on Jan 10, 2014 20:18:31 GMT -6
Thanks guys. I'm going to try and play this out. The kids do know about the commitment portion of the evaluation. Last year they were pretty good about being invested. I'm concerned about this offseason but will continue to push. It'll get testy as the off-season goes on. But, hey, that's why we get paid the big bucks!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 20:29:36 GMT -6
spos21ram, Yes and no. The admin and athletic dept worked together to create a rubric that all the sports teams can use. But in terms of cutting a kid because he sux at football, yes you can. I keep 42. This past year I cut 10. I tried to move some jrs down to JV that I thought could develop but ended up cutting 10 who could/would never see the field. My post will probably totally hijack the thread, but I got to ask: how big of a school is this? 52 is not a big number. I couldn't imagine having 52 kids come out for football and cutting ten of them  |
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 10, 2014 20:33:25 GMT -6
Is this a private school? I've never heard of cutting kids in football. Even our power house private schools don't cut. Our freshmen played the states best private school last year and they have 55 kids just on the freshmen team. Their varsity has dressed over 100 players some years.
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Post by jackedup on Jan 10, 2014 21:01:01 GMT -6
Not a big school at all... 1200. But our demographics are really screwy. We have some affluent kids and some REALLY REALLY low socioeconomic kids. At other schools I've been, sure 52 isn't a bad number for varsity. But being that it was my 1st year and there were some discipline issues that were brewing before I took the job, I figured I had to set high expectations for who we took. I didn't want a large number of kids where I would always be putting out fires. Also though, I am positive when I say there isn't a school in the state of MD that has over a 100 on varsity. Hell, I would love to have the means to dress and fit that many. But my practice facilities wouldn't be able to handle that big of a program.
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beebe
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Post by beebe on Jan 11, 2014 7:41:58 GMT -6
Of course football teams can cut players....most don't do it because of the need for bodies and coaches commitment to the total kid and such....I know we have a no cut policy as coaches at our school...we keep everybody and try to develop them to be their best...most of the time kids weed themselves out anyway....potential problems means you must communicate your expectations early and often with both the player and the parents...sounds like you should have had a conversation with the father l long time ago. It may have proved fruitless, but i believe that you have to try to communicate with him to resolve this issue.
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Post by blb on Jan 11, 2014 8:09:22 GMT -6
We can't (and I wouldn't) cut kids due to lack of participation in off-season activities.
I do explain to them at Team Meeting in May that how they perform at our three-day Summer Camp and on our Physical Fitness Test prior to the start of Two-a-Days will in part determine where they are on depth chart first day of practice.
Normally the kids who attend most Summer Conditioning Workouts will do better on PFT.
That gives them some accountability and us some objective measures for where players begin Pre-Season.
As far as the recalcitrant Dad and other parents, we have a meeting every June where we lay out expectations for everybody - players, coaches, parents.
After that, if they refuse to GWTP, it's their fault-problem. |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 11, 2014 11:53:07 GMT -6
1. You can't "cut" a kid in the off-season. You can try but you will fail; I can't think of a single administration that would allow it.
2. You CAN make it known that you won't play kids that don't make X% of off-season workouts. You'll take off-season sports into account here but kids that sit on their butts in the off-season can do so in-season. You might still have road blocks in this situation.
3. You can incentivize your off-season program too. Poundage clubs, lifting competitions, and other fun activities are great ways to get kids involved.
4. I believe that off-season participation in either another sport and/or weight room time should count towards lettering requirements. The reality is pretty simple; teams with poor weight room attendance lost. Teams with high weight room participation win.
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Post by jackedup on Jan 11, 2014 13:35:38 GMT -6
Everything you guys have said, I've done in some way or another. I've talked with the father/ex-coach many times. I've laid out my expectations of him to him probably 3-4 times. That's why I'm not hiring him this year. I've spoken to him very frankly about his son and what is going on. My concern from the beginning is that if it continues, I need to cut him and his cancerous ways out of the program.
That has steam rolled into peoples' views on cutting and what you can and can not do. As I've mentioned previously, I know you can't cut during the off-season. BUT you can hold them accountable (and I do 2-3 coachcb) and their accountability in the off-season should be held against them. If a player doesn't meet the required % of workouts, they have additional workouts till they reach that number. Those that play another sport are given full credit for workouts and if they happen to make a workout during their season, they can bank those days. (I get this with wrestlers mostly.) But back to the original question, if a player was cancerous, is it absurd to cut him?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 11, 2014 13:57:06 GMT -6
To the original question--the answer is obviously "no", it is not absurd to cut a cancerous athlete. The less obvious part of that answer is going to be that everyone's definition of cancerous will be different.
I think it is important for everyone here to remember that when discussing things you "can and can't" do, football is different all over the country. Each district will have it's own rules and regulations.
Also, when discussing team sizes and numbers, I think it is important to remember that many coaches on this board structure things differently. In this case, 42 is a MONSTER NUMBER of kids if "Varsity" is the kids that play only on Friday night, and ANOTHER group of 40-50 kids that ONLY play JV, and A THIRD group that only plays freshman--that 42 is probably more than sufficient. If you dress everyone in the program (except maybe freshmen) and call that your "varsity", then cutting when you have 52 kids might be a tougher choice.
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