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Post by John Knight on May 15, 2013 5:17:29 GMT -6
Some assistant coaches teach technique and such that is not part of the head coaches program.
That is why the head coach should NEVER coach a position, he should coach the coaches!!!
I firmly believe this. In high school we have no Quality Control staff so it is the HC's job to make sure the SYSTEM is being taught EVERY day at EVERY position!!!
You have assistants not doing thier JOB, it is YOUR fault. Walk into their drill and embarrass them, show them how to do it right! They will Quit or change!
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Post by spos21ram on May 15, 2013 5:47:20 GMT -6
That can work in college or at high schools where assistants can be easily replaced, but if you have coaches quitting and cannot replace them then you as the HC will be coaching every positional group before you know it.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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Post by fcboiler87 on May 15, 2013 6:06:33 GMT -6
While I would agree with you, John, not all staffs have that ability. What if there just aren't enough coaches or even warm bodies to fill the spots? Then the HC has no choice but to coach a position. In a perfect situation, your instance is how it should be for the reasons you stated. However I doubt that is easily accomplished at the high school level.
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Post by newhope on May 15, 2013 6:28:16 GMT -6
It's another one of those "it depends on the situation" deals. What John describes is ideal. Years ago, I was a head coach and position coach. In more recent years I was able to "let go" some and let someone else coach the position I had been coaching--I usually do most of the coaching early in the season and the way we often arrange our practice schedule, I work with them for a part of the individual period almost every day. But I also am free to roam around and see what everyone else is doing as well. I have a QB coach, a RB coach (I used to be both of those as a HC), an offensive line coach and a receivers coach. I can easily see what's going on with QBs, RBs and receivers by placing myself in the right spot. I'll correct things I see and offer up individual coaching points and go over and work with a player to correct something. I have to stroll to where the linemen are--but I've been fortunate most years recently to have very good O-line coaches. When the defense is working, I have no responsibilities, so I can check on what they're doing or check on the JV offense (they work while the varsity is working defense). There's lots of work that someone else can do as well as I can with the position that I normally coach--I just like to be where I can monitor them closely. Another advantage is not only do I know what the coaches are doing, the players know I'm monitoring everything everyday and there is no way for them to slack off just because an assistant doesn't push them.
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Post by newhope on May 15, 2013 6:30:05 GMT -6
But I've been on the other end, where I had almost no help. Then I couldn't really coach a position either, I had to go to a different position everyday and basically do the coaching for that group. There's a way to burn out and to not be very good as well. Bottom line, of course, to the whole thing: good assistants make a good head coach.
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Post by tim914790 on May 15, 2013 6:37:52 GMT -6
What do you get out of embarrassing a coach in front of the kids? Now you are going to have kids that do not respect or listen to a coach. I completely agree they should be teaching your system and your technique but it is the HC's job to make sure they know that going forward. I think you get a lot more out of the situation in the long run if you address it after practice away from the kids. You can step in and correct a technique that is wrong with out embarrassing the coach.
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Post by rystaylo on May 15, 2013 6:48:22 GMT -6
John Knight,
are you being serious? How much do you pay your ACs? Have you had a lot of success with this?
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Post by fantom on May 15, 2013 7:14:10 GMT -6
What do you get out of embarrassing a coach in front of the kids? Now you are going to have kids that do not respect or listen to a coach. I completely agree they should be teaching your system and your technique but it is the HC's job to make sure they know that going forward. I think you get a lot more out of the situation in the long run if you address it after practice away from the kids. You can step in and correct a technique that is wrong with out embarrassing the coach. There's another reason for doing this in private- although Rule #1 may say that the boss is always right, sometimes the boss is wrong. Although ideally a header should be able to coach any position, in reality few understand the technical minutiae of every position. Obviously, if the HC sees a glaring error in practice he needs to correct it immediately but he's better served by doing it in private. You don't need to wait until after practice, you could call the assistant over to talk about it, but calling out the assistant may end up being even more embarrassing. Imagine a scene where a HC bawls out an assistant on the field, discusses it after practice, then realizes that he was wrong. Now, when you correct it in practice the next day you look like the Keystone Kops to the kids. This is NOT to say that the header should never step in. If the boss corrects an assistant in a professional manner and the assistant gets bent out of shape, said assistant may need to find a line of work where it's OK to be a biotch.
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coachmitts
Sophomore Member
Always compete
Posts: 186
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Post by coachmitts on May 15, 2013 7:44:52 GMT -6
What if the assistant is doing his own drill and it is yielding better results then that if the DC or HC? I ask because this was actually happening to me last year. My DC had my dline doing hybrid line linebacker drills. Obviously it wasnt helping the dline. So I tweaked how we started and the main focus and it improved our play instantly. However, the DC was pretty pissed... Thoughts?
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Post by John Knight on May 15, 2013 8:32:11 GMT -6
I am not a head coach but I was on a staff run that way and you can bet your butt we did what we were coached to do.
The head coach still called all the offensive plays and he took over on defense if he felt he was not getting a good game called. He knew what was going on at every facet of the game and could fill in if need be at any position. He told them (administration) when he hired that he would be hiring and firing assistant coaches and the board let him. He was very successful.
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Post by fantom on May 15, 2013 8:54:38 GMT -6
I am not a head coach but I was on a staff run that way and you can bet your butt we did what we were coached to do. The head coach still called all the offensive plays and he took over on defense if he felt he was not getting a good game called. He knew what was going on at every facet of the game and could fill in if need be at any position. He told them (administration) when he hired that he would be hiring and firing assistant coaches and the board let him. He was very successful. That's the ideal. I'm not sure that it's the reality at many, if not most, high school programs in the country.
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Post by jgordon1 on May 15, 2013 9:07:55 GMT -6
What if the assistant is doing his own drill and it is yielding better results then that if the DC or HC? I ask because this was actually happening to me last year. My DC had my dline doing hybrid line linebacker drills. Obviously it wasnt helping the dline. So I tweaked how we started and the main focus and it improved our play instantly. However, the DC was pretty {censored}... Thoughts? well the DC was probably mad because you didn't talk to him about it first...That being said, you probably need to show him on film how these drills are helping technique...I am with a new staff and I bring in film of every new technique I would like to try..so when others "suggest technique" I just simply ask them to show me some video...guys already kind of throwing it in my face..whatever
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Post by John Knight on May 15, 2013 9:08:33 GMT -6
I agree it is not the norm but why? I think it has more to do with guys being head coach but still wanting to be position coach and not really do the job of the head coach. If you want your assistants to do things your way you have to coach them. You can't do that while you are coaching the OL or LBs. Just my thoughts. You are better off to have a bunch of young slappies that will do what you say every day than a bunch of know it all experts who have their own agenda!
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Post by fantom on May 15, 2013 9:12:01 GMT -6
I agree it is not the norm but why? I think it has more to do with guys being head coach but still wanting to be position coach and not really do the job of the head coach. If you want your assistants to do things your way you have to coach them. You can't do that while you are coaching the OL or LBs. Just my thoughts. You are better off to have a bunch of young slappies that will do what you say every day than a bunch of know it all experts who have their own agenda! 1. That's assuming that the young slappies WILL do what you say. 2. Sometimes it's just a numbers problem. The school may not allow enough paid coaching positions.
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Post by hammer66 on May 15, 2013 9:13:54 GMT -6
I guess personally I would agree with JOHN KNIGHT. I coached with a guy like this. Have the utmost respect and he taught me a ton. As a man sometimes you need to get put in your place. Trust me you didn't make the same mistake twice. If you were not mentally tough enough to handle it you were never going to be a very good coach anyway. Honestly the same guys who don't want to get spoken to this way are usually treating the kids like garbage. Is it better for the HC to yell at a kid who is not being taught the proper technique? Now I have read on here that there was a concern that the kids would respond negatively to this approach towards the position coach. I have to tell you I never felt it was a problem. The Players knew that you know what rolls downhill. I see alot of those players still today and we joke about it. One last thing... there is no shortage of coaches where I live if I left there would be a line to get my spot.
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tekart
Junior Member
Posts: 298
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Post by tekart on May 15, 2013 9:20:51 GMT -6
At the school I am at we have a certain amount of coaches so I have to coach a position. On the weekends I have my staff review film and list 3 things there position kids did wrong and they need to have a plan to correct them.
It is not my policy to micro-manage every position. I trust that my coaches are going to be as professional as possible and attempt to become experts in their field. If they are not then they will be replaced.
I would never try to embarrass another coach in front of the players just like I would never try to embarrass a kid. I do these things behind closed doors and if they refuse to change then they are no longer needed.
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stu
Sophomore Member
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Post by stu on May 15, 2013 9:48:28 GMT -6
Where I was at last fall I had to coach a position. I had 3 full time guys. I guess defensively we could have had 1 line coach, 1 LB coach and 1 secondary coach but I've always liked the idea of having 2 line coaches if possible on defense and offensively, I really think you need to have at least 4 other guys in order to not coach a position as the head coach. QB, Backs, Receivers and OL, etc.
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Post by John Knight on May 15, 2013 10:34:24 GMT -6
You can call it micromanaging if you want but the wins and losses are on your record, no one else.
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Post by newhope on May 15, 2013 10:48:17 GMT -6
What do you get out of embarrassing a coach in front of the kids? Now you are going to have kids that do not respect or listen to a coach. I completely agree they should be teaching your system and your technique but it is the HC's job to make sure they know that going forward. I think you get a lot more out of the situation in the long run if you address it after practice away from the kids. You can step in and correct a technique that is wrong with out embarrassing the coach. I originally missed the part about embarrassing them in the drill. Sorry about that. I think that's better in private as well.
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Post by newhope on May 15, 2013 10:51:36 GMT -6
What if the assistant is doing his own drill and it is yielding better results then that if the DC or HC? I ask because this was actually happening to me last year. My DC had my dline doing hybrid line linebacker drills. Obviously it wasnt helping the dline. So I tweaked how we started and the main focus and it improved our play instantly. However, the DC was pretty {censored}... Thoughts? Then the assistant should get his own team...or at least be an assistant for someone he can follow. If I told you I wanted things done one way and you intentionally did it another because you thought you knew better, I would fire you. So would most head coaches. You're welcome to come to me, explain why you want to do it differently, and try to convince me to do what you want--but if you decide to go your own way, you won't be doing it with us. Let me put it another way, what would you do with a player who decided to do his own thing instead of what you coached him to do?
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Post by mattharris75 on May 15, 2013 10:51:49 GMT -6
What do you get out of embarrassing a coach in front of the kids? Now you are going to have kids that do not respect or listen to a coach. I completely agree they should be teaching your system and your technique but it is the HC's job to make sure they know that going forward. I think you get a lot more out of the situation in the long run if you address it after practice away from the kids. You can step in and correct a technique that is wrong with out embarrassing the coach. I missed the part in this thread where anyone said they were doing that. First post in the thread: "You have assistants not doing thier JOB, it is YOUR fault. Walk into their drill and embarrass them, show them how to do it right! They will Quit or change!"
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zsilver
Sophomore Member
Posts: 136
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Post by zsilver on May 15, 2013 10:53:08 GMT -6
I agree it is not the norm but why? I think it has more to do with guys being head coach but still wanting to be position coach and not really do the job of the head coach. If you want your assistants to do things your way you have to coach them. You can't do that while you are coaching the OL or LBs. Just my thoughts. You are better off to have a bunch of young slappies that will do what you say every day than a bunch of know it all experts who have their own agenda! Anyone whos been a Head Coach for more than 5 minutes wishes they could have more help and to let go of a position group. The scope of the job is pretty overwhelming, and although I will agree that at first I wished I could just clone myself and coach every position, as you get a few seasons under your belt you realize that quality assistants are a HCs greatest asset (along with their different perspectives and teaching techniques). I want coaches that can contribute, that can teach, and that are empowered to solve problems on their own so that im not consumed with nitpicky details. The CEOs time is to valuable for that stuff. Every HC needs to devote time to developing coaches, but if at all possible, in more of an administrative role (i've never had an administrator interrupt on of my lessons to correct me in front of my class... And if they did, it sure as heck would not motivate me to do my job better). Ideally, I hire coaches that I don't have to coach, but will certainly work to develop. Most of the details and small corrections are delegated to the coordinators. I want my coaches, much like my players to be able to adapt, improvise and overcome; if theyre dependent upon my detailed instructions every minute of everyday, im not sure they'll have those skills to fall back on when things don't go as planned. Philosophical differences I guess... Both valid, I just know my limits, and I don't have the knowledge, wisdom or time at this point in my career to coach every position coach. More power to those that do.
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Post by larrymoe on May 15, 2013 12:00:19 GMT -6
I agree it is not the norm but why? I think it has more to do with guys being head coach but still wanting to be position coach and not really do the job of the head coach. If you want your assistants to do things your way you have to coach them. You can't do that while you are coaching the OL or LBs. Just my thoughts. You are better off to have a bunch of young slappies that will do what you say every day than a bunch of know it all experts who have their own agenda! Anyone whos been a Head Coach for more than 5 minutes wishes they could have more help and to let go of a position group. The scope of the job is pretty overwhelming, and although I will agree that at first I wished I could just clone myself and coach every position, as you get a few seasons under your belt you realize that quality assistants are a HCs greatest asset (along with their different perspectives and teaching techniques). I want coaches that can contribute, that can teach, and that are empowered to solve problems on their own so that im not consumed with nitpicky details. The CEOs time is to valuable for that stuff. Every HC needs to devote time to developing coaches, but if at all possible, in more of an administrative role (i've never had an administrator interrupt on of my lessons to correct me in front of my class... And if they did, it sure as heck would not motivate me to do my job better). Ideally, I hire coaches that I don't have to coach, but will certainly work to develop. Most of the details and small corrections are delegated to the coordinators. I want my coaches, much like my players to be able to adapt, improvise and overcome; if theyre dependent upon my detailed instructions every minute of everyday, im not sure they'll have those skills to fall back on when things don't go as planned. Philosophical differences I guess... Both valid, I just know my limits, and I don't have the knowledge, wisdom or time at this point in my career to coach every position coach. More power to those that do. Not anyone. I've been a HC for 5 years and I have no desire to have anyone else coach the OL. I would never want to be a CEO type HC. That sort of makes you not a coach and more of a manager. Not a job I want.
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Post by larrymoe on May 15, 2013 12:04:38 GMT -6
The head coach still called all the offensive plays and he took over on defense if he felt he was not getting a good game called. Sounds like a real piece of work.
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Post by pvogel on May 15, 2013 12:21:59 GMT -6
If you have the resources (as in a large amount of good coaches in your area) then yes, a HC should not have to coach a position.
But very few of us are in that type of situation.
In fact, I'll be pretty surprised if I ever coach at a situation like that
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zsilver
Sophomore Member
Posts: 136
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Post by zsilver on May 15, 2013 12:28:13 GMT -6
Anyone whos been a Head Coach for more than 5 minutes wishes they could have more help and to let go of a position group. The scope of the job is pretty overwhelming, and although I will agree that at first I wished I could just clone myself and coach every position, as you get a few seasons under your belt you realize that quality assistants are a HCs greatest asset (along with their different perspectives and teaching techniques). I want coaches that can contribute, that can teach, and that are empowered to solve problems on their own so that im not consumed with nitpicky details. The CEOs time is to valuable for that stuff. Every HC needs to devote time to developing coaches, but if at all possible, in more of an administrative role (i've never had an administrator interrupt on of my lessons to correct me in front of my class... And if they did, it sure as heck would not motivate me to do my job better). Ideally, I hire coaches that I don't have to coach, but will certainly work to develop. Most of the details and small corrections are delegated to the coordinators. I want my coaches, much like my players to be able to adapt, improvise and overcome; if theyre dependent upon my detailed instructions every minute of everyday, im not sure they'll have those skills to fall back on when things don't go as planned. Philosophical differences I guess... Both valid, I just know my limits, and I don't have the knowledge, wisdom or time at this point in my career to coach every position coach. More power to those that do. Not anyone. I've been a HC for 5 years and I have no desire to have anyone else coach the OL. I would never want to be a CEO type HC. That sort of makes you not a coach and more of a manager. Not a job I want. Fair enough coach, probably shouldnt have made such a blanket statement, and see what youre saying, but I didn't mean to imply that HCs should not coach positions... more so that I don't believe in micromanaging all of my assistants, and if youre going to hire them to do a job, they should know what they're getting themselves into, so let them do it. I guess it depends on how the staff is set up but the HC is definitely a management position. I coach QBs/DBs, coordinate the ST and manage my O/D coordinators, who in turn manage their position coaches (gets a little blurry with me answering to each coordinator and managing them, but i do my best to let them do the job that they were hired (by me) to do). To your concern with coaching the oline... That's different. Oline coach, at least in my mind, is like another coordinator position. If the HC is the best OL coach on staff, then they're the O line coach. That said, if you can find an OL coach that you feel can do the job well (not easy to find) and that you trust full heartedly?... Life changing. No doubt I'll be loosing mine in a few years because he's OC/HC material, at which time I don't deny I'll probably share your opinion on the matter.
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Post by coachbdud on May 15, 2013 12:34:39 GMT -6
I think in theory that is an excellent idea
but I would say it is nearly impossible in it's application
Almost every HC I have ever met is the coordinator of at least 1 side of the ball, and ALL have been position coaches
I just think it is hard to find that many coaches ... if you have the man power, awesome
but most guys do not have the man power
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Post by carookie on May 15, 2013 12:39:24 GMT -6
I guess I am naive, but I have NEVER had an assistant who has done something different after I explicitly mapped out what he is to do. I teach them all the drills in the offseason (if they already did not know them) then the practice schedule is broken down by the minute; at this time you will be doing this drill, then at this time you will do this drill.
I get the point that you need so many coaches, but are there really that many insubordinate coaches out there? And FWIW, I'd still rather go recruit someone who works at a gym, has no experience whatsoever, and knows nothing about coaching to at least parrot what I have taught him to the kids (if these guys can be found); than someone who is trying to cut my legs out from under me.
I'd say cut down to the minimum number of coaches you need (if you really have that many who wont do the job), and get rid of the worst ones first.
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Post by newhope on May 15, 2013 14:17:46 GMT -6
I haven't had an insubordinate coach who did something different, but I have certainly heard of a good many who did. There are plenty of head coaches out there who are being undermined.
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Post by fballcoachg on May 15, 2013 17:43:37 GMT -6
I still dont see the point to embarrassing or ripping your coach in front of the kids especially if it isn't something that has already been addressed in private. What do you accomplish? You have alienated a coach, possibly made the other assistants look at you in a different light, and shaken the players confidence in the position coach or in yourself as the HC.
In a time where programs are really struggling to find coaches period can you really afford to be Johnny B.A. off rip instead of working with your guys in private? Call it being soft or whatever you want but if a coaches first line of thinking is to "embarrass" a coach in to submission instead of working with them then that isn't a staff many of us would line up to be on.
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