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Post by zherteltherrien on Mar 3, 2013 20:20:49 GMT -6
At the Big New England Football clinic I was fortunate enough to listen to a few NFL coaches and they were all stressing fundamentals over scheme. I know at my last few coaching stops the emphasis has been on scheme. Where do your programs fit?
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Post by realdawg on Mar 3, 2013 20:34:23 GMT -6
I just had this conversation the other day. I believe you have to have both and they go together. It doesn't matter how you line up if you stand up and look for the ball on D. At the same time, if you don't have anyone responsible for B gap your in bad shape too. Overall, I'd say fundamentals are more important. I believe is a simple sound scheme and solid fundamentals and repping it over and over.
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Post by wingtol on Mar 3, 2013 20:46:47 GMT -6
Fundamentals.
It all fits together though. If you can't block and tackle it really doesn't matter how advanced your scheme is. You have to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run.
When you build a house do you start with the shingles? No. You start with the foundation and walls then make it look all pretty. That's how I view fundamentals (they are the foundation) and scheme (they are the pretty stuff inside the house). Can;t have one with out the other but you have to start somewhere.
Just out of curiosity...how successful were the teams at your other stops?
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Post by coachweav88 on Mar 3, 2013 21:01:39 GMT -6
The big thing is that your players know what do do (assignment) and how to do it (fundamentals). A solid scheme is one where both of these aspects can be executed well. In my experience, I have found that you will very rarely win by outsmarting your opponent. However I have found that you win by outexecuting your opponent. The only team we have ever outsmarted was ourselves.
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Post by calkayne on Mar 4, 2013 5:11:54 GMT -6
Fundamentals.
Scheme puts the players in the right place, but what use is that if they dont know what to do when they get there.
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Post by leighroy353 on Mar 4, 2013 5:23:01 GMT -6
I agree with what the other coaches have said, fundy over scheme.
All our drills are run from specific alignments so we get hidden scheme install throughout fundamental time. First thing we focus on is feet placement and reads, then we build up from there.
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Post by julien on Mar 4, 2013 5:36:00 GMT -6
Fundamentals for sure.
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Post by davishfc on Mar 4, 2013 6:58:55 GMT -6
I believe there is a certain threshold that must be passed regarding fundamentals in order to be effective. That threshold in my mind is not 100%. Of course, no coach is going to be against that happening by any means. However, in terms of understanding scheme, as close to 100% understanding and proper execution of responsibilities is absolutely vital in my opinion. I have had OL who got to their assignments consistently (knew the scheme inside and out) and grading out at B-'s in their technique but were still very good linemen for us. Some of what we do as coaches is refine technique or correct mistakes. We don't necessarily correct every single little thing, that clouds their mind, at least it has in my experience in with high schoolers.
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Post by indian1 on Mar 4, 2013 7:09:41 GMT -6
I think when those guys at clinics say "focus on fundamentals" they are assuming that your scheme is sound. There's a lot of HS coaches out there who are simply not sound scheme wise. You gotta have a solid sound scheme first (I did not say complicated) then its fundamentals fundamentals....
Think about the saying " a bad block on the right guy is better than a great block on the wrong guy" so... teach who to block then how to block
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Post by davishfc on Mar 4, 2013 7:56:52 GMT -6
I think when those guys at clinics say "focus on fundamentals" they are assuming that your scheme is sound. There's a lot of HS coaches out there who are simply not sound scheme wise. Yes. This is true.
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Post by calkayne on Mar 4, 2013 7:59:45 GMT -6
They also want you to teach fundamentals to ultimately allow them to scheme more and fundie less
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Post by dsqa on Mar 4, 2013 8:06:00 GMT -6
Just my take...NFL schemes have significant parity and soundness... so for them it comes down to mismatched talent, speed and fundamentals at that level...I believe that translates to us when we face our biggest opponents each year in relatively event matched games, that our fundamentals should carry the day...
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Post by davishfc on Mar 4, 2013 8:50:56 GMT -6
Just my take...NFL schemes have significant parity and soundness... so for them it comes down to mismatched talent, speed and fundamentals at that level...I believe that translates to us when we face our biggest opponents each year in relatively event matched games, that our fundamentals should carry the day... I agree Coach Slack.
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Post by newt21 on Mar 4, 2013 9:37:48 GMT -6
I definitely think fundamentals, bottom line. That being said, in the days before hitting you've got to get your base stuff installed so you have a place to execute those fundamentals. It doesn't matter if you can block a semi if it's the wrong semi and you give up a tackle for loss.
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Post by cqmiller on Mar 4, 2013 9:49:57 GMT -6
FUNDAMENTALS... FUNDAMENTALS... FUNDAMENTALS...
Scheme means nothing if you can't execute your base run or base pass play. All scheme is built off of an assumption that the other team is going to have to "adjust" to handle your base play... if your kids can't block and tackle, no scheme in the world can save you.
Unfortunately, so many of the rules-changes coming out now in the game are placing such an emphasis on scheme because they are taking a lot of the 'contact' out of the game. When I played, if I threw my WR into a collision, it was my fault, not the DB's fault for crushing him like he is supposed to. It was important for me to throw with my proper footwork, timing, and location to not get my WR injured.
Alignment, Base Responsibility, and Technique are about 80% of what we do... the other 20% only matters if the first 80% is good.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 4, 2013 9:54:45 GMT -6
Scheme determines your fundamentals though. Not much use working on shoulder blocks if you are a zone team. Should you spend time on kick slides up front if you don't run drop back?
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Post by gatemouth on Mar 4, 2013 10:40:41 GMT -6
I've said this before...But I used to work for a man who was going to run a defense he called "4-5 cover 3" every single play of every game if he could, and he was gonna teach the heck out of fundamentals in that defense. Proper angles, reads, steps, all of that. His theory was that if he taught the heck out of that, even if we were out of alignment or not in a good defense vs. a particular formation, there's always a chance that a kid might accidentally do the right thing just because he had been taught his fundamentals. On the other hand, if you're scheme scheme scheme, it may not matter how perfectly you line up every play if you have no idea what to do when the ball is snapped. Three state titles and myriad district championships later, I think this guy might have a good point
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Post by davishfc on Mar 4, 2013 12:27:38 GMT -6
Scheme determines your fundamentals though. Not much use working on shoulder blocks if you are a zone team. Should you spend time on kick slides up front if you don't run drop back? Well played.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 4, 2013 12:56:55 GMT -6
To me, basic plays and formations are part of scheme.
Fundamentals are things like stance, body position, steps and hand placement. Blocking, tackling and running to the ball are fundamentals as are ball skills and read and react abilities.
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Post by sweep26 on Mar 4, 2013 14:05:47 GMT -6
The Basics for Offense are: 1. Know When...Snap Count 2. Know Who/Where...Scheme 3. Know How...Fundamentals
On Defense: 1. It all centers around knowing How...Fundamentals
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Post by coachweav88 on Mar 4, 2013 14:19:46 GMT -6
The Basics for Offense are: On Defense: 1. It all centers around knowing How...Fundamentals You still have to know your alignment, your assignment, and your key, which. are scheme related.
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Post by coachweav88 on Mar 4, 2013 14:31:55 GMT -6
Scheme determines your fundamentals though. Not much use working on shoulder blocks if you are a zone team. Should you spend time on kick slides up front if you don't run drop back? This is spot on. This is what separates the slappys from guys who know what they are doing. Anyone can watch espn and think " fundamentals are important". Guys who know what they are doing know what's important and what is not for executing their scheme. The thing about football is that it is a team game, so individual technique means little if it is not in sync with what the rest of the team is doing. IMO, it's useless spending an hour teaching individual tackling if you spend very little time teaching kids where they fit on run support.
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Post by coachkaseysmith on Mar 4, 2013 15:34:44 GMT -6
I've had some thoughts about this and Coach McElroy of Saddleback College said it awesome in a clinic I was just at. For some reason it stuck with me.
"As teachers, most of you guys use Whole-Part-Whole methods in the classroom. So use it on the field"
Show the kids the scheme, then rep the technique, then run the scheme. It sounded better when he explained it but I got the gist of it.
There has to be both, but once you teach the technique, you can correct it while teaching/installing scheme...I hope that makes sense
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Post by mariner42 on Mar 4, 2013 16:02:28 GMT -6
I don't know anyone who is going to say fundamentals are less important than scheme. Through their actions, good coaches will SHOW that fundamentals are more important than scheme, but I'll put dollars to pesos that you can't find someone who thinks scheme trumps fundamentals. It's the equivalent of going to a MADD convention and asking if anyone wants to get a beer afterwards. You're not going to get anyone to speak up.
I also don't know why it's a zero sum choice where you can't have one without the other. Sometimes you scheme to cover your poor fundamentals (Justin Smith could base tech for his life at the end of the season, so the Niners slanted him pretty much every play), sometimes your fundamentals cover your poor scheme (being a great reading defense can fix a whole lot of stupid DC calls), but it's not like they exist separate of one another.
If you're going to forsake one for the other, let it be scheme, but don't miss the forest for looking at the trees.
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Post by John Knight on Mar 4, 2013 16:56:37 GMT -6
I watch a lot of Mike McCarthy and the Packers and the one thing you always hear him bring up is Pad Level. The number one fundamental as far as he is concerned is Pad level!
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Post by s73 on Mar 4, 2013 17:33:51 GMT -6
Kudos to Coach Knight. Could not agree more.
What we specifically shoot for in our program is a small but sound playbook which allows fundamentals to be a priority.
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Post by davishfc on Mar 4, 2013 20:15:23 GMT -6
I've had some thoughts about this and Coach McElroy of Saddleback College said it awesome in a clinic I was just at. For some reason it stuck with me. "As teachers, most of you guys use Whole-Part-Whole methods in the classroom. So use it on the field" Show the kids the scheme, then rep the technique, then run the scheme. It sounded better when he explained it but I got the gist of it. There has to be both, but once you teach the technique, you can correct it while teaching/installing scheme...I hope that makes sense Whole-Part-Whole is an outstanding teaching approach. I believe in teaching players "how" after they know exactly "what" needs to be done. I have found that players have a difficult time understanding technique if they don't understand the context. So show the kids the scheme (Whole) to put the "how" in context. In other words, the kids will understand why a technique or fundamental is performed a certain way. This will help to reinforce their understanding of the specific techniques (Part) for the fundamental skill being taught. Now they know their assignment which explains to them why they have to perform their techniques a certain way. Then go back to the scheme (Whole) with the understanding of fundamental techniques (Part) to refine it together (Whole). Rep the $hit out of it until you get good at something. Then go out and "fight 'em until he11 freezes over, then fight 'em on the ice!"
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Post by RENO6 on Mar 5, 2013 22:12:39 GMT -6
You have to teach them the scheme before you can teach them fundamentals.
If in your first game of the year, your kids know how to get their head across, hand in armpit, back flat, feet firing, and block until echoe of whistle on a down block but they are blocking the wrong guy, you will not win. And one might say, "you won't win if they aren't sound fundamentally," which is true, but I would rather a kid get blocked then left all alone and smash my QB or RB 5-10 yards in the backfield.
Or maybe you kept your scheme simple to focus on fundamentals but the defense runs a defense that stops your scheme, do you think that will get you a win?
We teach scheme first, then through out the season we rep fundamentals. Fundamentals carry the most weight of importance but scheme has to be taught first.
You can learn how to fight like Anderson Silva but if you don't know how to get to the ring, what's the point?
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Post by cqmiller on Mar 5, 2013 22:32:34 GMT -6
I guess the way I look at the two... obviously the kids knowing who to block has to be the 1st step, but it is the part that can be taught ANYWHERE ELSE besides the football field. Classroom, film-room, TV on saturdays & sundays, and a million other places that a kid can learn the scheme. We focus a large majority of our practice time working on fundamental skills that apply to FOOTBALL. We try to give the kids tools that they can apply to any situation they may encounter on the field (fundamentals), as opposed to teaching them 8 different ways to block zone. As long as we get heads and hands in the correct location and get the legs driving, we should have a successful play
Scheme-wise, pass protection is not hard at all... really there are only 2: BOB & Slide. The scheme BOB is important because the 5 OL need to know who to block, but just because your LT knows he blocks the DE isn't going to help you out if he can't kick-slide and protect the QB with fundamentals. You can always adjust scheme midseason or mid-game if you have good fundamentals, but you can't adjust fundamentals anywhere near as much. Good footwork, head placement, leg drive, tackling, turning, twisting, and all the drills that you do in the offseason can be applied to ANY scheme.
"SMASH" is probably as universal a term in the football world as anything. Teaching the kids what smash is, while important, is not as important as HOW TO RUN IT.
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Post by mholst40 on Mar 6, 2013 10:45:10 GMT -6
Fundamentals first, scheme second.
You can't run a scheme without fundamentals.
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