moball
Junior Member
Posts: 254
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Post by moball on Feb 14, 2013 11:29:29 GMT -6
Let's tell the pot smoking hippies on college campuses they can't skateboard any more because it's dangerous and see if they think it's infringing on their rights. I say let'em bust their heads wide open. It's not my business. Same way it's not a government buearocrat's business if I let my 10 year old play pop warner.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 14, 2013 11:32:15 GMT -6
Let's tell the pot smoking hippies on college campuses they can't skateboard any more because it's dangerous and see if they think it's infringing on their rights. I say let'em bust their heads wide open. It's not my business. Same way it's not a government buearocrat's business if I let my 10 year old play pop warner. And...exactly which bureaucrat notified you that you can no longer do this again?
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moball
Junior Member
Posts: 254
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Post by moball on Feb 14, 2013 12:16:03 GMT -6
If you think people like our president and government officials "feeling the water" by speaking out publicly on the dangers of football and saying things like "I'd never allow my kids to play" isn't the beginning of a government shake down then you are naive to how politics work in this country. Don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself how these payoffs work to get polical action committees off the backs of industry.
I just had this same discussion the other day with a teacher that believed the government should step in to do something about the dangers of ALL sports in academic institutions. The day before the same teacher was saying that drugs should be legalised because if we want to fry our brains we should be allowed. I'm going to start a movement to ban the xgames because my 10 year old got hurt falling off his bike the other day.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 14, 2013 16:55:51 GMT -6
If you think people like our president and government officials "feeling the water" by speaking out publicly on the dangers of football and saying things like "I'd never allow my kids to play" isn't the beginning of a government shake down then you are naive to how politics work in this country. Don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself how these payoffs work to get polical action committees off the backs of industry. By all means, don't let accuracy interfere with your rant here. The president said he would have to think about it...which is exactly what Troy Aikman said. Now, Terry Bradshaw did say he would NOT allow his son to play if he had a son today. Soo..which branch of the government does the Blonde Bomber work for??
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Post by RENO6 on Feb 14, 2013 17:45:01 GMT -6
If big hits are taken out of football, we would all still post the same amount on this site.
I don't understand why everyone gets so riled up.
Football will not ever go away. It might change, which it already has a lot since its creation, but it will still be the greatest game there is!!
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Post by groundchuck on Feb 14, 2013 17:49:27 GMT -6
Phil Simms let his kids play, and would still I think he said. Terry Bradshaw in the halls of Congress would be interesting to say the very least.
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Post by jlenwood on Feb 15, 2013 10:16:22 GMT -6
It seems this thread has gotten pretty opininated concerning politics and a whole lot more. I want to ask this.....what kind of defenitive study or studies is out there that points to WHEN a concussion, or any other catastrophic injury occurs.
It has been my experience that we have seen the most concussions at practice, as well as the most acl injuries. I would think that what will be legislated at the state and High School level soon will be practice procedures as opposed to game procedures, IE: hitting rules at practice, hours per week or something along those lines. I think that the state coaches associations would be well served to get in front of this wave and take the intiative to start implementing some changes, with coaches input, before they are federaly mandated.
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moball
Junior Member
Posts: 254
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Post by moball on Feb 15, 2013 10:40:36 GMT -6
If you think people like our president and government officials "feeling the water" by speaking out publicly on the dangers of football and saying things like "I'd never allow my kids to play" isn't the beginning of a government shake down then you are naive to how politics work in this country. Don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself how these payoffs work to get polical action committees off the backs of industry. By all means, don't let accuracy interfere with your rant here. The president said he would have to think about it...which is exactly what Troy Aikman said. Now, Terry Bradshaw did say he would NOT allow his son to play if he had a son today. Soo..which branch of the government does the Blonde Bomber work for?? By all means, let's not let logic interfere with your response. How does Terry Bradshaw NOT being an elected official make him a credible opinion on the issue. In fact, him saying that he was more than willing to risk his health to earn a better living than he might have otherwise, but would not want his kids to do the same thing totally proves my point. So thank you for bringing him up. He knew what he was getting into, he made his decisions any way, got rich, parlayed it into several other careers, and has a great life. But he's acknowledging it's not for everybody. So am I. But I don't need anyone else who has the power to control my life (ie elected officials) telling me that we need to look into rather or not my children should have the opportunity to take the same risks and reap the same rewards that Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman did. What I'm saying now is that I want no government "fact finding" inquiries. If the AFCA wants to do it, awesome. I know Va Tech does a ton of helmet research. I love that. But I don't want congress putting a $10 tax on every helmet sold so that they can use 50 cents of it to fund research. AND THAT COULD HAPPEN!!!! In addition, my earlier point is that I don't think that the Terry Bradshaw's of the world should be able to make a business decision by choosing an unsafe profession because it pays more than what they could earn otherwise, then come back in a lawsuit and say they want even more money because it was unsafe. I believe in having the freedom to make your own decisions, and the responsibility to suffer the consequences. That's it.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Feb 15, 2013 10:54:11 GMT -6
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Post by silkyice on Feb 15, 2013 10:55:03 GMT -6
With all this talk of I wouldn't let my son play by celebrities, is there one (or a bunch) who ACTUALLY DIDN'T let thier son play? Real easy to just say that.
That is just like me saying that I am not going to let my daughter go on a date until she is 21. Easy to say, but yeah right.
My point is that Joe Montana's and Will Smith's and Ray Lewis' sons play. But if they didn't have one, it wouldn't shock me in the least to hear them off the cuff to a reporter say "If I had a son, I wouldn't let him play."
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Post by casec11 on Feb 15, 2013 11:49:35 GMT -6
wow... I read this whole thread ...now I think I have a concussion!
I was hoping to read coach Slacks original post,too late I guess. Was it quoted in its entirety?
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 15, 2013 13:43:08 GMT -6
By all means, don't let accuracy interfere with your rant here. The president said he would have to think about it...which is exactly what Troy Aikman said. Now, Terry Bradshaw did say he would NOT allow his son to play if he had a son today. Soo..which branch of the government does the Blonde Bomber work for?? By all means, let's not let logic interfere with your response. How does Terry Bradshaw NOT being an elected official make him a credible opinion on the issue. You are missing the point. The point I was introducing was that you seem to be just making up quotes, and attributing them to people (such as the President) In fact, him saying that he was more than willing to risk his health to earn a better living than he might have otherwise, but would not want his kids to do the same thing totally proves my point. So thank you for bringing him up. He knew what he was getting into, I think the small inaccuracy here is that they DIDN'T know what they were getting into. Nobody really did. THAT is the issue at hand. Back then--the major worry was "broken neck" Now, we are starting to see that just the regular ordinary contact incurred...not even concussions, but just regular ordinary football contact may have a great deal more risk than we thought. Or maybe it doesn't. Why is wanting to know this information so bad. he made his decisions any way, got rich, parlayed it into several other careers, and has a great life. But he's acknowledging it's not for everybody. So am I. But I don't need anyone else who has the power to control my life (ie elected officials) telling me that we need to look into rather or not my children should have the opportunity to take the same risks and reap the same rewards that Terry Bradshaw and Troy Aikman did. If people are playing this sport for monetary rewards....THAT is a problem in and of itself. What I'm saying now is that I want no government "fact finding" inquiries. If the AFCA wants to do it, awesome. I know Va Tech does a ton of helmet research. I love that. But I don't want congress putting a $10 tax on every helmet sold so that they can use 50 cents of it to fund research. AND THAT COULD HAPPEN!!!! I agree if the situation is such that they use the fear as a revenue issue..(like in your example, where $9.50 is appropriated to other issues) that is bad policy. BUT the idea is not horrible, just the implementation. Again, why WOULDN'T ANYONE want to see the research. In addition, my earlier point is that I don't think that the Terry Bradshaw's of the world should be able to make a business decision by choosing an unsafe profession because it pays more than what they could earn otherwise, then come back in a lawsuit and say they want even more money because it was unsafe. I believe in having the freedom to make your own decisions, and the responsibility to suffer the consequences. That's it. Again, without seeing the actual facts of the case, and to see WHAT they are actually looking into... I can't really comment. I do agree his comments saying "i would do it all again" would seem hypocritical if he were involved in a lawsuit. But.. just like the President not saying "I wouldn't let my son play"... Terry Bradshaw isn't involved in a lawsuit. It just BAFFLES me that the seriousness of this situation is met by coaches whose mindset is more "you will NEVER TAKE MY GUNS!!!!" rather than "hey there might be more to this than I thought...let me see whats going on"
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moball
Junior Member
Posts: 254
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Post by moball on Feb 15, 2013 21:55:43 GMT -6
Why do people keep suggesting that coaches that are tired of the sky is falling attitude don't want any research? I clearly stated above that I loved that Virginia Tech has been researching better helmets. What I don't want is the hysteria explained in the article the "The Dude Abides" posted above. Conveniently, no one wanted to respond to that. THAT'S WHAT I'M FED UP WITH!!!!! Millions of kids have played this great game and there are people that want to take it away from my children because they think I'm a bad parent for allowing my boys to play a game that relies on size, strength,speed, toughness, commitment, and yes, the ability to jump back up after you've had the snot bubbles knocked out of you. Plain and simple, if that article doesn't outrage you then how do you coach this game with good conscience? Does anyone that has commented on this thread want pop warner football outlawed? If so please speak up. And I find these "don't take my guns away" comments to be slightly offensive in addition to being disappointing. Since when does wanting the government (not everyone, just the government) to stay off my local pop warner field make me some kind of alarmist redneck. And I don't own a gun, but my neighbors do and I'm ok with that. If a manufacturer comes out with a better helmet, guess what. I'm going to buy it. And so will alot of other coaches. And the company that produces those helmets will deservedly make millions of dollars and some people won't like that in spite of the fact that they may have saved lives. You may want a government that decides for you what you should do and what you shouldn't, but I don't.
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Post by fantom on Feb 16, 2013 10:17:37 GMT -6
It just BAFFLES me that the seriousness of this situation is met by coaches whose mindset is more "you will NEVER TAKE MY GUNS!!!!" rather than "hey there might be more to this than I thought...let me see whats going on" What bothers me is that the seriousness of the situation is very much in doubt. Many in the media and not some politicians have taken the health issues of men who have played professional football and have made it look as though everyone who plays the game at any level are subject to the same level of risk. I'm in favor research but many people are acting as though the research has been done and has proven definitively that youth, HS, and college football create an undue risk to the brains of the participants. That simply isn''t true. The media sensationalize things. That's what they do. The McDonalds coffee case is a great example. The media oversimplified and sensationalized that situation to the point that a suit that had merit has become, in the common perception, an example of stupidity in the court system. Facts don't matter. Perception is reality. To a growing number of people, since Junior Seau had CTE then everybody who signs up to play freshman football is LIKELY to end up with dementia at the age of 40. We've been playing football for over a hundred years so it seems that somebody would have noticed that by now but never mind. It must be true. As long as that the only fallout is that it gives Mom more ammo to keep Junior for signing up for football, fine. When we start seeing legislation being proposed that bans youth football that's a real threat.
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Post by brophy on Feb 16, 2013 10:29:16 GMT -6
I'm in favor research but many people are acting as though the research has been done and has proven definitively that youth, HS, and college football create an undue risk to the brains of the participants. That simply isn''t true. what studies are you referring to? There were several links and videos included in the first 4 pages that either we're ignoring or I don't know what because the issue is brain trauma. period. Not long-sustained 20 year careers of it, its simply the effects of CTE. There ARE knowns out there (and there is more to learn). Specifically, which study and assertion are you challenging? Again, the NFL gets the majority of attention because its a Billion dollar industry with a player advocacy. High School, youth, and college DO NOT have any governing body looking out for the interests of the players, save parents and coaches. So shouldn't we take an interest in learning what the issues are rather than taking a "what me worry" position without investigating anything? It would seem that what's out there is out there [there are PLENTY of different studies available..don't expect it to be delivered on a platter]. As COACHES, it would stand to reason that we'd want to be the most educated on what puts our kids at risk, whether it be dehydration, injury recovery, heat stroke, or muscle soreness. If parents don't get the sense that coaches will look out for the best interests of their players, then why should they back us? The media sensationalize things. For the Huey board, I wonder if the whole media talk be removed from this discussion because the hysteria involved with it (both sides) doesn't serve anyone. Its just emotion and rhetoric....just swinging at air. So what is the point? The "aw, I'm sick of hearing about the news" "the {censored} media is..." "you know the bias is..." - eh, well stop tuning in, then. The TV isn't the only place you educate yourself, is it? Regarding the "legislation" issue....politics gonna politics but here is the proponent of limiting contact in youth ball
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Post by jlenwood on Feb 16, 2013 12:05:26 GMT -6
I have spent the better part of this week searching and reading almost every college medical research report I can find as well as some industry reports and research, and the one thing I can not fiind is a detailed report that tells me the following as it pertains to HS football:
1) When are most concussions (as well as other catastrophic injuries) occuring? For example, are most HS concussions happening in practice or game situations.
2)At what age level are they occurring? Pop Warner / JR High / Freshman / JV / Varsity?
3)Age of equipment being used at the time of injury? Was it a 8 year old helmet that passed the NOCASE test, but doesn't have the latest design improvements?
It seems to me that this industry (High School football) needs to know and document the above questions, so then we can begin to cut away the "he got a concussion playing football" and get down to "he recevied a concussion at practice wearing an outdated/NOCASE passed helmet the 2nd week of hitting". Let us work from a baseline of facts that may indicate it is more of a poor practice, bad equipment, age level issue as opposed to the general view that all players (from pop warner to NFL) are subject to the same risk.
Once these variables are put together, then we can begin to assess what part of the overall game, from practice to equipment to games, that we need to address first in order to make the most impact.
This is serious stuff.
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Post by fantom on Feb 16, 2013 12:43:37 GMT -6
Brophy,
The Hoke piece brings nothing to the discussion.
I watched the others to see if they provided any more information than what I'd seen. They didn't. I've seen these and others before. Here's what I saw:
1. Concussions need to be taken more seriously than they have been in the past. OK, is there anybody who doesn't know that? When I heard the kid ask what he should do after he was diagnosed with his 6th concussion, before Dr. Cantu answered my first thought was, "Quit playing football". I think everybody understand how serious concussions are.
2. Sub-concussive hits: Dr. Cantu echoed what others that I've heard have said- we don't know. Studies SUGGEST that these hits MAY lead to CTE but they don't know that and don't know what long-term effects such hits may cause. Dr, Cantu also said what I've said all along- as long as we're looking at brains and not behavior this research will take decades.
As for taking the media and politicians out of the discussion, how? What I think of the media and politicians doesn't matter (And for the record I think that these people mean well). If too many people refuse to let their kids play, if laws are passed banning youth football, if school boards worried about liability issues drop the sport the game dies. If research proves that it should, fine. My experience doe not tell me that it does and there's no research that's even close to saying that it does. Until such time that it does I'll keep defending the game.
C'mon, Broph, you've gotta admit that that's not bad writing for a Neanderthal.
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Post by coachjm on Feb 16, 2013 12:54:44 GMT -6
I really appreciate this discussion..... I really appreciate Brophy input to this discussion and video/links that are attached. With an 8 and 5 year old sons and being a HS Head Football Coach this is issue is both personal and an opportunity for educational growth. I want to learn and grow more as a Coach and this discussion is helping that. My approach as a coach has changed drastically due to the concern of concussions through the last 5 years. In turn we hit much less in practice, I'm highly concerned about the equipment we are placing our kids in, and I have completely changed our approach to both blocking and tackling. Our methods I believe have always been sound and time tested but now when looking for methodology I look for methods that are the least likely to create trauma/contact to the head especially helmet to helmet collisions. We will continue to evolve based on improving the safety for our players.
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Post by brophy on Feb 16, 2013 13:13:35 GMT -6
Fantom
The Hoke piece fully substantiates humor in this thread. Dr. Cantu was only offered as a reply to moball's insistence for a reply to legislation, not as substance to CTE there are links on page 2 & 3 on the studies of brain injury.
What quantifies as "defend the game", though? For the record, I havent declared a position one way or the other yet.
How did we deal with players being disoriented 10 years ago? 5 years ago? How do you think we'll deal with it in another 5 years? Differently? If so, it'd be a good idea to get on board now.
I remember getting the piss knocked out of me in HS and college plenty. When it happened 1) I had no idea what was happening (and I wasnt about to ask) and 2) when I did I wasnt gonna take myself and upset my coach. That doesnt mean that was smart, just that things are different and times are changing
We can play this game smarter
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Post by Coach.A on Feb 16, 2013 14:34:39 GMT -6
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Post by airman on Feb 16, 2013 14:40:01 GMT -6
football in an individual sport. It is 11 individuals each giving their maximum effort. what motives player #1 might not work with player #7 and so on. motivating players is still an individual thing.
Sorry, but I can't let this slide. You're crawfishing here. No one suggested anything about "motivation" philosophy here. Your original comment had to do with hyperventilating at the mere suggestion of working together, to which you invoke a Godwin-esque knee jerk about socialism. Heaven forbid our players care about each other and sacrifice. "Football is an individual sport" - that is the FIRST time I've ever heard that. Your comment: many coaches really have communist thinking here. Sacrifice for the common good comes right out of Marxism. Deny the individual comes right out of stalin. Come in from the ledge, Coach McCarthy. We teach our players about banding together in group efficacy and we're painting them red? Whoo, boy! For the record, Marx and Stalin actually saw things quite a bit differently (not the same). What were you saying about thinking critically? this is why do as I say or else coaches are not very successful in the long run. players see through the BS and the Fear. I believe kids need to be thinkers. they need to understand the how and why.
Coaches should be teaching kids critical thinking skills. They should teach their kids to ask questions. To have coaches explain the how and why instead of the do or die mentality most coaches have. really no idea why you're conflating coercive motivation with reinforcing TEAMWORK. No one has suggest anything of the sort. So, if you reinforce how effort and concepts tie together, you're not teaching kids how to think for themselves? Brophy, how did we get to I hate Jesus? I am really curious on this one? You think Coach Slack derives his coaching philosophy from the Red book of Mao Tse-Tung or the Book of John? Your original post derided everything that Slack's New Testament is founded on
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Post by airman on Feb 16, 2013 14:40:24 GMT -6
football in an individual sport. It is 11 individuals each giving their maximum effort. what motives player #1 might not work with player #7 and so on. motivating players is still an individual thing.
Sorry, but I can't let this slide. You're crawfishing here. No one suggested anything about "motivation" philosophy here. Your original comment had to do with hyperventilating at the mere suggestion of working together, to which you invoke a Godwin-esque knee jerk about socialism. Heaven forbid our players care about each other and sacrifice. "Football is an individual sport" - that is the FIRST time I've ever heard that. Your comment: many coaches really have communist thinking here. Sacrifice for the common good comes right out of Marxism. Deny the individual comes right out of stalin. Come in from the ledge, Coach McCarthy. We teach our players about banding together in group efficacy and we're painting them red? Whoo, boy! For the record, Marx and Stalin actually saw things quite a bit differently (not the same). What were you saying about thinking critically? this is why do as I say or else coaches are not very successful in the long run. players see through the BS and the Fear. I believe kids need to be thinkers. they need to understand the how and why.
Coaches should be teaching kids critical thinking skills. They should teach their kids to ask questions. To have coaches explain the how and why instead of the do or die mentality most coaches have. really no idea why you're conflating coercive motivation with reinforcing TEAMWORK. No one has suggest anything of the sort. So, if you reinforce how effort and concepts tie together, you're not teaching kids how to think for themselves? Brophy, how did we get to I hate Jesus? I am really curious on this one? You think Coach Slack derives his coaching philosophy from the Red book of Mao Tse-Tung or the Book of John? Your original post derided everything that Slack's New Testament is founded on
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Post by airman on Feb 16, 2013 14:41:29 GMT -6
Sorry, but I can't let this slide. You're crawfishing here. No one suggested anything about "motivation" philosophy here. Your original comment had to do with hyperventilating at the mere suggestion of working together, to which you invoke a Godwin-esque knee jerk about socialism. Heaven forbid our players care about each other and sacrifice. "Football is an individual sport" - that is the FIRST time I've ever heard that. Your comment: Come in from the ledge, Coach McCarthy. We teach our players about banding together in group efficacy and we're painting them red? Whoo, boy! For the record, Marx and Stalin actually saw things quite a bit differently (not the same). What were you saying about thinking critically? really no idea why you're conflating coercive motivation with reinforcing TEAMWORK. No one has suggest anything of the sort. So, if you reinforce how effort and concepts tie together, you're not teaching kids how to think for themselves? You think Coach Slack derives his coaching philosophy from the Red book of Mao Tse-Tung or the Book of John? Your original post derided everything that Slack's New Testament is founded on
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Post by airman on Feb 16, 2013 14:45:33 GMT -6
Brophy, once again where did I say I hated Jesus? I am still looking for that one. I watched the video. I realize he sees himself as a molder of young boys into men. I am sure he is a nice guy as well. However, one can teach ethics without the religious dogma.
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moball
Junior Member
Posts: 254
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Post by moball on Feb 16, 2013 15:02:32 GMT -6
My "insistence for a reply to legislation" was related to the many "you'll never take my guns" metaphors people were using because I said I didn't want some pencil necked geek that never got a varsity letter in anything proposing legislation to eliminate the game because he knows better than I do what's best for my kids. However, it seems that what I've actually written is not important. What's improtant is that I must be an uneducated redneck because I don't want others dictating what risks my family and I take. I am not uneducated. I am a teacher with a Master's degree. I'm not ignorant to the risks of the game. I would venture to say I am one of the few people on this site that has had a blood relative die on the field due to a neck injury. I get it, that one concussion is more than we should ever just accept. But they're going to happen. One fatality automobile accident is more than we should just accept also. But do you want to walk to work every day? I don't! And I don't want to turn the game into flag football either. Look at how the automobile industry has changed. Cars are safer than ever. Instead of changing the game that we coach and play, why can't we work with manufacturers to get safer helmets. There are millions of dollars to be made and there are people trying to do it (http://www.manufacturing.net/news/2012/09/race-helmet-designer-turns-eye-to-football-safety). What problem is this Dr. Cantu solving by sitting on a stage and telling people that football and hockey are risky? He is wasting his time and the time of all those people sitting in the audience marveling at his genuis all the while hoping they can someday be smart enough to have people sit around wringing their hands over their drivel. People sometimes get hurt playing football. No Crap! If you love football and want to see football as it is, then you just learned as much from me as you have any academic study. If you didn't click on the link I included above, do so. The guy in this story is a doer. He is attempting to solve a problem. This Dr. Cantu is nothing more than a captain obvious with an MD. Ahhhh but he's an intellectual and a member of the academic intelligencia and the cocktail party circuit and if you don't wring your hands along with him you risk being branded as an ignorant hick. Bill Simpson (the guy in the article) is a problem solver, and the kind of person I want to listen to and affiliate myself with. As coaches we should be striving to make THIS game safer. What have we even accomplished with this thread. WE ALL KNOW FOOTBALL CAN BE DANGEROUS TO YOU HEALTH! No news here. Let's get a better helmet. Let's get a better helmet. Let's get a better helmet. Let's get a better helmet.
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Post by Coach.A on Feb 16, 2013 15:11:50 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Feb 16, 2013 15:37:52 GMT -6
Brophy, once again where did I say I hated Jesus? it was the same stretch as your equation of " sacrificing of your personal glory for the greater good of the group" as tantamount to preaching the Communist ethos.
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Post by dsqa on Feb 17, 2013 8:46:24 GMT -6
Casec11
A portion of the OP piece is quoted on page 1 of the thread toward bottom...
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Post by airman on Feb 17, 2013 20:24:31 GMT -6
Brophy, once again where did I say I hated Jesus? it was the same stretch as your equation of " sacrificing of your personal glory for the greater good of the group" as tantamount to preaching the Communist ethos.
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Post by airman on Feb 17, 2013 20:25:11 GMT -6
but sacrificing for the common good is part of the communist ethos. Each to his own ability.
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