airraid41
Freshmen Member
Success is piece of mind, procured through self-satisfaction based on giving one's personal best.
Posts: 54
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Post by airraid41 on Jul 22, 2013 20:31:57 GMT -6
I have asked this question to many people and have received similar answers. I'm still studying the subject. I wanted to know what do you think separates those programs that win champions on a yearly basis from the awful programs?
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Post by rsmith627 on Jul 22, 2013 20:52:24 GMT -6
I am in year 2 at an "awful program." Our story is this. There was an a-hole coach that ran kids out to other schools. Now, we are playing with undersized guys and weaker numbers than guys in our division and region. We have a hard time competing with them. The elite programs graduate kids and simply reload. We are in an area with little to no growth, so reloading doesn't ever happen.
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Post by carookie on Jul 22, 2013 21:06:12 GMT -6
Question, what do you mean by elite? Do you mean teams that are consistently top 50 in the nation or do you mean teams that always make deep playoff runs in their state, within division?
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Post by lochness on Jul 22, 2013 21:13:21 GMT -6
Good coaching at all levels and all positions Community and administrative support Facilities Talent
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Post by gators1422 on Jul 22, 2013 21:14:09 GMT -6
Dedication to the program, from coaches to kids to boosters all the way to the fans. Everybody always thinks they are working hard, but there is somebody always doing more. We are always looking for those guys and trying to do more.
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ntshu98
Probationary Member
Posts: 10
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Post by ntshu98 on Jul 22, 2013 21:52:34 GMT -6
I don't think it is possible to nail down a specific recipe, but I definitely feel that there are characteristics that most elite programs share. Over the past 8 years our team has won the state championship 4 times and has been finalists 2 additional times. We've also been conference champs 6 of those years. So I will speak from what I see occurring in our school.
1. Expectations must be high! I don't just mean in regard to performance during the season. Our head coach stresses commitment to the program year round. We routinely have 30-40 kids in the weight room after school; and during the summer, conditioning and lifting sessions are held and the turnout is even better (usually around 50). Furthermore, our head coach strongly emphasizes the importance of excellence in the classroom. He mandates that all students share their progress reports and report cards. Kids whose grades dip below a 2.0 don't play.
2. Weight room! Strength is essential. Kids that don't visit the weight room can't generally compete with the best teams. There is always that freak athlete who is an exception, but for the most part, we all have average athletes. In order for the average to beat the average, they have to be stronger.
3. Rules must be clearly articulated and consistently enforced. I feel that the biggest mistake that coaches make is allowing exceptions for unique circumstances. Things like allowing the star player to play on Friday even though he missed two practices due to illness. At our school, our head coach has a two absence policy. After your second unexcused absence during the season, you are off the team. He is not hesitant to enforce this rule. In 2003, he kicked our stud running back off the team for the season for missing two practices. This same kid currently plays in the NFL as a free safety.
4. Condition! Condition! Condition! When I was in high school, we did not condition enough. Of course at the time I thought we did, but we didn't. At my school now, our players double as track athletes. They run a lot. I'll give you an example workout. It is not uncommon for them to engage in 20 100 yard sprints after a 2 hour practice. We also do a lot of conditioning circuits. Some coaches might call this excessive, but the results can't be argued. Our second half performance is superb. Our kids don't get tired.
I could go on, but in all honesty, I feel these are some of the most pivotal.
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Post by mariner42 on Jul 22, 2013 22:07:40 GMT -6
It's usually a combination of factors, but you will not find sustained success without:
Administrative support/commitment to the program. Without this, everything else gets harder.
Community support/commitment to the program. These are the people who will inevitably supply you with funds, donate time/help, and send their kids out for your team.
Organized/successful S&C program. If your boys' bodies don't develop over the time that they're in the program, probably going to lose more often than not.
Some degree of consistency within the coaching staff. Keeping a staff together makes it easier to develop chemistry, to have people who get better and better at coaching their individual positions and performing their responsibilities, and to ride out the rough years where maybe talent is down.
Guarantee those four things and you'll find a situation that's 'easy' to win in. I think everywhere has it's challenges, but the kinds of challenges determine what you can do.
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Post by fantom on Jul 22, 2013 22:52:52 GMT -6
You'd better have talent. You don't necessarily need D.1 prospects year in and year out (unless you want to be in USA'a Top 25. Those guys really like to see big name recruits)but you better have good football players.
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Post by coach2013 on Jul 23, 2013 2:46:21 GMT -6
1) cohesive/fully committed coaching staff- those staffs that work together and stay together will put together a good program.
2) a culture of work and sacrifice
3) administrative support/parental support
4) athletes that are at or above "average" for your league. I dont care about the other three if you have a bare cupboard. You have to remember that the players play the game and all of the other things cant change a 5 foot 7 145 lb freshman into a kid whos going to compete with seniors and juniors around the league.
5) team chemistry and leadership- players holding players accountable
6) physical kids/coaches that can instill this
7) excitement/enthusism - enrollment- these things go together. If you have enough kids excited to play, and a large enough enrollment, you can reload. If you do not, you will find some rebuilding periods and have to hang in there with administrative support. (whos patient these days? this is going to impact cohesive staff- many wont endure a losing period and will jump ship)
8) fundraising/facilities/equipment- You cant spend a bunch of time needing and wanting.
9) relationships with faculty- can your kids get extra help with their academics or are the teachers out to see football players fall on their face? I have seen it both ways.
10) An extremely passionate and dedicated head coach who is a student of the game and will do everything for his guys. (players and coaches)
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orion320
Sophomore Member
"Don't tell me about the labor just show me the baby!"
Posts: 211
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Post by orion320 on Jul 23, 2013 8:58:31 GMT -6
Our program is about .500 over 5 years, qualified for playoffs 2 out of the past 4 years but not won a game in the playoffs since 2003 and have not had a home playoff game since '95. Overall I think we have a solid program and do many of the aforementioned characteristics well and are getting better year to year.
My top 4 are:
1) Coaching Staff - Committed, dedicated, and loyal coaching staff. I am in my 5th year at the same school and we have had 3 head coaches and 14 different assistant coaches. Go back 4 years ago and I am the only one still on staff. We went from having 8 coaches last year to 5 this year on all 3 levels.
2) Community/School Support - All administrators and teachers must support the program along with the community. Being a rural district it is hard to get community support since we are a small town with many rural neighborhoods and not many people identify with the town. Our administrators support all sports programs and are present at each and every football game and most other competition. Teachers have little support for sport and extra-curricular activities which stems from most teachers not living in the community.
3) Player Development - this starts at the Pee Wee and Junior High level. Get the Pee Wee coaches to run the same scheme and drills as you do and be present at Pee Wee games. Interact with Pee Wee coaches and players as much as possible. Once they get in high school encourage weightroom attendance and continue to recruit players to play. Don't alienate the freshman during practice, run all individual drills as a team then split for team. Allow the varsity players to set the example for the freshman.
4) Consistency - be consistent in your rules and enforce the rules equally and fairly to all players. Keep the same offensive and defensive system year in and year out. Due to coaching turn over we have had 4 defenses in 5 years and 3 different offensive systems. For example our seniors ran a Pro Style as freshman, Double Wing Triple Option, and now the Spread.
5) Excitement and Enthusiasm centered around the TEAM- people must be excited about the program. Get younger kids to feel "left out" by being involved in football. Place posters around the school and community promoting players and their accomplishments.
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airraid41
Freshmen Member
Success is piece of mind, procured through self-satisfaction based on giving one's personal best.
Posts: 54
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Post by airraid41 on Jul 23, 2013 9:57:14 GMT -6
Question, what do you mean by elite? Do you mean teams that are consistently top 50 in the nation or do you mean teams that always make deep playoff runs in their state, within division? Schools that consisting win state titles,division titles and just are all around great programs.
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airraid41
Freshmen Member
Success is piece of mind, procured through self-satisfaction based on giving one's personal best.
Posts: 54
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Post by airraid41 on Jul 23, 2013 9:59:20 GMT -6
Thank you for the insight guys I'm always learning some new on this site.
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Post by pirate1590 on Jul 23, 2013 10:06:24 GMT -6
1. Coaches who love their players, love football, and love to teach. Yes winning is very important (I don't coach HS anymore) but I've always believed winning takes care of itself. You have to be the kids parent, not their friend but love and support them unconditionally. You also have to modify your schemes annually to match up with the talent you have and know your limitations. 2. Nice facilities, not state of the art but football should definitely be one of the top priorities of each school in terms of sports. Put in the money to upgrade your facilities. 3. Jimmies and Joes, you can coach kids up but to be elite you have to have a few studs. 4. A supportive administration who supports all sports teams. Do not tell your players they are any different from any other athlete in the school. If you do, the players will slack and be a PITA to the teachers and the teachers will start to snipe about the players and you'll be in trouble 5. Good S/C program 6. Good coachable hardworking kids who aren't a PITA in class. It sets a bad example if Jimmy gets in trouble for doing something but a better player gets away with it. You have to get rid of the turds in the punch bowl. You can try to save them but they have to save themselves.
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Post by joker31 on Jul 23, 2013 10:49:34 GMT -6
I agree with a lot of the above, but it seems like to me that a lot of the top elite programs either have amazing talent or are in upper-middle class areas. Places where jimmy and joe can devote themselves to football and not worry about working, babysitting their little sister, etc.
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Post by hammer66 on Jul 23, 2013 10:51:38 GMT -6
Demographics is huge. Are you in a white collar type of town or Blue collar. Does the Administration as well as the other coaches at the school share your vision of discipline as well as strength and conditioning. (For example at the school I am at we are the only program to use the weight room and most of our kids are multi sport athletes. The other coaches do not allow their players to lift with us while they are in season.) Do the parents share you views as well and do they believe in your rules and the consequences for breaking them. If you have all of that it is easier to handle the actual teaching aspect of coaching because everyone is rowing in the same direction. I would think that the great programs have all of the above. You can have great talent and no support and just not be able to win consistently.
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Post by bigblue13329 on Jul 23, 2013 10:56:06 GMT -6
I agree with all the posts above and I would add one thing confidence. Great programs believe that when they step on the field they are going to win. This confidence has to be gained overtime as a program becomes successful. It can not be coached but is build through both success and tradition. When young men believe in themselves, coaches, and the system, they are half way to victory before the first whistle.
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Post by holmesbend on Jul 23, 2013 11:01:51 GMT -6
Good coaching at all levels and all positions Community and administrative support Facilities Talent This, and my order of these would be: Talent Coaching Community and Admin support Facilities
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airraid41
Freshmen Member
Success is piece of mind, procured through self-satisfaction based on giving one's personal best.
Posts: 54
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Post by airraid41 on Jul 23, 2013 11:21:51 GMT -6
So do you believe a schools in low income and high crime areas can become elite with the right coaching staff?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 11:28:23 GMT -6
So do you believe a schools in low income and high crime areas can become elite with the right coaching staff? Absolutely! But you have to get beyond the immediate circumstances. To many give in the immediate and surrounding circumstances.
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hawk18
Freshmen Member
Posts: 76
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Post by hawk18 on Jul 23, 2013 11:55:18 GMT -6
I am in year 2 of an awful program. We have little to zero support from our board. We hired a brand new coaching staff that seems very committed to turning our program around. Football is not a concern at our school. Basketball runs the show and we kind of get the shaft. We have very little parent support. Until we put a good product on the field, I don't see much changing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 11:59:56 GMT -6
I am in year 2 of an awful program. We have little to zero support from our board. We hired a brand new coaching staff that seems very committed to turning our program around. Football is not a concern at our school. Basketball runs the show and we kind of get the shaft. We have very little parent support. Until we put a good product on the field, I don't see much changing. With all due respect, winning will just encourage the same behavior from parent and the board. You are winning with what every other coach had. No reason to change the support level. Winning doesn't promote discipline,financial support, or anything else. If you start winning, you will find it to be nothing more than stepping stl e, because they wont change.
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hawk18
Freshmen Member
Posts: 76
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Post by hawk18 on Jul 23, 2013 12:07:57 GMT -6
I am in year 2 of an awful program. We have little to zero support from our board. We hired a brand new coaching staff that seems very committed to turning our program around. Football is not a concern at our school. Basketball runs the show and we kind of get the shaft. We have very little parent support. Until we put a good product on the field, I don't see much changing. With all due respect, winning will just encourage the same behavior from parent and the board. You are winning with what every other coach had. No reason to change the support level. Winning doesn't promote discipline,financial support, or anything else. If you start winning, you will find it to be nothing more than stepping stl e, because they wont change. coachbry, We haven't had a winning season in our 5 years as a football program. So, there isn't a problem with winning with someone else's players. We almost have a brand new team this year, 6 returning starters. I think that winning does increase financial support (ticket sales, concession sales, more attention for fundraisers... etc.).
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Post by holmesbend on Jul 23, 2013 12:16:27 GMT -6
So do you believe a schools in low income and high crime areas can become elite with the right coaching staff? Better have the right administration, too.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jul 23, 2013 12:23:41 GMT -6
I am in year 2 of an awful program. We have little to zero support from our board. We hired a brand new coaching staff that seems very committed to turning our program around. Football is not a concern at our school. Basketball runs the show and we kind of get the shaft. We have very little parent support. Until we put a good product on the field, I don't see much changing. With all due respect, winning will just encourage the same behavior from parent and the board. You are winning with what every other coach had. No reason to change the support level. Winning doesn't promote discipline,financial support, or anything else. If you start winning, you will find it to be nothing more than stepping stl e, because they wont change. Beg to differ, you win you get more kids out. You get more kids out you get more possible parents involved. You get more kids out and more parents involved you have a bigger voice in the school and possibly community. Everyone loves a winner...much more likely to watch and support a winner then a perennial loser, a lot of band wagon people out there. I have been a part of a city program that was down with minimal support and while the support level never got to where we wanted before I took a new job, it was increasing every year as our product and numbers improved. We did a lot of additional work and were more visible in the community as well as hounded some big whigs but slowly things were getting better. They may never get the level of support other schools get (and unfortunately I doubt they will) however it is no coincidence that with a competent program came more support.
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Post by coachturso on Jul 23, 2013 12:24:57 GMT -6
My opinion.
Community Support and a school board that supports it's staff.
MONEY
The reason I say money, is the programs up here in Washington State, that have money, like booster clubs with an average of $75,000 in their accounts, seem to have the best programs. They are able to send kids to multiple camps, bring in guest coaches, etc.
Look at Belevue... Their head coach Butch Goncharoff, isn't a teacher. He owns his own embroidery company, which designs all of their gear. PLUS... for some reason, their district is open enrollment, which means they can recruit kids from other schools. On this side of the water, if a kid changes schools, he has to sit a year before playing any sports. I know it's crazy, but that's the district rules.
I also believe that grades are a huge issue here as well. WIAA states a kid must maintain a 2.0 or 2.3 GPA in order to be able to play. However our school says you can't have any F's. This kills our program!! I know education is first, but some of our kids who are in advanced classes struggle with certain subjects like SPANISH. I had a kid who had all A's and 1 F, he was not able to play for the last 5 weeks of his senior year. Again, Im not trying make excuses, because kids are there to learn.
Our state rules also state you must have turf in order to host a play-off game... We still have a grass field and had to drive all over the place when we made the play-offs which costs the district money for travel.
Just venting now... Sorry about that.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jul 23, 2013 12:26:53 GMT -6
So do you believe a schools in low income and high crime areas can become elite with the right coaching staff? Yes however there are a few other things in play. MOST schools that fit that description that have become elite have benefited from one or both of the following. Open enrollment and/or a very charismatic coach. The staff doesn't necessarily have to be the greatest X and O wise but there is someone on that staff that has drawn kids in that want to play there. Once that ball starts rolling, the talent aspect can really get going but from what I have witnessed/experienced, this situation is typically more fragile then other "elite" programs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 12:31:45 GMT -6
With all due respect, winning will just encourage the same behavior from parent and the board. You are winning with what every other coach had. No reason to change the support level. Winning doesn't promote discipline,financial support, or anything else. If you start winning, you will find it to be nothing more than stepping stl e, because they wont change. Beg to differ, you win you get more kids out. You get more kids out you get more possible parents involved. You get more kids out and more parents involved you have a bigger voice in the school and possibly community. Everyone loves a winner...much more likely to watch and support a winner then a perennial loser, a lot of band wagon people out there. I have been a part of a city program that was down with minimal support and while the support level never got to where we wanted before I took a new job, it was increasing every year as our product and numbers improved. We did a lot of additional work and were more visible in the community as well as hounded some big whigs but slowly things were getting better. They may never get the level of support other schools get (and unfortunately I doubt they will) however it is no coincidence that with a competent program came more support. You have it backwards, but no point in banging heads.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2013 12:34:36 GMT -6
With all due respect, winning will just encourage the same behavior from parent and the board. You are winning with what every other coach had. No reason to change the support level. Winning doesn't promote discipline,financial support, or anything else. If you start winning, you will find it to be nothing more than stepping stl e, because they wont change. coachbry, We haven't had a winning season in our 5 years as a football program. So, there isn't a problem with winning with someone else's players. We almost have a brand new team this year, 6 returning starters. I think that winning does increase financial support (ticket sales, concession sales, more attention for fundraisers... etc.). but that is the point. they haven't won. They don't give it you when you lose, NO INCENTIVE TO GIVE IT to you when you win. If you want financial that you don't have to split with the sports programs, you are going to have to go outside the norms of what produces revenue....get parent who have money involved, get small business's involved. You will be gone long before the money is redirected from the basketball to the football program.
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Post by fantom on Jul 23, 2013 13:24:06 GMT -6
coachbry, We haven't had a winning season in our 5 years as a football program. So, there isn't a problem with winning with someone else's players. We almost have a brand new team this year, 6 returning starters. I think that winning does increase financial support (ticket sales, concession sales, more attention for fundraisers... etc.). but that is the point. they haven't won. They don't give it you when you lose, NO INCENTIVE TO GIVE IT to you when you win. If you want financial that you don't have to split with the sports programs, you are going to have to go outside the norms of what produces revenue....get parent who have money involved, get small business's involved. You will be gone long before the money is redirected from the basketball to the football program. Fund raising is a lot easier when you're winning than when you're losing.
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Post by jlenwood on Jul 23, 2013 13:41:38 GMT -6
I believe this is kind of a "chicken or the egg" type of qusetion. In my opinion if you don't have support from your administration (ie:AD), everything is an uphill struggle. And by support, I don't mean top notch facilities and equipment, I am just talking about a person who can make things happen. If you need some footballs for practice, you shouldn't be afraid to ask or if you do ask you don't get some sort of negative response...just get me the damn footballs.
Once the AD is on board, everythng else is on the coach, which I would list in no particular order as follows: -Players excited to be a part of something better than any thing they have been a part of before -Community support/attendance/excitement -A great group of knowledgable coaches who expect the best from their position players -Same as above for JR High coaches -Top to bottom buy in from everyone who is associated with the football program. By this I mean the bus drivers to the players to the secretaries to the fans to whoever else is involved is wearing your gear and supporting your team.
Our program is no where near where we need to be to be considered an "elite" or top notch program. But we are slowly trying to get there. I use a schol in our conference as a bench mark for success. They have had the same coach for about 12 years I think. Talent may be down some years but they still win games. Everyone of there fans is wearing their team colors. Local business people are tripping over themselves to help them financially etc. That is elite to me.
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