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losing
Oct 21, 2007 18:26:09 GMT -6
Post by 1ispread on Oct 21, 2007 18:26:09 GMT -6
Some years we do a lot of hitting in practice, there has been some years we have done no hitting. We usually plan on doing very little hitting during the week once the year starts but there are years like jerk says we have to do a little more hitting during the week hoping/trying to instill more of an "attitude" Each year brings a different group of players with a different set of circumstances & problems. Thing we need to remember is we PLAY football not WORK football
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 18:27:40 GMT -6
Post by wildcat on Oct 21, 2007 18:27:40 GMT -6
why leave if the program has been down? the challenge and journey to making a contender would be a blast, and what a great story youd have to tell us "spread haters"...you could say "see, told ya so, saved the program" etc. best of luck either way. I don't think that airraider is leaving because the program isn't very good...my understanding is that it is not a good fit for him largely due to the philosphical differences he has with the head coach.
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 18:33:17 GMT -6
Post by wildcat on Oct 21, 2007 18:33:17 GMT -6
Attitude and toughness doesn't come from physical practices where you have the kids beat the crap out of each other. Instead, it comes from confidence gained through being mentally prepared to play by knowing assignments and being physically prepared to play by having put in the work in the offseason. If the kids aren't "tough" in that sense by August, there is little the coaches are going to do during the season to facilitate toughness.
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 18:55:03 GMT -6
Post by spencerxi on Oct 21, 2007 18:55:03 GMT -6
Attitude and toughness doesn't come from physical practices where you have the kids beat the crap out of each other. Instead, it comes from confidence gained through being mentally prepared to play by knowing assignments and being physically prepared to play by having put in the work in the offseason. If the kids aren't "tough" in that sense by August, there is little the coaches are going to do during the season to facilitate toughness. A great point wildcat, it all about attitude. A perfect example is a quarterback who doesn't get hit all year in practice and then take a beating during the game and fights on. This can also trickle down to other teammates when they watch. Its all attitude and I don't think you can instill that from a hitting drill, no matter what level. Most of the the kids with the right attitude are raised that way. Its going to take time to instill the right attitude in the ones who lack it. And like Wildcat said, by august if it ain't there its probably to late.
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 19:04:49 GMT -6
Post by Yash on Oct 21, 2007 19:04:49 GMT -6
Coachjerk, how long have you been coaching and at what level? You talk about this system that you've seen and how it works, but how long have you seen it. I'll be honest, i'm 22 years old and have only been coaching for 4 years now. I will admit that I know just about nothing compared to the ones I'm coaching with. They have been doing it far longer than I have. one of my favorite quotes "Its what we learn after we know it all that makes who we are."
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 19:24:06 GMT -6
Post by phantom on Oct 21, 2007 19:24:06 GMT -6
Attitude and toughness doesn't come from physical practices where you have the kids beat the crap out of each other. Instead, it comes from confidence gained through being mentally prepared to play by knowing assignments and being physically prepared to play by having put in the work in the offseason. If the kids aren't "tough" in that sense by August, there is little the coaches are going to do during the season to facilitate toughness. I'm not sure that I completely agree. We have physical practices and I think it hardens them up for the games. We don't scrimmage live but all of our group work (Inside Drill, Half-line, 7-on-7, and team) is full speed except for hitting the QB, hitting the backs low, and taking the backs to the ground. On the other hand, we don't do drills specifically designed to "build toughness". We do not do Oklahoma or One-on Ones during fundamentals. We teach football and expect them to be tough. We also have the advantage of being an established program so we have peer pressure on our side. If a kid wants to sit out with a bruise his buddies will snicker and call him a pu$$y. Our guys don't even try anymore. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat if, for some reason, you want a cat skinned. This works for us. If limiting contact works for you, knock yourself out.
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 19:24:55 GMT -6
Post by spencerxi on Oct 21, 2007 19:24:55 GMT -6
error
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 19:36:00 GMT -6
Post by spencerxi on Oct 21, 2007 19:36:00 GMT -6
You think doing things the right way with kids? doing homework, be respectful ect...ect.. is obtained by way of being contagious? clarity is not contagious on this board because I don't understand what you are talking about. Are we talking about football or school? I'm talking about what happens after the quote at the bottom of your page in a football game!!!!
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Oct 21, 2007 19:38:04 GMT -6
Post by Yash on Oct 21, 2007 19:38:04 GMT -6
Wow we sure have gone a long way with this thread.
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 20:17:13 GMT -6
Post by brophy on Oct 21, 2007 20:17:13 GMT -6
I have read through all of this thread and I am having difficulties connecting the TOPIC with the current discussion.
coachjerk, go ahead and start a new thread relaying your 10-point plan for turning pudding players into hardcore bangers.
However, I don't see where the thread author has said that his team is losing because they are soft.
It is possible to just be out-classed and /or execution of the people that play the game just isn't there on a consistent basis....DESPITE the best intentions and coaching / program building.
Thankfully, there is some real good advice here about "understanding that players play the game"
That isn't suggesting that when losing occurs, it is all the players.....just that, our careers are in the hands of 17 year old kids.....put it in perspective, 17 year old kids are 17 year old kids.
What happens when losing occurs? How do you dig out of frustrating ruts? How do you weather the storms of bad programs?
broad sweeping rhetoric doesn't help and only is self-serving.
You lose because you're soft - you coaches need to beat on the kids and harden them up....
wtf does that really help? How is it the answer to all of life's problems? Beating on teams that are down (and not just by one or two losses) does exactly what to a down-trodden program?
We used to have a guy who was outside the program say, "y'know, all those kids need, is to see how much they LOVE the game. That's all you have to do, and then they'd start winning...I mean, they have so much talent there...."
freaking gen-iac!
Again, how do you weather the storm? Focus on the PROGRAM and not just the W/L column. Nothing makes a shallow career more than just showing up for 'games'.....it is about program building, about making a difference. Serve the kids and not the other way around.
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 20:21:13 GMT -6
Post by coachd5085 on Oct 21, 2007 20:21:13 GMT -6
I have read through all of this thread and I am having difficulties connecting the TOPIC with the current discussion. coachjerk, go ahead and start a new thread relaying your 10-point plan for turning pudding players into hardcore bangers. However, I don't see where the thread author has said that his team is losing because they are soft. It is possible to just be out-classed and /or execution of the people that play the game just isn't there on a consistent basis....DESPITE the best intentions and coaching / program building. Thankfully, there is some real good advice here about "understanding that players play the game" That isn't suggesting that when losing occurs, it is all the players.....just that, our careers are in the hands of 17 year old kids.....put it in perspective, 17 year old kids are 17 year old kids. What happens when losing occurs? How do you dig out of frustrating ruts? How do you weather the storms of bad programs? broad sweeping rhetoric doesn't help and only is self-serving. You lose because you're soft - you coaches need to beat on the kids and harden them up.... wtf does that really help? How is it the answer to all of life's problems? Beating on teams that are down (and not just by one or two losses) does exactly what to a down-trodden program? We used to have a guy who was outside the program say, "y'know, all those kids need, is to see how much they LOVE the game. That's all you have to do, and then they'd start winning...I mean, they have so much talent there...."freaking gen-iac! Again, how do you weather the storm? Focus on the PROGRAM and not just the W/L column. Nothing makes a shallow career more than just showing up for 'games'.....it is about program building, about making a difference. Serve the kids and not the other way around. NAH..just do eye openers every day, and make sure you have one coach/parent yell "HIT SOMEBODY" every once in a while. Thats all you need to do.
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losing
Oct 21, 2007 20:24:07 GMT -6
Post by airraider on Oct 21, 2007 20:24:07 GMT -6
why leave if the program has been down? the challenge and journey to making a contender would be a blast, and what a great story youd have to tell us "spread haters"...you could say "see, told ya so, saved the program" etc. best of luck either way. I don't think that airraider is leaving because the program isn't very good...my understanding is that it is not a good fit for him largely due to the philosphical differences he has with the head coach. Thats exactly it Wildcat, I just feel that our philosophies clash too much for us to work together. Not that this would be a problem in general, because I have had differents of opinion with the other two HC's I have worked under.. but being that this guy and myself are really good friends outside of the profession.. I do not want work to come between our friendship.
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Oct 22, 2007 4:22:22 GMT -6
Post by brophy on Oct 22, 2007 4:22:22 GMT -6
jerk,
I don't think anyone is truly challenging you, we are all here to learn (at least I think we are)....
You said, "Be more physical". folks asked, "HOW?!" You replied, "tackle a lot".
that really doesn't give any true 'plan' or guideline.
You have an answer - please feel free to detail it so we all can benefit. If not here, in your own thread or article. It would be appreciated.
thanks
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 5:55:51 GMT -6
Post by coachcalande on Oct 22, 2007 5:55:51 GMT -6
Attitude and toughness doesn't come from physical practices where you have the kids beat the crap out of each other. Instead, it comes from confidence gained through being mentally prepared to play by knowing assignments and being physically prepared to play by having put in the work in the offseason. If the kids aren't "tough" in that sense by August, there is little the coaches are going to do during the season to facilitate toughness. thats really only partially true. we have a second year corner that cant hit or shed or tackle ..but guess what? how much work do you think hes had at it? ... to me, thats part of prepartion, a kid whos not been in many full contact situations needs some of that to build his confidence in his gear, himself too. drives me nuts that we have a few kids that dont tackle as well as my 7th graders last year.
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 6:45:18 GMT -6
Post by brophy on Oct 22, 2007 6:45:18 GMT -6
losing....'being tough'...tackling...being MENTALLY tough.....being aggressive.... its all getting blurred into some gumbo of coaching cliches here. Has a TRUE symptom of why these guys are losing been established, or are we just saying ONE contributing factor is the sole reason? Can aggressiveness with technique be taught? sure it can...can you make kids more aggressive in their assignments? Sure you can. All that does not equal "mental toughness", nor does "mental toughness" or "Physically aggression (being tough)" equate to wins. It contributes, it eases our frustrations, but it doesn't soley equal victories. The morning after a loss I feel as though I have been a fifteen round knockout boxing match -- getting older - I don't remember feeling like this before...physcially beat up - I never left a game feeling so defeated. The whole drive home, I really questioned my ability as a coach. But after watching film, I simply just wondered what else can you do? How to cope with losing.......
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Oct 22, 2007 7:35:48 GMT -6
Post by dsqa on Oct 22, 2007 7:35:48 GMT -6
Looks like I am late to the party, I have been out of town for 5 days. But, this is a fun thread.
I have a lot of experience with this dynamic of plugging holes and looking to right the ship.
A few observations:
airraider - looking at your history, and not wanting to distract too much from the discussion here, but your defense has not been mentioned in one post. This is a two sided game. As a head coach, I spent more time getting creative on defense when we were losing, than on offense. Defense is a contributor to offensive rhythm. Their ability to stop people and create turnovers WILL affect the offense's mindset. Just a thought
Now, back to physicality. Being physical is a great thing, but saying I have 60% physical kids, and 40% wusses, does not always translate to victories. I have seen some very physical football teams who lose a lot. It helps and it is usually credited to a team's success, but there are some other pretty critical factors. Physical toughness is in the mix of mindset, will, and emotions, what I call "heart toughness." It cannot be developed solely in a hitting drill. It can be cultivated, but other things have to be present in the mix for "heart toughness" to come to the fore.
At the risk of taking a side road, I read through the list of things that went wrong in your game - dropped passes, no YAC on the short throws, etc.
It would seem the young men are tanking emotionally after these drops and failures. I know, way to go Captain Obvious!
This can be a function of a boatload of issues. But, at the end of the day, I KNOW WHEN MY KIDS QUIT PLAYING, and it sounds like your guys are quitting on you, and each other.
You cannot whip that " heart toughness" back into an emotionally defeated team.
When a young man has let himself down, or is offended/angry, I don't care how much you hit, he won't recover until the issue is addressed. He will just become more bitter.
I may be way off base for some of you old school guys, but in a losing environment, and I have some experience with this, you have to coach harder than you ever have in your life! What I mean isn't run more plays, hit more, do more. You have to READ your team. This is what being a Head Coach is all about. You have to find out what is going on in their hearts, and it needs to be addressed individually, and corporately.
I am a father of 5(3 teenage sons) When they "leave the building emotionally," no amount of intensity on my part is going to restore them. I have to be willing to go a little deeper.
Now, I am not suggesting you bring in a team of counselors and turn this into a "felt-needs" seminar. But, talk to the captains, talk to the movers and shakers, talk to the coaches, and talk to the guys making the mistakes. Pull them aside, grant them clemency for their honesty, and FIND OUT WHY THEY ARE GIVING UP IN THEIR HEARTS. You may find, they have never been there to begin with, or they are just frustrated, either way, you have to get this stuff aired and addressed.
I have seen lesser young men, take bigger men, because their heart and conscience were clear. Someone believed in them, and they believed in each other. There is nothing like looking in the eyes of a kid who has gotten his heart back after a gut wrenching loss, or a failure, or a bad "let down." That knowing smile in that kid, is worth more than all the booster checks and accolades you can amass from the public.
Your offense may need tweaking, your defense may need to rethink what it is doing, but those adjustments need to be made AFTER talking to the kids and coaches.
They felt every bit of the 5 hour practices, they know they are letting you down. They are aware they are losing, and in the absence of direct input to their mindsets, it is evident that they are drawing their own conclusions that EVERYONE, including the coaching staff, doesn't believe in them. You can say that corporately to the team, but that won't do it. The deeper the failure, the deeper you have to be willing to go.
Billy Bob Thornton's, Gary Gaines character in Friday Night Lights, sat in Mike Wenchell's room and had a heart to heart with him, and Wenchell's comment seems appropriate here, "My mind's not right." That is of first importance. Each guy is different, and you know them better than anyone what motivates them, but until you go there. This will be the legacy. It isn't they don't want to win, they just don't care enough about what is going in this program to fight for it, and something took that away, OR it was never there to begin with. Either way, you have to deal with it.
You can run the I/SPREAD/WISHBONE hybrid with WING-T misdirection, but if you don't have their hearts, you don't have a team. That takes work, creativity, compassion, and being a man as a coach to kids who sat down a long way back down the road. Oh, they still show up to practice, but are they really there?
These are kids, guys. NOT MEN, yet. We are working toward that end. They are post puberty, self serving, mini men, who are just now figuring out whether they have what it takes to get it done.
From a father's perspective, I don't need my son to think he is GREAT, that isn't a helpful thought. He already thinks that based on how many people he steps on, and it is self-serving and arrogant.
I need him to know his Dad believes in him in spite of his selfish views and that regardless of his failures that he understands it is important to keep trying hard for the guy next to him. That the other guys matter more than him. If he happens to end up great because he has talent, so be it. But there will be no quit in him regardless.
If you, as a coach, can crack that code in a kid, where his fear of mistakes fade in comparison to his desire to go hard for the guy next to him, and this team.
You will not only win, you will beat teams you shouldn't. Conversely, you spend all your time trying to scheme your way around it to victory, you will create overly independent, self-absorbed players whose only concern is why you don't get them the ball, and talking about the other guy being so bad. You pick the complaint, but it is all about them.
It won't take much, but coaches who have tapped into the "real, God intended manhood" of their kids do amazing things. That team beats an Oklahoma in a bowl game overtime series that leaves people talking about the greatest game ever. That team dismantles a Michigan in the big house deep in the 4th quarter, blocking a field goal to win it. They beat a USC team as bunch of academic geniuses who got it together.
It doesn't always happen, but in the end, win or lose, you win with your team - not your scheme.
I found in many cases, that just a few days of investigation, a few key honest and humble talks, and a team meeting, and we were back on the road again - WITH THE ADJUSTMENTS MADE. But, if that isn't on the radar with your coach, I would take that other job, because no matter what play you call, it won't be right, because their hearts aren't right.
Just my opinion as always. Hope you can find something useful.
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 7:51:48 GMT -6
Post by brophy on Oct 22, 2007 7:51:48 GMT -6
wow.......that was a great humble introspection analysis, Mr.Slack.
Losing at a program that WINS (bazooka) and losing a program that is LOSING (airraider) are two different scenarios.
The former is to plug away and drill harder because they KNOW what excellence is. The latter, most of the kids don't know any better. It is what they have conditioned themselves to become. It is just like the systemic problem of generational poverty....you have to fix the MIND first to sustain success.
These are two different animals we're dealing with. The GOAL should be to develop leaders (in a winning or losing program) that can function without being hand-fed by the head coach every down. That they can develop a standard of performance and accountibility to persevere...those are life-lessons. That kind of stuff isn't learned overnight or in a drill.
But in the end, it is based on what the team needs, not what is 'prescribed'.
How to cope? One day at a time...putting the program first, and like airraider said in another thread, taking pride in the little victories (scoring more....more 1st downs...more players out...etc). It isn't ALL about the scoreboard, its about the long-term results.
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 7:55:49 GMT -6
Post by dsqa on Oct 22, 2007 7:55:49 GMT -6
well put. Sometimes moving the chains inside the kids, is just as important as it is on the field.
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 9:13:57 GMT -6
Post by brophy on Oct 22, 2007 9:13:57 GMT -6
coachhuey.proboards42.com/index.cgi?action=userrecentposts&user=coachjerkVery simple. One thing you can teach anybody to do? That be more physical than the other guy and yes it can be done. overall talent has a lot to do with winning but nothing to do with being physical. If you "stress" it? you end up one and seven. The method I learned wears on your kids both mentally and physically but also in their make up. It is not just hitting but hitting with fundamentals. Attitude as I am learning slowly is instilled the hard way. If you give the kids a choice of being physical or titty bumpin? theyll bump. Every time. this is what you have written.....how does one put any of it into practice? If you've written it in another thread, just give us the hyperlink so the rest of us can learn..... you want practices more physical. If you hit 2 days a week, then you are prescribing hitting 3 days a week.....is that right? This comes off as really obscure, vague, oversimplifications....can you go into more detail on your approach? WHAT, specifically, would a coach need to do to correct their team based on your advice? Now, to be clear, I (nor anyone else) is challenging YOU personally. You made a statement. It sounds good. We would like clarification because you sound so convincing in your belief. thank you
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 9:19:20 GMT -6
Post by fbdoc on Oct 22, 2007 9:19:20 GMT -6
"Moving the Chains inside the kids..." Now that is a great analogy. DSQA, great post!
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 9:21:03 GMT -6
Post by lsrood on Oct 22, 2007 9:21:03 GMT -6
Any moderator out there:
This thread needs locked because it has become personal and unprofessional. If people have problems with other's posts then PM them and keep the drama out of here. If we want our opinions to be heard and respected, we need to respect each other, regardless of whether we agree with the premise of the post or not.
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 9:26:47 GMT -6
Post by fbdoc on Oct 22, 2007 9:26:47 GMT -6
I don't know about the thread but theres at least one coach who needs to use the grammar and spell check before posting. This is a professional board and the members should strive to be professional in their posts. Continued grammatical errors and misspellings detract from your intended message. On the other hand, if you choose to come across the way you do, then your message is loud and clear.
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 9:44:22 GMT -6
Post by brophy on Oct 22, 2007 9:44:22 GMT -6
honestly, all of us are big boys....and have thick skin. I think the biggest thing is, distinguishing between a PERSONAL comment and a PHILOSOPHY comment. These aren't necessarily the same.
In this day and age of the "Bill O'Reillys" of attacking people personally when you are unable to debate or share ideas has become the norm. Not saying that is what is going on here, but as a society, we are CONDITIONED to believe that is what is happening (even when it is not).
Don't think airraider should run the spread? .........state specific reasons why......(issues, not PEOPLE)
Don't think Darin Slack knows anything about quarterbacking and think 'zero' is irrelevant? ......state specific reasons why....(issues, not PEOPLE)
THAT is how we get down to the root FACTS / TRUTH of issues we ALL deal with on a daily basis. We all do things differently, it is nice to see how life is on the other side of the tracks. Some of the best ideas I've ever had, have come when my own personal beliefs were challenged and helped galvanized a truth where I found out I was misguided earlier.
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 10:14:31 GMT -6
Post by lsrood on Oct 22, 2007 10:14:31 GMT -6
Brophy,
I have no problem with disagreements in philosophy or technique, strategy, whatever. Yes we are big boys and have to have thick skins in order to be in coaching, but is it wrong to ask for a little civility in the arguments. Passionate discourse is one thing, namecalling is another. Playing the devil's advocate to get a discussion going is okay, as is tongue in cheek humor, but how would we react if our players or students got into a name calling mudslinging free for all? All I am saying is this: We can agree to disagree, but lets keep it professional. If I disagree, I will let you know why. If you disagree I would expect the same from you. But I don't intend to make it personal and would hope you would feel the same way. Maybe its too much to ask others to feel that way, but that is just my opinion and people can take it or leaveit, or comment on it.
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losing
Oct 22, 2007 10:15:59 GMT -6
Post by brophy on Oct 22, 2007 10:15:59 GMT -6
personally, I hear you, but what is 'wrong' / offensive with asking for clarification?
so far, in this thread, I have not seen a DISAGREEMENT. I have notseen where someone is saying one is 'right' and one is 'wrong'.
I jumped into a discussion on the 3rd page.....some other folks were asking for details way before I got here, and without putting anyone on the 'spot', I really think we can learn something here.
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