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Post by fantom on Jul 17, 2013 16:21:34 GMT -6
The thread about the kids playing Legion baseball reminded me of a question that I posed earlier. Because of when this question came up the situation has been resolved and we now know how it ended. I'm curious what others think.
Two years ago I attended a game in my old hometown in PA. While I was there I heard that the team's star player would be missing a football game to attend a baseball showcase. The player was a baseball-first kid who only agreed to play football if the coach agreed to let him miss the game for the showcase. I was wondering what people thought about this?
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2013 16:40:43 GMT -6
The thread about the kids playing Legion baseball reminded me of a question that I posed earlier. Because of when this question came up the situation has been resolved and we now know how it ended. I'm curious what others think. Two years ago I attended a game in my old hometown in PA. While I was there I heard that the team's star player would be missing a football game to attend a baseball showcase. The player was a baseball-first kid who only agreed to play football if the coach agreed to let him miss the game for the showcase. I was wondering what people thought about this? I wouldn't do it. I try to surround myself with people to whom Football means something. Then we will have a better chance to win. And if we lose, I can live with it much easier. How can you justify saying "I'd LIKE to play Football but I'm going to miss a GAME for another (out of school season) sport"? How do you justify that to the FOOTBALL kids who have been committed and there? "Hey, Johnny, you get to start this week because Sammy is going to a 'Baseball Showcase' event, but when he's back next week, you're standing behind me again on Friday Night, because he's better than you and if we lose I might get fired." Doing things like this is the fastest way I can think of to destroy Morale, and if you don't have that, you don't have a chance. |
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Post by spos21ram on Jul 17, 2013 16:54:41 GMT -6
Only thing I don't like is the "only way I'll play is if you let me miss this game". If this kid re-worded it and said "Coach I have a baseball showcase on October 17th and will have to miss the game" I would be fine with it. A little ticked off, but i would accept it. I'd rather have a great player helping the team for 10 of 11 games rather than 0. We have had players miss games for friggin college visits. How awful is that.
And more that I think about it, if the kid gave us notice ahead of time I don't think the admin would allows us to tell the kid he can't be on the team anyway
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Post by fantom on Jul 17, 2013 17:06:50 GMT -6
Only thing I don't like is the "only way I'll play is if you let me miss this game". If this kid re-worded it and said "Coach I have a baseball showcase on October 17th and will have to miss the game" I would be fine with it. A little ticked off, but i would accept it. I'd rather have a great player helping the team for 10 of 11 games rather than 0. We have had players miss games for friggin college visits. How awful is that. And more that I think about it, if the kid gave us notice ahead of time I don't think the admin would allows us to tell the kid he can't be on the team anyway Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards That was a paraphrase. I have no idea what was actually said. |
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Post by coachcb on Jul 17, 2013 17:16:05 GMT -6
Only thing I don't like is the "only way I'll play is if you let me miss this game". If this kid re-worded it and said "Coach I have a baseball showcase on October 17th and will have to miss the game" I would be fine with it. A little ticked off, but i would accept it. I'd rather have a great player helping the team for 10 of 11 games rather than 0. We have had players miss games for friggin college visits. How awful is that. And more that I think about it, if the kid gave us notice ahead of time I don't think the admin would allows us to tell the kid he can't be on the team anyway Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards This. I usually willing to compromise as long as the players and parents are reasonable. However, I won't be held hostage. We had an excellent track athlete give me a long list of track practices and meets she would be missing for the rodeo circuit. She didnt ask me, she wasnt polite about it; she just told me the way it was. I told her it wasn't acceptable and to enjoy her rodeo career. |
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2013 18:06:07 GMT -6
Only thing I don't like is the "only way I'll play is if you let me miss this game". If this kid re-worded it and said "Coach I have a baseball showcase on October 17th and will have to miss the game" I would be fine with it. A little ticked off, but i would accept it. I'd rather have a great player helping the team for 10 of 11 games rather than 0. We have had players miss games for friggin college visits. How awful is that. And more that I think about it, if the kid gave us notice ahead of time I don't think the admin would allows us to tell the kid he can't be on the team anyway Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards This. I usually willing to compromise as long as the players and parents are reasonable. However, I won't be held hostage. We had an excellent track athlete give me a long list of track practices and meets she would be missing for the rodeo circuit. She didnt ask me, she wasnt polite about it; she just told me the way it was. I told her it wasn't acceptable and to enjoy her rodeo career. ...and the horse she rode in on? |
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Freshmen Member
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Post by next on Jul 17, 2013 18:52:51 GMT -6
"son... I completely agree that baseball is a great option for you and I think you have a shot at possibly getting a scholarship. However, one of the things young men your age don't think about is that there are far fewer baseball scholarships that there are football scholarships. I think you might have the talent to develop into a scholarship football player and you will likely have a much greater chance at actually getting a football scholarship. I really believe that because I believe in you. Now... I know you are aware of the rules for the team and I simply cannot have you on my team if you miss a game for any reason other than being sick. I think you have a tough decision to make and I'll support you with either decision, but I really hope you choose football because this school, our team, and more importantly YOU will really enjoy the opportunity to lead our team to the championships"
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Post by coachcb on Jul 17, 2013 19:45:36 GMT -6
This. I usually willing to compromise as long as the players and parents are reasonable. However, I won't be held hostage. We had an excellent track athlete give me a long list of track practices and meets she would be missing for the rodeo circuit. She didnt ask me, she wasnt polite about it; she just told me the way it was. I told her it wasn't acceptable and to enjoy her rodeo career. ...and the horse she rode in on? Welcome to coaching in the boonies |
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Post by silkyice on Jul 17, 2013 20:43:07 GMT -6
About the only way I could do this is for him to also have to sit out the next game. There has to be some penalty, and in my opinion, it can't just be extra conditioning.
I am still not sure how it would sit with me. There are plenty of other opportunties to get looked at. Is this one out of ten other showcases going to be the difference?
Also, the show case should be on Saturday. If he and his parents are comitted to both, leave after the game and drive all night if necessary. The kid can sleep in the car.
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Post by newt21 on Jul 17, 2013 21:35:12 GMT -6
as long as he was upfront about it and went about asking in a respectful manner well in advance i wouldn't have an issue, but as silkyice said, there would have to be a penalty and you would have to let him know what it will be in the beginning. i'd rather have the kid out there if he can help the team for 10 of 11, and have him accept the price of his decision to miss the game.
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Post by tothehouse on Jul 17, 2013 23:34:12 GMT -6
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Post by dubber on Jul 18, 2013 12:37:23 GMT -6
I have no issue with this......he's playing scout during that week, but outside of that, I'm good.
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Post by dubber on Jul 18, 2013 12:40:10 GMT -6
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Post by rudyrude9 on Jul 18, 2013 14:07:38 GMT -6
I think with situations like these you let your seniors decide. Take a vote.
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Post by silkyice on Jul 18, 2013 14:49:31 GMT -6
I think with situations like these you let your seniors decide. Take a vote. The problem is, the seniors will almost always vote to let the guy miss and come back unless the guy is the ultimate jerk. Maybe a better solution and one that you might have been saying anyways, is to let the seniors decide the punishment. It could range from no punishment, suspension, extra running or whatever, to dismissal. Let them decide that. Ironically, players many teams will deal out harsher punishments than the coaches would. |
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Post by jg78 on Jul 18, 2013 15:11:29 GMT -6
Not necessarily. We have all had players who could not have touched a weight or football all summer and instead spent that time eating chips on the couch with nothing but beer and girls on his mind and still show up for the first day of practice with a hangover and be better than his dedicated backup who would replace him.
As for the question, I would let him on the team but there would be pretty stiff consequences for missing a game.
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Post by fantom on Jul 18, 2013 15:25:43 GMT -6
Not necessarily. We have all had players who could not have touched a weight or football all summer and instead spent that time eating chips on the couch with nothing but beer and girls on his mind and still show up for the first day of practice with a hangover and be better than his dedicated backup who would replace him. As for the question, I would let him on the team but there would be pretty stiff consequences for missing a game. Given the fact that the coach agreed to excuse him well before practice even began why should there be any punishment? Another point: somebody mentioned how rare baseball scholarships are and that's true. This player wasn't hoping to earn one at the showcase. He already had one. He was going to be seen by pro scouts. |
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Post by blb on Jul 18, 2013 15:41:00 GMT -6
Not necessarily. We have all had players who could not have touched a weight or football all summer and instead spent that time eating chips on the couch with nothing but beer and girls on his mind and still show up for the first day of practice with a hangover and be better than his dedicated backup who would replace him. Actually, not - in our program. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 18, 2013 16:37:38 GMT -6
About the only way I could do this is for him to also have to sit out the next game. There has to be some penalty, and in my opinion, it can't just be extra conditioning. But coach, isn't that a little bit like suspending a kid for skipping school? In this situation, the student in question made a choice. This choice resulted in him missing a football game--and so you want to apply a penalty. The penalty is a choice by you..that results in him missing a football game. I agree with both of these points. These two points point to the underlying issue that is difficult for coaches to deal with: it isn't as important to most as it is to us. |
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Post by blb on Jul 18, 2013 16:52:53 GMT -6
About the only way I could do this is for him to also have to sit out the next game. There has to be some penalty, and in my opinion, it can't just be extra conditioning. But coach, isn't that a little bit like suspending a kid for skipping school? In this situation, the student in question made a choice. This choice resulted in him missing a football game--and so you want to apply a penalty. The penalty is a choice by you..that results in him missing a football game. I agree with both of these points. These two points point to the underlying issue that is difficult for coaches to deal with: it isn't as important to most as it is to us. If a kid skips school, doesn't impact anybody but him. Football is a Team game and especially in HS they should learn how to be member of a "Team." Baseball and Basketball (at most schools) have Try-Outs and cut kids. There usually is also the implied pressure that if you don't do the Off-Season stuff (Summer especially) - you'll be one of the cuts. Every Mom and Dad KNOWS Junior is getting a scholly because they've seen him shooting baskets in drive way, hitting off a tee, playing Little League, Junior Pro, etc. Not to mention they've been told as much by their Summer Legion or AAU coach. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 18, 2013 17:41:06 GMT -6
But coach, isn't that a little bit like suspending a kid for skipping school? In this situation, the student in question made a choice. This choice resulted in him missing a football game--and so you want to apply a penalty. The penalty is a choice by you..that results in him missing a football game. I agree with both of these points. These two points point to the underlying issue that is difficult for coaches to deal with: it isn't as important to most as it is to us. If a kid skips school, doesn't impact anybody but him. Football is a Team game and especially in HS they should learn how to be member of a "Team." Baseball and Basketball (at most schools) have Try-Outs and cut kids. There usually is also the implied pressure that if you don't do the Off-Season stuff (Summer especially) - you'll be one of the cuts. Every Mom and Dad KNOWS Junior is getting a scholly because they've seen him shooting baskets in drive way, hitting off a tee, playing Little League, Junior Pro, etc. Not to mention they've been told as much by their Summer Legion or AAU coach. yes blb I get that and agree. My point is that if the action of making a choice that causes one to miss a game deserves a penalty--making that penalty missing a game doesn't seem like the most logical thing. |
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Post by coachcb on Jul 18, 2013 18:01:48 GMT -6
Also, bear in mind that "compromise" means the parties disagree on an issue but come to common ground to solve the problem.
To me, this means that Lil Johnny, mom and dad need to be reasonable as well.
Take my cowgirl/trackster example. I would have conceded and let her miss a few meets but she still needed to there for practice. Her family owns a ranch and the livestock, ropes, barrels, rodeo clowns and horses aren't going anywhere. She had ample time to rodeo after track. We get out early on Fridays and our practices are short those days as well; she had plenty of time to strangle next month's veal.
But, they wouldn't 'compromise' so she was booted.
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Post by silkyice on Jul 18, 2013 18:38:27 GMT -6
My point is that if the action of making a choice that causes one to miss a game deserves a penalty--making that penalty missing a game doesn't seem like the most logical thing. I will agree that it is not the most logical thing, but it still might be the best thing. Here would be my reasoning: 1) Missing one game so that he can go to something that in his mind benefits him more is an easy choice for him. If you add in that he also has to stand on the sideline and watch his teammates and not play, that is a true penalty. Missing the first game was not a penalty to him. Now, if he is willing to miss two games and stand the embarrassment or agony of missing another game, then I guess going to the showcase really is that important to him. 2) I need to make dang sure that everyone in the program - players, administration, parents, even fans know that missing a game is not acceptable. There are really only two penalties that get a true message across to everyone in a real way. Those two ways are suspensions and dismissals. Chewing someone out, giving them extra conditioning, not starting him are punishments, but aren't quite like the public statement of suspension. Public in the fact that it will be visible. I don't mean I will make it public with my words. 3) Hopefully the suspension will act as a deterrent which is the best reason to discipline. Hopefully the player will choose that two football games are more important than one showcase especially when he has other showcases to go to or could possibly drive all night to go to this one. Hopefully the other players will realize that they just can't blow off a game because something else serves their interests more. What if a player missed because he wanted to go to a concert? Does he just miss that game? While the other is sports related, I am still not sure that in principle it isn't just as bad. 4) Players get suspended from teams for all sorts of things. Breaking team rules, missing curfew, being late, missing a practice, getting in trouble during the summer. How can any of that be worse than skipping a game because it benefits you more? Isn't being at the games a team rule? 5) This is personal, but I want to be able to have a clear conscience about playing that kid. And for me, I just can't if he doesn't have a suspension because my first reaction is dismissal, but I will agree that is not best for anyone. I will agree, it can sound illogical, but it also can be the most logical thing. At least maybe the best choice. |
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Post by spos21ram on Jul 18, 2013 19:05:44 GMT -6
Our schools policy for all sports is if you miss a game and it's unexcused you have to miss the same amount of games.
I also Coach baseball and a kid went on vacation and missed 3 games. He had to sit the next three games when he got back
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Post by Coach Bennett on Jul 18, 2013 19:46:03 GMT -6
This isn't about the kid, it's about the coach.
The kid presented the scenario, the coach accepted it and has to live with it.
Isn't that all there is to this story?
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Post by silkyice on Jul 18, 2013 20:10:20 GMT -6
This isn't about the kid, it's about the coach. The kid presented the scenario, the coach accepted it and has to live with it. Isn't that all there is to this story? I thought the op was asking what we thought of it? Sure if the coach said ok, he has to live with it. But then what kind of thread would this be? |
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Post by jg78 on Jul 18, 2013 22:05:46 GMT -6
Not necessarily. We have all had players who could not have touched a weight or football all summer and instead spent that time eating chips on the couch with nothing but beer and girls on his mind and still show up for the first day of practice with a hangover and be better than his dedicated backup who would replace him. Actually, not - in our program. You've never had, say, a QB with the "it" factor who was a super talented all-around athlete and would have been better than his backup whether he worked at it or not? That's hard to believe. |
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Post by Underdeveloped on Jul 18, 2013 22:45:13 GMT -6
I wouldn't have a problem if this kid was all in for me the rest of the time. Actually had this same scenario pop up a year ago. Told the kid to bring me a shirt. I feel like we always ask kids to do this, be here, do that, and sometimes lose sight of what its like for them. If a kid is all in 99.9 percent of the time (and that means ALL IN) then missing a day for something like this is acceptable, not good, but something i can work around.
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Post by blb on Jul 19, 2013 4:42:19 GMT -6
Actually, not - in our program. You've never had, say, a QB with the "it" factor who was a super talented all-around athlete and would have been better than his backup whether he worked at it or not? That's hard to believe. Kids who don't work out with their teammates start at the bottom of the depth chart, period. Those with bad attitudes (such as the earlier example) or discipline problems are not nominated for all-star teams. |
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Post by coacht2210 on Jul 19, 2013 6:49:03 GMT -6
we have a rule that if you miss a practice for any reason, at a minimum you will not start the next game. I would apply this to missing a game as well. Excused / unexcused can get very hairy and this took that out of the equation.
I liked this rule because at the least, the player who was at practice all week will start the game and at least play the first few series. It was completely my digression after that.
I tried to make it clear we are not punishing players who are not here, we are rewarding those who are here.
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