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Post by hammer66 on May 14, 2013 5:43:08 GMT -6
I coach in eastern Pennsylvania. When the HC leaves for any reason all of the coaches are relieved of duty as well. We are contracted on a yearly basis and have to be rehired every season. So the new HC that gets hired can rehire who he chooses and can bring on anyone he pleases. It keeps everyone loyal to the HC or you wont be back the next year. No exceptions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 6:06:06 GMT -6
Also, around here it's not so much they hang around, it's that if you get rid of them, there's NOBODY to fill their shoes. So you go from 8 coaches to 6 now and end up taxing the rest of the staff. I'm not talking about deadbeats in terms of they do nothing. I'm talking about guys that don't necessarily know what they are doing, or they keep "doing it the way we've always done it". These guys may know football, and may do the little things like help clean up the field, breakdown film etc., but they are set in their ways about what they do. A "for instance" was a several years back we had an old guy on staff that totally thought wrong-arming was the dumbest thing around. He was the DE's coach in the 4-3!!! The good thing was, the guy finally saw the light, however for every one of those, there's thousands of others that just don't "get it" and when that's all you got, it makes coaching tough. You need them, b/c they are rowing on their oar, just not always in the direction you want it... Duece
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Post by IronmanFootball on May 14, 2013 7:18:21 GMT -6
you have to wrong arm vs trap... no?? (MIND BLOWN)
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Post by msirishman on May 14, 2013 7:23:48 GMT -6
IIRC, deuce is the DC (& the new guy) & not the HC. So, I'm sure he doesn't have a say in who gets canned. I've been in this situation before. The HC & myself came into the program and had two assistants that had been there for 10 yrs. One did everything he could to learn our system and did a good job. The other never tried to learn it and didn't care to put in the time the rest of us did. He knew he couldn't be fired by the HC because he and the principal were pals.
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Post by coach2013 on May 14, 2013 11:13:01 GMT -6
you have to wrong arm vs trap... no?? (MIND BLOWN) Fritz Shurmer -" wont dont wrong arm anything"- he was of course speaking about his eagle five linebacker defense.
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Post by fantom on May 14, 2013 11:23:17 GMT -6
you have to wrong arm vs trap... no?? (MIND BLOWN) Fritz Shurmer -" wont dont wrong arm anything"- he was of course speaking about his eagle five linebacker defense. You can wrong-arm or not. Both ways work. If the defensive system in which you're working calls for wrong-arming, though, and the position coach isn't teaching it then you have a problem.
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nhs40
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Post by nhs40 on May 14, 2013 11:29:16 GMT -6
Finding coaches is one of the hardest part of the HC job (at least it has been for me). My expectations may be too high, but I want more than a "warm body" to help with our players. We set the bar high for our players, why not do the same for our coaches. We need/want people with lots of energy, will do what we ask the way we ask, and refuse to accept mediocrity. I have found that when people find these things out, it is not what they expected/wanted to hear. I just don't understand how some people believe you can be apathetic towards your players, practice, the competition, etc. and that NOT affect the performance of your team. If I have to coach harder because I have not hired people that I don't believe are a good fit, then I guess I'll really be "earning my money!"
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Post by cqmiller on May 14, 2013 11:41:00 GMT -6
Fritz Shurmer -" wont dont wrong arm anything"- he was of course speaking about his eagle five linebacker defense. You can wrong-arm or not. Both ways work. If the defensive system in which you're working calls for wrong-arming, though, and the position coach isn't teaching it then you have a problem. We had this one last year... Here is an inside-run conversation we had about week 3 last year: Scout Team Coach in Huddle - "Play #5 on script. Trap to the 3-technique... ready" Scout O runs trap and gains about 12 because the 3-technique does something that more closely resembles a date-rape move than a BDSD wrongarm which I have preached since day 1 of me getting here 3 years ago Me to the 3 technique - "What the hell was that? When you are unblocked by your guard, what do you do?" Player - "____________________" Me - "You step-down, squeeze the hole shut and wrongarm the puller!!!" 3-technique - "what is a wrongarm?" Me wanting to kill kid - "this...!" (I grab 2 kids and quickly have one block down and the other come to kick me out) "you take your outside shoulder and drive it through the puller's inside hip to take away the inside gap he is trying to open up" 3-technique - "we were told to FLIPPER the puller" Me - "by who?... what the hell is a flipper"
3-technique - "by coach ___________ (our DT coach)". This is the flipper (shows me his date-rape move) Me - "You need to squeeze and wrongarm, do you understand?" 3-technique - "yes coach" Me - "get back in there and do it right!" - "Coach run play 5 again!!!" Me to DT coach - "Coach _______ why do the DT's not know what a wrongarm is? We are in week 3 of the season and have supposed to have been working on this since July" DT Coach - "when I was at ________ college in the 80's we did this 'flipper' thing and I really liked it so I taught them that" Me - So all the meetings we have had as staff about the defensive scheme and all the times we tell the LB's to scrape outside because the ball will be spilled to you by DT or DE doing a wrongarm vs. trap/power/counter it never crossed your mind to tell me that the concept our entire defense is based on is something you weren't teaching?" Found out I had lots of things taught during indy-time while I was working with LB's or QB's that was not even close to something that fit in with our offensive/defensive schemes... stressful when I am asking a kid to do something that I have told the coaches to teach them and they have never heard of it before...
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Post by John Knight on May 14, 2013 11:53:19 GMT -6
You got something against dolphins CQ???
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Post by cqmiller on May 14, 2013 11:56:23 GMT -6
"They are intelligent and friendly on some Rye bread with mayonaise"
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Post by newhope on May 14, 2013 11:58:53 GMT -6
I've been fortunate enough to be part of some really good staffs---but never fortunate enough that everyone was a "quality" coach. There are probably always going to be some who don't put in a lot of effort and some who aren't as knowledgeable as you would like. Hopefully, the ones who arent' as knowledgeable or who don't have the experience are willing to learn and put in the effort it takes to do so--then you've got a chance. Hopefully the ones who don't put in a lot of effort will at least do the things you assign them to do. I always assign various responsibilities to different coaches. The ones who are not as capable are given jobs that don't require much ingenuity, thought, creativity or initiative. They tend to be some of the "dirt" jobs--help load the bus, pick up equipment after the game, etc. Now, if they can't coach and can't do that kind of stuff either, then they've got to go. I'd rather do it myself or find a warm body who can pick up equipment and not get in the way the rest of the time. Give me a really good DC, a really good O-line coach, and one or two guys who are willing to work hard regardless of what they already know and I think I'll be OK.
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Post by larrymoe on May 14, 2013 12:24:09 GMT -6
you have to wrong arm vs trap... no?? (MIND BLOWN) I've never taught kids to wrong arm a trap. Tell them to trap the trapper. Find him and blow him up in the hole. No hole=No trap play.
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Post by cqmiller on May 14, 2013 12:29:55 GMT -6
If "trap the trapper" means "get your head inside the hole and use your outside shoulder to make contact with the puller" than you are basically teaching 'wrongarm' but calling it 'trap the trapper'. We teach our guards on trap to get their head inside and open up the inside hole, so on defense we want to close that inside hole with our head on inside. We call it wrongarm.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 12:32:20 GMT -6
you have to wrong arm vs trap... no?? (MIND BLOWN) There's a reason it's called "wrong arming." That's because players used to be taught to keep their outside arm free against any type of kickout block. Trap is one of the oldest plays in football, so this is how it was handled by defenses for about a century. I'm not that old and this is how *I* was taught to play traps because the guys I played for just passed on what they'd learned from their old fashioned coaches. I don't think it's the best way, but it can work. Now in cqmiller's story... that defense is supposed to wrong arm. That the DL coach would be so arrogant is beyond me. I'd like to see the Date Raping Flipper move on film.
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Post by fantom on May 14, 2013 12:35:49 GMT -6
you have to wrong arm vs trap... no?? (MIND BLOWN) I've never taught kids to wrong arm a trap. Tell them to trap the trapper. Find him and blow him up in the hole. No hole=No trap play. Yeah, but that's not the point. The point was that, while preparing for the third game of the season, he found out that all along the DL coach had been teaching pretty much the opposite technique of what he was supposed to teach.
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Post by larrymoe on May 14, 2013 12:38:04 GMT -6
If "trap the trapper" means "get your head inside the hole and use your outside shoulder to make contact with the puller" than you are basically teaching 'wrongarm' but calling it 'trap the trapper'. We teach our guards on trap to get their head inside and open up the inside hole, so on defense we want to close that inside hole with our head on inside. We call it wrongarm. No, we want them to collision it head up and quickly shutting the hole down. In a perfect world they would be able to still get off the block and make a play when the back bounces it. But basically we just want them shutting down the hole by causing a giant cluster there.
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Post by larrymoe on May 14, 2013 12:39:52 GMT -6
I've never taught kids to wrong arm a trap. Tell them to trap the trapper. Find him and blow him up in the hole. No hole=No trap play. Yeah, but that's not the point. The point was that, while preparing for the third game of the season, he found out that all along the DL coach had been teaching pretty much the opposite technique of what he was supposed to teach. Oh, I know. I was just responding to the question of if you have to teach a wrong arm. Teach whatever you want, but as an asst it is your job to teach what the HC wants. No matter how stupid it is.
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Post by John Knight on May 14, 2013 12:41:39 GMT -6
That is why the head coach should NEVER coach a position, he should coach the coaches!!!
I firmly believe this. In high school we have no Quality Control staff so it is the HC's job to make sure the SYSTEM is being taught EVERY day at EVERY position!!!
You have assistants not doing thier JOB, it is YOUR fault. Walk into their drill and embarrass them, show them how to do it right! They will Quit or change!
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Post by larrymoe on May 14, 2013 13:12:58 GMT -6
May 14, 2013 13:41:39 GMT -5 John Knight said: That is why the head coach should NEVER coach a position, he should coach the coaches!!!
You have assistants not doing thier JOB, it is YOUR fault. Walk into their drill and embarrass them, show them how to do it right! They will Quit or change!
I've literally never coached in a school where the HC wasn't a position coach.
In the situation you describe, I'd never want to be a HC.
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Post by cqmiller on May 14, 2013 13:19:42 GMT -6
I've only been at one HS where the HC isn't a coordinator and a position coach on at least one side. We had (now) 5 head coaches on the staff at the time. He could afford to.
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Post by newhope on May 14, 2013 13:29:31 GMT -6
I'm a HC, not a position coach, although I do run the offense. However, during indy I'm free to roam. During defensive periods, I'm free to roam. I've been in situations where I was HC and a position coach--believe me, this is MUCH better. I actually know what the assistants are doing. I move around. I'm not going to intentionally embarrass one of them at practice in front of the kids (don't say it hasn't happened, but I didn't intentionally set out to do it), but I will get it done the way I want it.
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Post by larrymoe on May 14, 2013 14:03:16 GMT -6
I guess I'm too much of a control freak. There's no way I'm letting someone else coach the OL.
I also, will admit, that I don't know what the hell a QB is supposed to do, so I guess I wouldn't really know what to teach anyway. WRs? Stalk block. RBs? Be fast and don't fumble the ball. That's my areas of concern with the other parts of our offense.
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Post by hammer66 on May 15, 2013 5:44:42 GMT -6
When I first started coaching at the school I am at now it was JUNIOR HIGH. The HC was around forever and was on the Varsity staff for a decade with a coaching legend from our area. He employed a great tactic to get you to do what he wanted. He never ever yelled at a player for not using the correct technique. When a player screwed up the position coach got yelled at. Sometimes it was demeaning....I can tell you that you made sure your players were doing what they were suppose to so you did not feel the wrath. You either learned to do your job or quit because your pride couldn't handle the abuse. Now I know some might think that is a bit hard but this guy pumped out quality assistants for the Varsity program. When you got your opportunity you were beyond ready and it was a cake walk. The HC at Varsity never had to tell you when and what your job was.
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Post by newhope on May 15, 2013 6:35:36 GMT -6
LarryMoe, I find quality o-line coaches I can trust. It's a necessity for me. The way you are about o-line, I am about QBs. I'll let someone else work mechanics with them. I work the mental part of running the offense with them---I won't trust anyone else with that.
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Post by ramcoachdc on May 15, 2013 9:06:19 GMT -6
We are working through this at present. Small school with limited coaching resources.
Last year as DC we actually changed from a 425 / Under defense to a 34 becasue i was the only coach on staff that understood the BDSD stuff. Our position coaches all came from 52 / 53 backgrounds and just would not put in the time to learn it. Ultimately i got to the point it was easier for me to change then it was for 4 other coaches. I'm still not happy about it either.
One thing that did help for us is get your entire staff to attend a college clinic. That way they understand it is not just "YOU" that wants to do it some way. We went to a small 34 college and when the position coaches saw the level of detail at that level it started to click.
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Post by IronmanFootball on May 15, 2013 17:40:55 GMT -6
I wish I could float on offense and do some QC. On defense it would be HARD to stop coaching LBs, but I'm sure I could if I had someone I could trust. I just love coaching them, have for 9 of 10 years, and I only played there maybe a dozen plays in my 10 year career... so it's not about "where I played" I played OL and could easily walk away from that.
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Post by coachcb on May 16, 2013 17:51:18 GMT -6
This is exactly why I will only take on HC jobs at SMALL schools. I've been poking around, looking for 8-man jobs again so I don't have to deal with the staff situations. You really only need 3 coaches in a small program and that minimizes the damage that the idiots can do.
One program in the state had 60 kids out in 9-12 and they operated with 4 coaches just to make sure there were quality coaches.
In all reality, there isn't much you can do about poor assistants other than get rid of them.. I have gone through hell and back trying to coach assistants up, manage them professionally and get them in board.
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Post by CoachCP on May 16, 2013 21:41:17 GMT -6
Let me give you the "assistant coach" who is looking perspective, as I was just recently one. You may disagree, but it's some food for thought. Caution: This is going to sound very egotistical, that's not what I'm after. I'm trying to point out a flaw in the coaching hiring process at the high school level. So please, forgive me if I come off like an ego filled jag.
The question for coaches who are hiring is, if you're failing to find good assistants who meet your qualifications, it's insane to keep doing the same things over and over again and expect to have a good assistant fall into your lap (or a coach-able prospective one). And sometimes the best one's might not be able to commit like you can, so take what you can get out of them and run with it.
I just moved to Indy. I put on Strong Football (my site with a large following, not CoachHuey large, but we're talking several thousand coaches a month, many in the Indianapolis area), Twitter (over 800 followers at the time, again with some in Indy) and on here that I was looking for a job to coach as an assistant.
I did not a single sniff. No one out reached. It took me out reaching and some dumb luck to get a few offers that I ultimately turned down (my job will not let me coach as it turned out unfortunately). I found out I couldn't coach this year after I had met these individuals unfortunately. ****Now I know it's my responsibility to out reach to coaches, and I totally expect/understand that, BUT these coaches told me, and I heard it in some conversations in general at the Indy glazier, that there just aren't enough QUALITY coaches in the area. I spoke to others looking for jobs there. There definitely seem to be some quality coaches, they're just not being found.
Regardless, when I was applying for my marketing jobs, I had 4 or 5 people contact me out of the blue through LinkedIn and other means. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not, by any means, a great marketer. I had no marketing connections in Indy. No website. No forum. Minimal social presence (a linkedin profile). Almost nothing.
I feel I'm a much better coach then marketer (and my LinkedIn profile, my site, social and past career history point to that). I have some marketing skill, and know how to market myself and write a good resume, but I shouldn't have stood out. Still, head hunters found me.
For football coaches, that doesn't happen. I didn't get anyone to call me out of the blue. I tweeted about it. I wrote about it. I even let people with Indy connections know I was looking. It took going to a Glazier clinic, cold emailing, and talking to people to get people interested in me as a coach.
Hardly ever does good talent go unnoticed at the corporate level. It happens all the time in coaching.
There is probably a lot of talent sitting there. Maybe that can't be a full time commitment, which sucks. But if you can get a part time coach, and you can't find any other people who are talented, then work with that. Your goal should be to find the best assistants and maximize their ability. Look in obscure places. Talk to people. Don't be scared to hire a dad, he may be your best bet. You need to turn over rocks.
As much as you research coaching here, if you're in need of assistants and you're a head coach, you should be looking into head hunting and talent scouting practices. If you don't have the ability to hire, see if you can get a volunteer. If they can't commit without pay to something more that 2 days a week, take it if they've got the potential to be anything better than your worst assistant, even at half the time.
Sorry for the novel, just my thoughts. I know I came off like an @$$, I'm really not trying to complain about my situation or try to sound like I'm God's gift to coaching in Indianapolis. All I'm trying to say is try different methods and research talent scouting/recruiting/hiring skills if you need it, b/c it's not done right from what I can tell.
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Post by John Knight on May 17, 2013 5:41:35 GMT -6
My post about this basically says that most head coaches don't have the power to do anything but wring their hands about what they get and then they are too busy getting their own rocks off coaching "their guys" that they don't do the head coaching job. Most head coaches don't go to the board and tell them how bad they need to get good assistants into the system and politic for teachers to be hired that are good coaches. It takes a lot of work to do that that is not football related and most guys just want to coach.
I hear what you are saying and fully agree but most head coaches have little say in hiring their coaches.
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Post by ramcoachdc on May 17, 2013 6:21:46 GMT -6
Unfortuneately around our neck of the woods AD's are in charge of writing checks to pay coaches. And finding a math teacher who is also a great FB coach and wants to live in BFE is not always an easy fill. Especially when your AD was a former CC coach and doesn't really care about the FB program.
Its my least favorite day of fall camp each year when the AD rolls in and strolls around practice in a suit like he is doing something meaningful. Wants to give some blah blah talk. Uggh.
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