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Post by lochness on Nov 6, 2007 7:17:09 GMT -6
You know, I used to make fun of "fan with a whistle" coaches on our staff that always wanted to run whatever offenses they saw on TV ("hey, we need to run that offense like Texas runs with Vince Young....YEAH!). You know, It seems like more and more coaches are defining themselves this way now, though. I can't count how many posts there are on this board about...
"Hey, anyone have any Indianapolis Colts playbooks? We have a decent QB, and I want to install it."
or
"If anyone knows how to run Florida's offense at the Jr. Pee Wee level, please email me"
Are we really that thin that we've resorted to this? I mean, going to clinics and buying books on certain styles of offense is one thing, but requesting the offensive schemes of specific teams and / or being interested in them because they are successful this season on TV is a totally different thing.
My buddy has a coach on his staff that has read that old (supposed) NE Patriots 2003 passing playbook, and every year this guy's lone contribution to the offensive staff meeting is "I think we should run this Patriots offense..."
I know that there's really no "original thoughts" out there in football any more (or ARE there...), but this just seems to be a strange trend amongst coaches who come on these boards.
Also, what good is an offensive scheme or system if you have no concept on how to run it...what techniques are necessary, etc??
I'd appreciate hearing thoughts and comments around the table...
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Post by saintrad on Nov 6, 2007 7:27:52 GMT -6
have been there and done that on several teams over the last few years. If those coaches that did that were technically and tactically proficient coaches (i.e. coaches that coached the fundamentals) then I wouldnt have a problem with them saying things off the cuff like that. But, for the most part, those coaches just do some drills that may, or may not, apply to your scheme/system during practice. i have found that I tend to have to do a lot of re-coaching of their position players because fo that.
Now, getting a playbook and looking it over to find a wrinkle that might be used/adapted to our scheme is one thing, but a wholesale switch to a bunch of lines on a bunch of paper isnt very smart. The key is to understand the practice and implementation philospohy behind those "very successful schemes" otherwise you are just running lines on a piece of paper.
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Post by tog on Nov 6, 2007 7:31:40 GMT -6
i think a lot of those guys are just looking for an easy way
someone else to do all the work for them
so instead of having a system
they have a bunch of plays that they run but they don't know when and why
i have a ton of playbooks and a ton of books/tapes etc (not as many as jd does)
i study them
and see how things within can be used as wrinkles within our system
for example, we are a spread team, and I love reading about wing-t
there are a lot of things about wing-t i that i am not a big fan of, but just some of the thinking of how to attack and the defensive conflict that it presents is something i try and integrate into what we do
for example
we added the jets (now a staple for some wing t teams)
our complimentary plays off of jet come from studying how and why they do things with it
our answer is a bit different, but some of the concepts of flow and defensive conflict are paramount in our minds when designing things to do off of it
i will never run a canned offense
i will put in the work and draw things up against everything imaginable to make sure i put our kids in the best possible position to make plays
to do this, I have to understand it, and even more important, the kids have to be able to understand it
handing them a playbook and saying here, learn this, is about as dumb to me as a teacher in class just handing them an algebra book and saying, here, learn this stuff, test on friday night
if the teacher doesn't know it inside out, the kids won't either
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 6, 2007 7:36:58 GMT -6
The greatest tool a coach can have when watching tv is the ability to REWIND LIVE TV!!! OR PAUSE AND STILL FRAME!!!(man I love my dvr direct tv!!!) - I watch the games, if I see someone block something in a way I think I like I can rewind it and watch it a few times, same with defense, if I see a blitz I think I can use with my defense I can rewind it quickly and take a few peeks at it...
...but I agree, just doing something because its on tv seems kinda silly (pistol popularized over night when it was televised)...then again, there are lots of visual guys who need to see someone else run it so they can get what its suppossed to look like. Isnt that what double wingers have done over time with Markhams stuff?
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Post by lochness on Nov 6, 2007 8:05:00 GMT -6
I agree with what everyone here has said... I want to make it clear that I'm not talking about "running what is popular" or anything like that. I think we've had those discussions in the past. I think I'm trying to say (and I think you guys got it) is that the "thought process" is warped. It's like, rather than having the process start with the questions it SHOULD start with... 1. What do I know best as a coach 2. What do I have the ability to teach most effectively 3. What works best for our kids, type of community, and feeder programs 4. What will be flexible enough to adapt to changing personnel each year, rather than having to wholesale change the offense every 3-4 seasons... ...It seems like the process is backward. It seems like a lot of coaches are lost (or, like tog said, are looking for an "easy way"), and see something they really like on TV, and now they want to put it in BEFORE asking themselves all the right questions. It's like "Well, it worked really well for Joe Paterno, so it is obviously a sound offense that will bring me success!" I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't object to any particular offensive scheme...I object to some of the thought process that is put into deciding what to run and what not to run. I think the point coachcalande brings up is valid, but the DW is a different story because that is a very specific system that coaches have to really THINK about before installing it. It's actually on the other end of this spectrum, because nobody sees the DW on TV. People hear about it as an "equalizer" or whathever, and they go through the thought process of asking those questions, and they get the research materials that exist that help you install it as a living system. That is different than what I am talking about. And coachcalande, I will agree that DVR is AWESOME. I can't tell you how many times (much to my wife's annoyance) I will rewind a "sky cam" shot of a great off-tackle power play on TV or something like that! It's fantastic...!  |
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 6, 2007 8:27:10 GMT -6
gives a whole new meaning to "replay" doesnt it...
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Post by brophy on Nov 6, 2007 8:31:04 GMT -6
good question.
I remember being there starting out. Having a CONCEPT of what I wanted to do and knowing how to teach technique, but unable to really form it all together.
Fan with whistle would fit the description.
I remember thinking that if I just had the playbook for ND's defense, then I could get a team to play EXACTLY LIKE ND's DEFENSE!
The rationale is that you are looking for something to hide your nakedness. You have all the emotion (and desire) but no way to express / deliver it. It is like being on fire for the Lord, but not really knowing the Gospel (what do you preach?).
Now, I also understand the frustration expressed by Mr.Lochness.
Not because I 'know' anything or am better off now, but with the advent of THIS SITE, you should be able to find ANYTHING you are looking for or have questions about, if you just LOOK.
Also, the sooner you realize there is no silver-bullet offense or kryptonite defense, the FASTER you will learn what football is really about....about teaching fundamentals with a purpose. Whether you are DW or Gun Zone, it still boils down to moving people out of the way / creating a way for a runner.
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Post by lochness on Nov 6, 2007 8:45:03 GMT -6
good question. I remember being there starting out. Having a CONCEPT of what I wanted to do and knowing how to teach technique, but unable to really form it all together. Fan with whistle would fit the description. I remember thinking that if I just had the playbook for ND's defense, then I could get a team to play EXACTLY LIKE ND's DEFENSE! The rationale is that you are looking for something to hide your nakedness. You have all the emotion (and desire) but no way to express / deliver it. It is like being on fire for the Lord, but not really knowing the Gospel (what do you preach?). Now, I also understand the frustration expressed by Mr.Lochness. Not because I 'know' anything or am better off now, but with the advent of THIS SITE, you should be able to find ANYTHING you are looking for or have questions about, if you just LOOK. Also, the sooner you realize there is no silver-bullet offense or kryptonite defense, the FASTER you will learn what football is really about....about teaching fundamentals with a purpose. Whether you are DW or Gun Zone, it still boils down to moving people out of the way / creating a way for a runner. Yeah, I mean...maybe it's just me being selfish, but I much prefer the questions that allow some of the experts we have here on the board to flex their muscle and answer with some of their knowledge and experience. That promotes more LEARNING and not just an exchange of materials or ideas. |
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Post by brophy on Nov 6, 2007 9:08:47 GMT -6
[glow=red,2,300]Thought Process Behind Installing Offense;[/glow] [/b] (Have an answer for the worst-case scenario, you'll be better off rather than trying to impose your will on opponents blindly)2) What do I believe in to move the chains? (quick passing game, option, power, zone, Jet, etc)
3) What are the basic concepts required to make this work?(has nothing to do with unquantifiable terms.........if you had a 300 lbs lineman or a 150lbs lineman, what would you have to teach him to make this work?)
4) From these basic concepts, what are the complimentary plays to this (that stress the defense in a different way)5) What personnel grouping do I need to accomplish this?(position prerequisites)6) What formation accomodates this personnel grouping to run these plays?(don't line up just to line up because tradition says "Pro-I".....line up to put your players in position to do their job)7) How much time do I have?(don't think you're going to get your whole playbook installed in 2 weeks)8) Master the basics before you move on to any variation.....you cannot short-cut your way to proper fundamental execution. (If you can't run power effectively, don't expect to be running Power pass, Power waggle, Power boot)9) How much can you deliver competently to your players in one session? (having an hour for youth ball or 3 weeks in the Summer in HS, are two different things)10) What do you absolutely, positively NEED for the very first game?(don't waste time with stuff that you really don't need......MASTER the basics to be competitive until you get the first game out of the way)[/ul] |
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Post by deaux68 on Nov 6, 2007 10:04:00 GMT -6
It's real bad when the fan with the whistle is drawing up your offense and calling the plays. That's all I'll say about that.
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Post by superpower on Nov 6, 2007 10:07:57 GMT -6
You know, I used to make fun of "fan with a whistle" coaches on our staff that always wanted to run whatever offenses they saw on TV ("hey, we need to run that offense like Texas runs with Vince Young....YEAH!). You know, It seems like more and more coaches are defining themselves this way now, though. I can't count how many posts there are on this board about... "Hey, anyone have any Indianapolis Colts playbooks? We have a decent QB, and I want to install it." or "If anyone knows how to run Florida's offense at the Jr. Pee Wee level, please email me" Are we really that thin that we've resorted to this? I mean, going to clinics and buying books on certain styles of offense is one thing, but requesting the offensive schemes of specific teams and / or being interested in them because they are successful this season on TV is a totally different thing. My buddy has a coach on his staff that has read that old (supposed) NE Patriots 2003 passing playbook, and every year this guy's lone contribution to the offensive staff meeting is "I think we should run this Patriots offense..." I know that there's really no "original thoughts" out there in football any more (or ARE there...), but this just seems to be a strange trend amongst coaches who come on these boards. Also, what good is an offensive scheme or system if you have no concept on how to run it...what techniques are necessary, etc?? I'd appreciate hearing thoughts and comments around the table... Is it possible that some of what you are talking about is a result of the video game influence in our society? |
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wccoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 159
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Post by wccoach on Nov 6, 2007 10:14:30 GMT -6
I ran into this this year with our offense. We have been a spread with one & two back sets, but we were not having any success with the rushing game. Our issue was an O-line with terrible fundamentals and an inability to consistently block the assigned scheme. After our second game the O-Line coach suggests that we go to the power I and just "Bang it up in there".
The HC/OC starts to allow this discussion to continue and I ask them why they think the Power I will work now and not what we have used for the last 3 years.
The answer is "Well the zone is getting killed and the counter/trap game is worse."
My response is "Why is that?"
O-Line & HC Response: "We are too small and too slow at the Line"
My response: "I thought that is why we use the Spread and zone schemes."
O-Line & HC: "Well that is not working and we need to try something else".
My response: "How about we watch some film and grade out the O-Line to see where the breakdown is occurring, before we try to teach an entire different offense."
O-line & HC: "We are not going to have time for that if we are going to install the Power-I."
HC to me: "Coach, how bout you just worry about the quarterbacks and leave the rush game to us"
My response: "I will support you 100% if that is the decision you feel is best for our team and I will help in anyway I can." "Unfortunately I have not had any experience with the Power-I since PEE-WEE and I have spent the last 3 years teaching the Spread Zone Offense."
HC response: "Can you teach the QB to Hand the ball to the RB?"
My response: : "Sure, Are we going to reverse pivot or open up and I am going to need some time with the QB's and centers because we have not been under center in three years, what kind of action do we want the QB to use after the hand off."
HC response: "I'll have to get back to you on that after we put this together."
Needless to say that was a wasted week of practice and we were -40 yds rushing in week 3. The strange thing was that when we did pass, we went into the Spread and had some success.
My QB was very frustrated after the game and asked the HC "Are you trying to get me killed?"
The HC was puzzled.
QB: "Coach, don't you think they knew that we were going to pass when we went Spread, since we only ran the ball out of Power-I?"
HC:"Just do your job, OK"
Sorry about the rant, but this thread just hit a nerve. Anyway, we went back to the spread and had a tough year running the ball. HC has now resigned and I am waiting to see the AD and Principal about putting in for the HC job. I am an idiot for even thinking about being a HC again, but I love the kids and they need somebody with some experience.
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Post by brophy on Nov 6, 2007 10:18:23 GMT -6
My response: "How about we watch some film and grade out the O-Line to see where the breakdown is occurring, before we try to teach an entire different offense."
O-line & HC: "We are not going to have time for that if we are going to install the Power-I." LOL........that was great - thanks |
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 6, 2007 10:28:57 GMT -6
"My response: "How about we watch some film and grade out the O-Line to see where the breakdown is occurring, before we try to teach an entire different offense."
oh good ...youre working a HC who doesnt watch film?! yeah, youre in a world of hurt in that situation. been there, done that and still have the staff shirt to prove it I think.
and going to the power I will require AS MUCH IF NOT MORE work with the oline on blocking schemes, techniques and blitz pickup. you see a bunch of screwy looks now that youre abandoning or have abandoned the spread. Just my two cents.
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Post by spartancoach on Nov 6, 2007 10:29:56 GMT -6
Good to see that these discussions happen outside of our school as well.
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eric58
Junior Member
Me sparring Bruce Lee back in 79'
Posts: 298
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Post by eric58 on Nov 6, 2007 10:37:47 GMT -6
I just watched the movie "All the Right Moves" and they ran the 6-2 Stack Monster against the power I and stuffed it, so know I'm going to run this defense.
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Post by lochness on Nov 6, 2007 11:00:10 GMT -6
I just watched the movie "All the Right Moves" and they ran the 6-2 Stack Monster against the power I and stuffed it, so know I'm going to run this defense. Don't forget to "submarine the defensive line to stuff their run game," coach...! |
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Post by eickst on Nov 6, 2007 12:04:40 GMT -6
I just watched the movie "All the Right Moves" and they ran the 6-2 Stack Monster against the power I and stuffed it, so know I'm going to run this defense. Well i just got done watching "The Little Giants" and I am putting in the "Annexation of Puerto Rico" as my base offense. |
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Post by dubber on Nov 6, 2007 12:20:35 GMT -6
I think a good way to approach this is to ask:
"What specifically about that offense made it successful?"
Then, you are not just thinking, "I'm going to run flexbone option, because I just saw Navy beat ND with it"
You ask yourself, "What did the flexbone accomplish that made it hard on ND?"
Now you can start to understand offensive philosophy----not just offensive playbook
I hear you guys about "those" staff meetings where you leave and go home and kick the dog.....luckily, I had an OC that is VERY smart (and humble), and he would listen whenever I said, "but what exactly does that do?"
We came leaps and bounds in terms of execution and running our system, not just a collection plays.
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wccoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 159
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Post by wccoach on Nov 6, 2007 12:22:30 GMT -6
:-XI really do apologize for my little rant, but that was one of the craziest staff meetings I have ever been in. But to the question, I have had success with installing offenses by using a "Series" methodology. We usually start with a base series, such as Lead Series and install the blocking schemes for the series along with the counters and PA passing.
Ex. "Lead Series" (or ISO Series)
I back Leads (31,32,33,etc)
Split back Leads (31/22,32/21,33/24,34/23, etc)
Counter Lead
Lead Trap
Lead Sweep
Lead Power
Lead Waggle
Lead Boot
We rep this Series until the players are very quick and efficient in their assignments. Then we move to another "Series" such as Zone, or Veer or whatever offense we are installing.
I have used this way of installing offense for quite a few years and it is adaptable to any type of offense that you want to run. Just make sure that you start with what is considered the base plays and build up from there. It is much easier if you have fewer blocking schemes or can use a blocking scheme that crosses two "Series". Same type of method for the passing game. Start with 3 step or Quick game and move on to Drop back, sprint out, etc. Each Series should build on the Series before. Easy for the kids to learn but causes the coach to really think about how his offense fits together. If something does not build on the Series before then I really look hard as to why I am installing it. Just my way and I'm not all that bright.
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Post by brophy on Nov 6, 2007 12:51:03 GMT -6
SERIES football......yes...that is the way to go.
Now, in response to the author's issue.......it really stems from a much larger issue.
With as much information available with the contributors here...........I would admonish folks to;
Ask with purpose
Ever obligatorily ask someone "How ya doin'?" / "Hows it going?" / "How are you doing?"
and get the obligatory cheesedick answer, "keeping on keeping on" / "I'm still breathing" /
Neither the question or the response offered ANY bit of information that could lead anywhere.
No specifics, just an open-ended call-and-response.
"How do I stop Wing-T?" .................."How do I build a good defense?"........"What offense scores points?"
..................................................
.......................
..........................................what kind of answers do you think you will get (that will help) when you ASK questions without substance?
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Post by miami5 on Nov 6, 2007 12:58:00 GMT -6
I'm going through this this year. We run navy spread option, ran it last year as this was was first head coach job. This year we are having trouble and my coaches sound just like this.
let's try power I , heck option is not working. It's gone as far as parents saying I'm not using players( there son's ) in the most productive way, heck one farther thinks i should throw the ball to his son only every play..Not kidding either.....
Fact is after school budget cuts i lost one coach and the others now except for one are volunteers who have only coached pee wee level. after extensive work on my part to try and teach them I'm exshauted...
As some one said above, i have to go back and correct coaches...
And as for getting new coaches, thats a possibility for next year.
Problem here is the school was so far down that no one wanted it.
they were 1-29. last year we went 4-6 and beat a number 1 ranked team...
we only have 30 players total in the entire program and these coaches just make excuses.
I understand that we are out manned in size and strength, but they can not teach the fundamentals and that is going to be the point in todays meeting...
not lets try this or that.. get better at blocking, running, tackling.
schemes don't win championships
Miami5
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Post by wingt74 on Nov 6, 2007 12:59:56 GMT -6
You know, I used to make fun of "fan with a whistle" coaches on our staff that always wanted to run whatever offenses they saw on TV ("hey, we need to run that offense like Texas runs with Vince Young....YEAH!). You know, It seems like more and more coaches are defining themselves this way now, though. I can't count how many posts there are on this board about... "Hey, anyone have any Indianapolis Colts playbooks? We have a decent QB, and I want to install it." or "If anyone knows how to run Florida's offense at the Jr. Pee Wee level, please email me" Are we really that thin that we've resorted to this? I mean, going to clinics and buying books on certain styles of offense is one thing, but requesting the offensive schemes of specific teams and / or being interested in them because they are successful this season on TV is a totally different thing. My buddy has a coach on his staff that has read that old (supposed) NE Patriots 2003 passing playbook, and every year this guy's lone contribution to the offensive staff meeting is "I think we should run this Patriots offense..." I know that there's really no "original thoughts" out there in football any more (or ARE there...), but this just seems to be a strange trend amongst coaches who come on these boards. Also, what good is an offensive scheme or system if you have no concept on how to run it...what techniques are necessary, etc?? I'd appreciate hearing thoughts and comments around the table... Same topic coachhuey.proboards42.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1190314233&page=1One persons "system" is another person's "collection of plays" As long as you're teaching run, block, tackle...along with being safe, good sportsmanship, and having fun...what does it matter the X's and O's of a play? |
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Post by lochness on Nov 6, 2007 20:35:23 GMT -6
SERIES football......yes...that is the way to go. Now, in response to the author's issue.......it really stems from a much larger issue. With as much information available with the contributors here...........I would admonish folks to; Ask with purpose Ever obligatorily ask someone "How ya doin'?" / "Hows it going?" / "How are you doing?" and get the obligatory cheesedick answer, "keeping on keeping on" / "I'm still breathing" / Neither the question or the response offered ANY bit of information that could lead anywhere. No specifics, just an open-ended call-and-response. "How do I stop Wing-T?" .................."How do I build a good defense?"........"What offense scores points?" .................................................. ....................... ..........................................what kind of answers do you think you will get (that will help) when you ASK questions without substance? THIS is what I'm driving at... |
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Post by Coach Bruce on Nov 6, 2007 20:58:05 GMT -6
Question for you guys....I know little about the O line. For some reason this season I have been intriqued. Watching and learning as much as my little mind will let me. I thought I was picking it up and then I read you guys here and am confused. I know different blocking techniques like the angle, hook, drive, zone, reach.....but here I see you guys saying different "schemes" for blocking. One for each series. Help me here..explain? Thanks guys.
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Post by saintrad on Nov 6, 2007 23:52:46 GMT -6
Ask with purpose Neither the question or the response offered ANY bit of information that could lead anywhere. No specifics, just an open-ended call-and-response. The purpose of a question is to gain information that is relevant to both the asker and the responder (aka "soup question"). I have to agree with brophy on this one that it is important to ask fairly specific questions in order to gather the proper response. |
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Post by tog on Nov 7, 2007 6:40:22 GMT -6
Question for you guys....I know little about the O line. For some reason this season I have been intriqued. Watching and learning as much as my little mind will let me. I thought I was picking it up and then I read you guys here and am confused. I know different blocking techniques like the angle, hook, drive, zone, reach.....but here I see you guys saying different "schemes" for blocking. One for each series. Help me here..explain? Thanks guys. those are techniques schemes use techniques, but the scheme uses particular techniques for a reason, and the technique for the scheme changes due to front structure, their player, our player etc man on man scheme rule scheme zone scheme wing-t angle scheme those are the main ones and ways to think about it, i am sure there are about as many other ways to think about it as there are coaches though |
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 7, 2007 6:53:06 GMT -6
schemes are the xs and os, the tactics behind how the holes are opened. the blocking rules are the PRIORITIES OF ASSIGNMENT for the olineman and the techniques used will change depending on which type of block is being used to fit the scheme.
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Post by tog on Nov 7, 2007 7:34:27 GMT -6
schemes are the xs and os, the tactics behind how the holes are opened. the blocking rules are the PRIORITIES OF ASSIGNMENT for the olineman and the techniques used will change depending on which type of block is being used to fit the scheme. steve says it better than I could that's a good way of thining about it we just do it, had a bunch of good coaches to learn from, and have spent a lot and lot of time working on the whole thing to know what works and why |
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Nov 7, 2007 7:38:10 GMT -6
Good specific questions to ask. Dave: Any bets on how different that list would have been before brophy started coaching youth ball? ;D  ;D |
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;D