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Post by coachcb on Aug 20, 2013 12:01:05 GMT -6
I've been coaching for fourteen years and three of those have been spent at the youth level, in two different leagues.
One league runs a playoff system with seeding, quarterfinals, semifinals, and a league championship. It's ridiculously competitive.. It's pretty sad to hear the mother of a ten year old state that "their playoff seeding is screwed" after a loss. There are very few good coaches in the league; they're all hyper competitive and aren't focused on the kids. This is the type of league where kids are categorized as MPP (minimum playing time players) early on and they rarely get more than the minimum time.
The other league I worked in ditched the playoff system and just added those games to the schedule. They did do because they were running into the same problems I described in the other league. These league was much more enjoyable to work in because the added bullchit pressure of the playoffs was removed. Most of the whacko coaches disappeared when they stopped the playoff system. I guess it just wasnt "Madden" enough for them. We were still really competitive; we keep score for a reason. But you didn't see the MPP issue pop up very often.
I talked to the guys that operate the competitive league last year and they complained constantly about the coaches and the rest of the crap in the league. But, they got really defensive when I told them that toning down the competitive nature would solve a lot of problem.
They told me that the playoffs were there for the kids and it was in their best interest to keep them around. I told them that was a bunch of crap; the playoffs were for the coaches and the parents. The kids just wanted to play and have fun.
Thoughts?
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Post by Chris Clement on Aug 20, 2013 13:02:49 GMT -6
Letting everyone into the playoffs is a good start, and make sure that you pair off eliminated teams in exhibition games afterward. Youth teams change a lot over the season, so you shouldn't screw a team for not finding itself until a few weeks into the year. Just deemphasizing the championship a bit will help. They can still have a championship, just don't make it quite so over the top.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 20, 2013 13:47:24 GMT -6
Let me pose this as a question. How do the kids benefit from a playoff system? How does it contribute to their development any more than just tacking on extra games?
The middle school, freshman/ sophomore, JV teams in this state don't have a playoff system because they've been tagged as completely developmental.
Why should youth be treated any other way? Especially when it's evident that its detrimental in some ways?
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Post by Chris Clement on Aug 20, 2013 14:27:34 GMT -6
I'm not opposed to youth playoffs within reason. It's a houseleague, I assume, so it's just a slight formalization of games that would be played anyways. I don't think teams that go deep into the playoffs should get significantly more games than teams that get bounced.
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 20, 2013 19:47:31 GMT -6
I've posted a lot at DumCoach that I think playoffs are ridiculously overdone. Unless a league is large, playoffs aren't necessary to determine a champion, and it cheapens the season competition when more playoffs are used than necessary. In many leagues the setup is ridiculous in that a team can coast thru the season with a losing record, then just get hot at the end, beating teams they lost to previously, to win a trophy. If you want to play more games, just extend the season; why knock teams out?
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Post by coachcb on Aug 20, 2013 20:26:17 GMT -6
I've posted a lot at DumCoach that I think playoffs are ridiculously overdone. Unless a league is large, playoffs aren't necessary to determine a champion, and it cheapens the season competition when more playoffs are used than necessary. In many leagues the setup is ridiculous in that a team can coast thru the season with a losing record, then just get hot at the end, beating teams they lost to previously, to win a trophy. If you want to play more games, just extend the season; why knock teams out? My problem is the overly competitive nature it develops within the league. Everything is geared towards not only making the playoffs but seeding within said playoffs. There are way too many kids getting the bare minimum of playing time. There are too many guys coaching that are only there for the possibility of getting a little gold medal and not the kids. The patents are screaming whack-a-dos who keep friggim stats on games in case there's a "tie breaker" situation for playoff position... It's seriously freaking crazy. The league without the playoffs was all about development. You were expected to get all the kids as much time as possible, not just minimum time. In fact, one coach was let go because half of his team sat on the sidelines during blowouts. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 21, 2013 10:45:15 GMT -6
I've posted a lot at DumCoach that I think playoffs are ridiculously overdone. Unless a league is large, playoffs aren't necessary to determine a champion, and it cheapens the season competition when more playoffs are used than necessary. In many leagues the setup is ridiculous in that a team can coast thru the season with a losing record, then just get hot at the end, beating teams they lost to previously, to win a trophy. If you want to play more games, just extend the season; why knock teams out? My problem is the overly competitive nature it develops within the league. Everything is geared towards not only making the playoffs but seeding within said playoffs. I would think that in most leagues, for most games the existence of playoffs would tend to make them less competitive, because the chances of a regular season game affecting the final standings would be reduced. There are some seeding systems and situations that would actually benefit a team for throwing a game, and many others where games become "meaningless" toward the end. I have a feeling something else changed that affected the parents' and coaches competitive nature, and that the adoption or dropping of playoffs was a symptom of that rather than a cause. |
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Post by mahonz on Aug 21, 2013 22:39:41 GMT -6
I've been coaching for fourteen years and three of those have been spent at the youth level, in two different leagues. One league runs a playoff system with seeding, quarterfinals, semifinals, and a league championship. It's ridiculously competitive.. It's pretty sad to hear the mother of a ten year old state that "their playoff seeding is screwed" after a loss. There are very few good coaches in the league; they're all hyper competitive and aren't focused on the kids. This is the type of league where kids are categorized as MPP (minimum playing time players) early on and they rarely get more than the minimum time. The other league I worked in ditched the playoff system and just added those games to the schedule. They did do because they were running into the same problems I described in the other league. These league was much more enjoyable to work in because the added bullchit pressure of the playoffs was removed. Most of the whacko coaches disappeared when they stopped the playoff system. I guess it just wasnt "Madden" enough for them. We were still really competitive; we keep score for a reason. But you didn't see the MPP issue pop up very often. I talked to the guys that operate the competitive league last year and they complained constantly about the coaches and the rest of the crap in the league. But, they got really defensive when I told them that toning down the competitive nature would solve a lot of problem. They told me that the playoffs were there for the kids and it was in their best interest to keep them around. I told them that was a bunch of crap; the playoffs were for the coaches and the parents. The kids just wanted to play and have fun. Thoughts? Only one thought...have you been a part of a Championship?...as a player...Coach...Parent...? |
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Post by coachcb on Aug 22, 2013 7:13:57 GMT -6
I've been coaching for fourteen years and three of those have been spent at the youth level, in two different leagues. One league runs a playoff system with seeding, quarterfinals, semifinals, and a league championship. It's ridiculously competitive.. It's pretty sad to hear the mother of a ten year old state that "their playoff seeding is screwed" after a loss. There are very few good coaches in the league; they're all hyper competitive and aren't focused on the kids. This is the type of league where kids are categorized as MPP (minimum playing time players) early on and they rarely get more than the minimum time. The other league I worked in ditched the playoff system and just added those games to the schedule. They did do because they were running into the same problems I described in the other league. These league was much more enjoyable to work in because the added bullchit pressure of the playoffs was removed. Most of the whacko coaches disappeared when they stopped the playoff system. I guess it just wasnt "Madden" enough for them. We were still really competitive; we keep score for a reason. But you didn't see the MPP issue pop up very often. I talked to the guys that operate the competitive league last year and they complained constantly about the coaches and the rest of the crap in the league. But, they got really defensive when I told them that toning down the competitive nature would solve a lot of problem. They told me that the playoffs were there for the kids and it was in their best interest to keep them around. I told them that was a bunch of crap; the playoffs were for the coaches and the parents. The kids just wanted to play and have fun. Thoughts? Only one thought...have you been a part of a Championship?...as a player...Coach...Parent...? Yes, I've coached the the winning team in two championship games. And what if I hadn't? Am I supposed to be enthralled by the wonderment of being a youth league champion? That feeling was pretty much over ridden by watching the poor behavior by parents and coaches during those championship games. |
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Post by mahonz on Aug 22, 2013 8:50:07 GMT -6
Only one thought...have you been a part of a Championship?...as a player...Coach...Parent...? Yes, I've coached the the winning team in two championship games. And what if I hadn't? Am I supposed to be enthralled by the wonderment of being a youth league champion? That feeling was pretty much over ridden by watching the poor behavior by parents and coaches during those championship games. I was just curious. You sound very angry. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 22, 2013 13:23:43 GMT -6
Only one thought...have you been a part of a Championship?...as a player...Coach...Parent...? I coached on a championship team in 2011 & 2012. Didn't need any playoffs, we were undefeated each time. What would've been the point of making us play again a team we'd already beaten twice that season? |
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Post by mahonz on Aug 22, 2013 14:13:40 GMT -6
Only one thought...have you been a part of a Championship?...as a player...Coach...Parent...? I coached on a championship team in 2011 & 2012. Didn't need any playoffs, we were undefeated each time. What would've been the point of making us play again a team we'd already beaten twice that season? None. But it makes even less sense that you play teams twice in the regular season. Expand the League even if that means a little added windshield time for the visitors. I would think there would be another small House League interested in a CO-OP especially in NYC. What are there...30m people in the general area? |
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Post by coachcb on Aug 22, 2013 14:44:18 GMT -6
Yes, I've coached the the winning team in two championship games. And what if I hadn't? Am I supposed to be enthralled by the wonderment of being a youth league champion? That feeling was pretty much over ridden by watching the poor behavior by parents and coaches during those championship games. I was just curious. You sound very angry. Yeah, sorry coach. I'm very frustrated as my only opportunity to coach football this year is in the jaggoff youth league I described. I teach/coach in a tiny, rural school without football and no aspirations to co-op. But, coaching in this league is out of the question this year so I won't be coaching for the first time in over a decade. I would just like to see the emphasis of championships removed completely, with or without the playoffs. The more level-headed league I worked in did this completely. That year, we were undefeated going into the last game of the year as was the opposing team. The head of the league sent out an email to both staffs and told us that we weren't to emphasize the game as the "championship" and that we'd be watched very closely when it came to playing time. We lost the game by 6 points but we played everyone equally while the opposing coach was chastised for having half of his kids at minimum playing time. It was a really enjoyable experience to work in this league. Thr competitive nature was toned down, playing time, development and enjoyment of the game were emphasized. |
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Post by mahonz on Aug 22, 2013 15:44:12 GMT -6
I was just curious. You sound very angry. Yeah, sorry coach. I'm very frustrated as my only opportunity to coach football this year is in the jaggoff youth league I described. I teach/coach in a tiny, rural school without football and no aspirations to co-op. But, coaching in this league is out of the question this year so I won't be coaching for the first time in over a decade. I would just like to see the emphasis of championships removed completely, with or without the playoffs. The more level-headed league I worked in did this completely. That year, we were undefeated going into the last game of the year as was the opposing team. The head of the league sent out an email to both staffs and told us that we weren't to emphasize the game as the "championship" and that we'd be watched very closely when it came to playing time. We lost the game by 6 points but we played everyone equally while the opposing coach was chastised for having half of his kids at minimum playing time. It was a really enjoyable experience to work in this league. Thr competitive nature was toned down, playing time, development and enjoyment of the game were emphasized. Its good to vent. I currently coach in one of these hyper competitive Leagues. We dont have MS Sports so its a 1-8th grade Format that is single grade based and unlimited weight. Plus they have 3 Division of Play that start the 3rd grade season. I feel they put too much pressure on the coaches at the youngest levels to win since W/L record sets the Division you play in. Thereafter, the only way to move up a Division is to win or be a runner up in a Championship. The only way to move down a Division is to be the 2 worst teams by record. That is just fine for the 6th, 7th and 8th grade levels IMO....too much for the Elementary School Levels. It unnecessarily classifies kids on the play grounds because its a big city league so lots of kids in the same classrooms on different Teams in different Divisions. And you know what? Kids are mean. Yet I have sat in League wide meetings and have had these discussions before. There are 20 Orgs in our League. Its amazing anything gets done let alone a format issue. The bottom line...the League is providing a service to the insane ( Division 1 ) and the Recreational ( Division 3 ). I do like the parity it attempts to create by never having a brand new 5th grade team...for example...that will play in D3 playing an experienced 5th grade D1 team that has been playing together since they were 6 year olds and has won a few Championships. Outside of that...Im not a fan. |
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Post by coachcb on Aug 22, 2013 18:30:22 GMT -6
I read a study in college that said 80% of kids involved in sports will quit (not be cut, but quit) sports by the time they're 13.
The too three reasons for quitting:
1. Parents and coaches were too competitive.
2. They weren't playing enough.
3. It wasnt fun.
Now, IMO, #3 encompasses the first two but that was the wording these kids used.
I honestly felt bad when we won the league title last year because the opposing kids were crying their eyes out when we shook hands after. The staff and the parents looked like they were coming from a funeral. It was really pretty sad and pathetic. One that was bawling the most was a big, heavy set kid who hadnt played much in that game or the other two times we played them. Maybe winning the championship would have validated his not playing or something along those lines.
I thought back to when we lost our only game in the less competitive league and the kids were still happy. They didnt like losing (who does...) but they enjoyed the game and the season itself.
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Post by mahonz on Aug 23, 2013 9:42:11 GMT -6
I read a study in college that said 80% of kids involved in sports will quit (not be cut, but quit) sports by the time they're 13. The too three reasons for quitting: 1. Parents and coaches were too competitive. 2. They weren't playing enough. 3. It wasnt fun. Now, IMO, #3 encompasses the first two but that was the wording these kids used. I honestly felt bad when we won the league title last year because the opposing kids were crying their eyes out when we shook hands after. The staff and the parents looked like they were coming from a funeral. It was really pretty sad and pathetic. One that was bawling the most was a big, heavy set kid who hadnt played much in that game or the other two times we played them. Maybe winning the championship would have validated his not playing or something along those lines. I thought back to when we lost our only game in the less competitive league and the kids were still happy. They didnt like losing (who does...) but they enjoyed the game and the season itself. Losing a Championship is always heart breaking. I've heard about that study as well. I believe the problem falls directly on the shoulders of the Leagues. It is up to them to provide the experience. Better coach's training would go a very long way in improving the overall experience for everyone. That would help keep the Peanut Gallery at bay. A manageable Roster size would assure more players playing and create more fun. Can you imagine a rookie HC getting handed a roster of 30 8 year olds. Its gonna suck for half of them. Tryouts are probably the number one downfall that I see because coaching Staffs are not created until this tryout period ends. Then the Staff has very little time to gel. That is just plain dumb. Redrafting every year is also an issue. This makes no sense to me at all. The kids are constantly on a new team. No continuity. PW should think about how they do things. A kid can have 3 completely new Staffs in 6 seasons of youth ball. Good if you have a bad Staff....bad if you have a good Staff. So I do not believe the game schedule a kid plays has anything to do with anything when it comes to their overall experience. Its more about League structure. That alone would keep more kids playing beyond the MS levels. |
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Post by 33coach on Aug 23, 2013 12:20:47 GMT -6
the only issue we had with our playoff format. a few years ago was how seeding was decided:
we have a 2 conference system. so lets just take the 2 conference champions. it used to be decided like this:
Total number of wins
1 point for head to head
Strength of Schedule (add up all the wins your opponents had)
Total Points scored
so walking through a regular season...your conference champions would be something like...:
Team 1. 7 wins, 0 head to head, 20 for total opponenent wins, and 224 total points scored = 251
Team 2. 8 wins, 0 head to head, 18 for total opponenet wins, and 288 total point scored = 314
Team 2 is #1 Seed
Team 1 is #2 Seed
so everything was great..until you got to...Total Points Scored. this encouraged coaches to run up the score on every team...because it could literally determine a higher or lower position.
we removed total points scored and the 'running up the score' went down alot.
but we love our playoff system...the kids love it. i believe that we have the issues that other places do though in terms of crazy parents/coaches.
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Post by mahonz on Aug 23, 2013 12:35:41 GMT -6
the only issue we had with our playoff format. a few years ago was how seeding was decided: we have a 2 conference system. so lets just take the 2 conference champions. it used to be decided like this: Total number of wins 1 point for head to head Strength of Schedule (add up all the wins your opponents had) Total Points scored so walking through a regular season...your conference champions would be something like...: Team 1. 7 wins, 0 head to head, 20 for total opponenent wins, and 224 total points scored = 251 Team 2. 8 wins, 0 head to head, 18 for total opponenet wins, and 288 total point scored = 314 Team 2 is #1 Seed Team 1 is #2 Seed so everything was great..until you got to...Total Points Scored. this encouraged coaches to run up the score on every team...because it could literally determine a higher or lower position. we removed total points scored and the 'running up the score' went down alot. but we love our playoff system...the kids love it. i believe that we have the issues that other places do though in terms of crazy parents/coaches. Ours is... Total Wins Head to Head Conference Record Total Points Against Total Points Against v Common Opponents Coin Flip Rarely does it ever go past Conference Record. I cant remember a Coin Flip ever deciding things either. |
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Post by 33coach on Aug 23, 2013 12:40:04 GMT -6
the only issue we had with our playoff format. a few years ago was how seeding was decided: we have a 2 conference system. so lets just take the 2 conference champions. it used to be decided like this: Total number of wins 1 point for head to head Strength of Schedule (add up all the wins your opponents had) Total Points scored so walking through a regular season...your conference champions would be something like...: Team 1. 7 wins, 0 head to head, 20 for total opponenent wins, and 224 total points scored = 251 Team 2. 8 wins, 0 head to head, 18 for total opponenet wins, and 288 total point scored = 314 Team 2 is #1 Seed Team 1 is #2 Seed so everything was great..until you got to...Total Points Scored. this encouraged coaches to run up the score on every team...because it could literally determine a higher or lower position. we removed total points scored and the 'running up the score' went down alot. but we love our playoff system...the kids love it. i believe that we have the issues that other places do though in terms of crazy parents/coaches. Ours is... Total Wins Head to Head Conference Record Total Points Against Total Points Against v Common Opponents Coin Flip Rarely does it ever go past Conference Record. I cant remember a Coin Flip ever deciding things either. the number system for us pretty much takes care of any "ties" i cant remember a team ever having the same number of wins, and the same opponent wins.... but because we add everything together to get 1 final number...i think thats where our system was causing issues with points for....because say things arnt equal. Team 1. 7 wins, 0 head to head, 20 for total opponenent wins... = 27 Team 2. 8 wins, 1 head to head, 19 for total opponenet wins.... = 29 all team 1 has to do is score 2 more points then Team 2. and they get a higher seed... which led to teams, instead of being beaten 24-7..were being beaten by 50.... and MPP rules were not being followed..because points mattered outside just the game... we took points out of it completely, just to remove any possibility of unethical play. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 23, 2013 23:06:22 GMT -6
I coached on a championship team in 2011 & 2012. Didn't need any playoffs, we were undefeated each time. What would've been the point of making us play again a team we'd already beaten twice that season? None. But it makes even less sense that you play teams twice in the regular season. Expand the League even if that means a little added windshield time for the visitors. I would think there would be another small House League interested in a CO-OP especially in NYC. What are there...30m people in the general area? That's one thing I miss from the Big Apple YFL: the number of different opponents. Last year we even played triple round robin. But we could double the number of teams in our circuit and still not need or benefit from a playoff. If you wind up playing off against a team you already played, that means the first game you played with them didn't count as much (or maybe at all) in determining the standings. If we did that in games, 2nd half scores would count for more than 1st half scores. I can understand playing off when a league is too big for round robin; in many cases Swiss system would be better after the first few games. In small circuits, playoffs are just a way of scoring competition bogusly, the way they do in game shows where the values of the scores increase as each show goes on. Now comes our bonus round, where even though you were beaten to every question up to now, you still have the chance to pull ahead! |
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