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Post by cqmiller on Jan 10, 2013 9:53:18 GMT -6
Hopefully this doesn't turn into a big discussion that will get deleted, but I just need to blow off some steam about something that is really getting frustrating to me...
EVERY SINGLE FOOTBALL PLAYER I KNOW UNDERSTANDS THAT THERE IS A RISK OF BOTH SHORT-TERM AND LONG-TERM DAMAGE TO THEIR BODY BY PLAYING THE SPORT...
EVERY SINGLE BASKETBALL PLAYER I KNOW UNDERSTANDS THAT THERE IS A RISK OF BOTH SHORT-TERM AND LONG-TERM DAMAGE TO THEIR BODY BY PLAYING THE SPORT...
EVERY SINGLE BASEBALL PLAYER I KNOW UNDERSTANDS THAT THERE IS A RISK OF BOTH SHORT-TERM AND LONG-TERM DAMAGE TO THEIR BODY BY PLAYING THE SPORT...
I agree that there should be precautions taken to try and make the game as safe as possible, but at some point, the precautions will change the fundamental makeup of what makes the sport! Any of my kids lower their head and try to take someone out... they better hope the officials get to them before I do, because it will not be pretty... that is not what we do! But, when I can watch any football game the last 2-3 years and see players ACTIVELY trying to avoid headhunting, hitting in the helmet, etc... and due to circumstances like runner trying to get down because he sees the hit coming, getting bumped by another player just before the hit comes, or even just a good old-fashioned GREAT FREAKING HIT:
is having a HUGE impact on what the sport actually is. I am worried that we are having such a huge over-reaction to the injury thing right now, that football may quickly "regulate" itself out of existence. I really believe that it is the only sport left where hard-work, dedication, teamwork, and sacrifice for something bigger than yourself still exists. Everything else has become so self-centered and individual-driven that I don't even watch anymore. I used to watch basketball and baseball when I was younger, but have not watched an entire game (above the HS level) in over 10 years. NFL games I probably watch only about 2-3 a year because I can't stand seeing the "free" 15 yards and 1st downs being given out about 10-15 times a game.
I played QB and I think that many of the QB protection rules, the 5-yard bump rule, and so many others are a joke. Of course QB's today are going to break EVERY SINGLE PASSING RECORD set by Marino, Elway, Unitas, and the great players from the past. Imagine if Marino was throwing to WR's that couldn't be jammed after 5 yards... he could have thrown for 10,000 in a season (they sucked on the ground, so he would have had to).
Okay... Rant over... just need to get some frustrations out before I go teach Chemistry to a bunch of kids who aren't going to try to do it because it is "too hard", "not fun", and "requires work"
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Post by cqmiller on Jan 10, 2013 10:25:49 GMT -6
Exactly why I don't like the NFL. I think QB's are responsible for not hanging their receivers out to dry...aka...defenseless receivers...sigh... At least once a game I start yelling at the TV saying the 15 yarder should be on the QB for throwing that stupid pass... I played QB, don't throw your guys into headaches!!! |
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Post by fantom on Jan 10, 2013 10:51:00 GMT -6
I have no problem with stopping players from leading with the head and targeting the head. Hell, if they'd just called the spearing rule that was already on the books, and had been for decades, they wouldn't be going to court. What drives me crazy is how far overboard they've gone. When a pass rusher pulls up but gets flagged because his hand brushes the QB's head; when a runner ducks into a head shot; when a DB executes a perfect shoulder tackle but gets flagged because his earhole brushes the receiver's earhole; something's wrong.
Something else that drives me crazy is when you hear NFL players and apologists complain that they have to learn how to tackle differently. Bullchit! Nobody taught them in HS and college to leave their feet, launch themselves, and tackle with the crown of their heads.
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Post by wingt74 on Jan 10, 2013 10:54:59 GMT -6
Exactly why I don't like the NFL. I think QB's are responsible for not hanging their receivers out to dry...aka...defenseless receivers...sigh... to me, the key is here somewhere. In the play cq posted...the only way to breakup that pass for that defender is to do exactly what he did. If the defender pulled up and just used his hands to try and knock the ball away, the receiver would have caught it, and maybe even scored. the reason why I think what dcohio says is key...is because at some point, certain situations are going to need rules to impact the offense. such as, receivers are not allowed to catch a pass with their hands above their head, or leave their feet to catch a pass...otherwise at some point, the defense won't be able to play defense. And for running backs. This needs to be a penalty At some point, we'll be removing contact from practices. Players will not be allowed to lower their head below a 45 degree angle at anytime, and the game will look like a youth football game with lots of grabbing. |
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Post by brophy on Jan 10, 2013 11:15:46 GMT -6
its easy for any of us to get on a soapbox and let loose the frustration we all feel (because this isn't the game we played or the reason we got into coaching to a large degree); there is a lot of personal emotion involved with this issue. The other thing is there are SEVERAL different avenues to discuss this issue (protecting players, minimizing hits, enforcing fundamentals, diminishing physical aggression, legal ramifications, etc) I know the low-hanging fruit is attacking the KNOCKOUT shots, but from where I sit, by in large this comes at the expense of ignoring the more serious problem of the repeated smaller hits (experienced by linemen). How much contact are we still doing during the week of practice? Are there programs out there still doing full pad bring-em-to-the-ground banging during the week? The challenge is this issue isn't going away..... Junior Seau's degenerative brain condition...."The brain was independently evaluated by multiple experts, in a blind fashion," said Dr. Russell Lonser, who oversaw the study. "We had the opportunity to get multiple experts involved in a way they wouldn't be able to directly identify his tissue even if they knew he was one of the individuals studied."
The NIH, based in Bethesda, Md., conducted a study of three unidentified brains, one of which was Seau's. It said the findings on Seau were similar to autopsies of people "with exposure to repetitive head injuries." |
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doc23
Freshmen Member
Posts: 88
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Post by doc23 on Jan 10, 2013 11:16:10 GMT -6
Quote: Something else that drives me crazy is when you hear NFL players and apologists complain that they have to learn how to tackle differently. Bullchit! Nobody taught them in HS and college to leave their feet, launch themselves, and tackle with the crown of their heads. [/quote]
This is exactly the problem...at least in my area, coaches are getting away from the teaching of fundamentals for contact. Chest on chest, running your feet, wrapping up etc...way too much diving and arm tackling leads to poor position, (leading with head)....
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Post by brophy on Jan 10, 2013 11:24:44 GMT -6
i've mentioned it elsewhere, but you also run into the issue of
1. repeated exposure through media of the traumatizing physical injuries in NCAA/NFL.
2. hyperventilating mothers / players who do not understand pain/injury react to any discomfort by going to their doctor
3. "their doctor" = ER physician (not an orthopedist) who will automatically prescribe the "rest for 2 weeks" remedy to a bruise.
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Post by wingt74 on Jan 10, 2013 11:24:59 GMT -6
Changes in player safety for football at ALL levels is 90% PR and 10% safety.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 10, 2013 11:40:16 GMT -6
Our kids are farting to understand that they should go see the trainer who will send them to the ortho if needed.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 10, 2013 12:17:38 GMT -6
EVERY SINGLE FOOTBALL PLAYER I KNOW UNDERSTANDS THAT THERE IS A RISK OF BOTH SHORT-TERM AND LONG-TERM DAMAGE TO THEIR BODY BY PLAYING THE SPORT... Unfortunately, I would say that while this statement is true as it is written, the current trend seems to be showing that the DEGREE of Damage is not understood. |
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Post by mahonz on Jan 10, 2013 12:44:41 GMT -6
A proper fitting helmet…a hard cup chin strap…a molded mouth piece. None of which Seau etal wore.
When is THAT discussion going to hit the airwaves?
The fix will never trickle from the top ( NFL) down without mandates on equipment…it probably has to trickle from the bottom ( youth) up where equipment mandates already exist.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jan 10, 2013 14:06:35 GMT -6
I'm very worried about the future of our sport. If this lawsuit gets ugly, getting kids out for football will be more challenging than ever.
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Post by dbcoach19 on Jan 10, 2013 19:51:11 GMT -6
Changes in player safety for football at ALL levels is 90% PR and 10% safety. 100% correct. If someone invented a helmet tomorrow that prevented all concussions, in a few years you'd be hearing "this used to be a mans game, where's all the hitting, this is a warriors game, blah blah blah" and rules would be switched to encourage more hitting. It's a shame what happens, but it does worry me some and I really hope there is a huge breakthrough with equipment that really can cut down the amount of head injuries occurring. The thing I always rant about though is at the NFL level. There is a huge physical risk of playing in the NFL, I understand that. But there is also a huge physical risk in being a miner, ditch digger, construction worker, etc. Go see anyone who did manual labor most of their life, see how there knees and backs are, then go compare their salary to a professional athlete. This isn't to take anything away from what happens to some players, but the fact is a lot of physical jobs have huge risks involved. |
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Post by mariner42 on Jan 10, 2013 20:18:58 GMT -6
Our kids are farting to understand Auto correct is so hilarious some times... I really worry about how football is starting to legislate safety on the playing field, rather than the practice field. Want a safer game? ENFORCE SAFE PRACTICES. Put an independent 'compliance officer' at every NFL practice who will consult with the coaching staff regarding time spent teaching safe collision technique (tackling, blocking, etc) and potentially fine/penalize/discourage teams who don't spend time making sure their players aren't doing unsafe things. We all chirp about practicing like you play, I think an extension of that would go a long way to creating a safer playing environment without fundamentally altering the game. Also: Practice squad gets increased to 70. More fresh bodies = more distributed wear and tear on bodies. Also, also: Mid season break! 1/2 way through the season, everyone has a bye (maybe 2) to heal up. |
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Post by contrariancoach on Jan 10, 2013 20:40:49 GMT -6
Put an independent 'compliance officer' at every NFL practice who will consult with the coaching staff regarding time spent teaching safe collision technique (tackling, blocking, etc) and potentially fine/penalize/discourage teams who don't spend time making sure their players aren't doing unsafe things. That sounds too much like Nazi Germany IMHO. |
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Post by pirates2012 on Jan 10, 2013 21:46:25 GMT -6
At least once a game I start yelling at the TV saying the 15 yarder should be on the QB for throwing that stupid pass... I played QB, don't throw your guys into headaches!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! My son was a QB and FS, he says exactly the same thing. I understand it's more entertainment than football but still. "football may quickly "regulate" itself out of existence." I agree 100%. I think it was Chris Carter? Keyshawn Johnson? One of the receivers on Monday Night Football said the same thing. Said that there were a lot of , mediocre QB's in the NFL and they were leading receivers into areas that were going to get them hurt. And it was the QB's fault. |
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Post by coachmoore42 on Jan 10, 2013 23:00:23 GMT -6
We have to get past the softening of the game concerns and look at what is happening. People are dying, via suicide, but leaving the Earth nonetheless.
Yes, we all love the game or we wouldn't put the time and effort into it that we do. That said, something has to be done, even if it might negatively affect the game. I believe that football can survive with changes, but only if we as coaches are the ones to change. Fighting the reality by blaming bad QBs for head shots is what is ultimately going to undo our game, if it continues. Requiring safe tackling practices from all players on a daily basis, as well as being smarter about how much contact is allowed in practice is the only way the game will continue to be played in a way that is at all similar to the way it was intended to be played.
Coaches are no more to blame than anyone else involved with the game, but we are the ones who have the power to correct the issues that are threatening to undo our favorite sport.
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Post by waltkus72 on Jan 10, 2013 23:05:29 GMT -6
Coach Paterno was quoted saying the problems are derived from the helmets themselves. He said back in the day of rubber helmets people weren't leading with their heads. That reminds me of the whole rugby conversation and how they don't have a ton of crown lead hits because of the lack of artificial padding.
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Post by maximum on Jan 11, 2013 2:44:28 GMT -6
That sounds too much like Nazi Germany IMHO. What exactly do you think happened in Nazi Germany? Honestly I don't think concussions are that big of a deal until you get to where guys are getting 7,8,9+ in a career. I mean obviously its different with guys like Jahvid Best where they suffer a couple catastrophic ones but thats the risk in everything. I don't know, I think with the movement in the league to more passing and spread attacks combined with more timeshares in the backfield the concussion issue will at least somewhat resolve itself. |
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Post by coachbuck on Jan 11, 2013 2:45:33 GMT -6
Changes in player safety for football at ALL levels is 90% PR and 10% safety. 100% correct. If someone invented a helmet tomorrow that prevented all concussions, in a few years you'd be hearing "this used to be a mans game, where's all the hitting, this is a warriors game, blah blah blah" and rules would be switched to encourage more hitting. It's a shame what happens, but it does worry me some and I really hope there is a huge breakthrough with equipment that really can cut down the amount of head injuries occurring. The thing I always rant about though is at the NFL level. There is a huge physical risk of playing in the NFL, I understand that. But there is also a huge physical risk in being a miner, ditch digger, construction worker, etc. Go see anyone who did manual labor most of their life, see how there knees and backs are, then go compare their salary to a professional athlete. This isn't to take anything away from what happens to some players, but the fact is a lot of physical jobs have huge risks involved. I think you are spot on. If you do any manual labor in your career field you are going to have issues, whether its your back, shoulders or legs. Here is the real issue I believe. The nfl guys get paid well for playing the game. They know the risk reward, (more so now) but that is with almost any job. Miners wear more protective gear now then they did 50 years ago, UPS drivers wear back belts and have Dolly's to assist them, with knowledge everything improves. The danger is at the H.S. level. If mom and dad wont let there kids play football because of the danger we wont have a game in the future. That's where we as coaches need to really step up the game and know the dangers and have good trainers. The more knowledge you have the better and safer your kids are. |
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Post by calkayne on Jan 11, 2013 4:44:10 GMT -6
fantom has already pointed to a big issue in this. The tools to enforce player safety are already there, The rules are what they are, but they cannot be 100% enforced, its not humanly possible.
However, rules are not a preventative measure the discipline dealt is reactive to what has already occured. In that sense the prevention must happen before the action. That, imho, occurs at the lower levels of ball. There are plenty of tackling, blocking camps going on, but are parallel to those Concussion Awareness (pick any other name for "Occupational Health and Safety") camps/course being held for both players and coaches?
You see, we cant expect a testosterone laden dude to really understand the meaning of the term consequence in the next few decades, that concept is meaningless to him. It must be otherwise the species would never have advanced the way it has. Otherwise we would be still debating about the use of fire and its dangers.
At the college level we have players taking the padding out of the pads "to make them quicker" at the pros they dont play with a mouthguard under the principle of "I can replace my teetch later", helmets arent fitted or fastened.
With the pressure coming from the rising profile of Soccer in the states, this game will go on a serious roller coaster ride for some time. But in the long run it will only get better.
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Post by calkayne on Jan 11, 2013 7:30:11 GMT -6
...I think the cutting and the diving shoulder tackles at the knees is much more dangerous than the once in a while big time hits. If I could answer this statement with a question, how often do the players practice compared to playing a game? Which leads into the question, how much concussive force is the brain subjected to in practice? This is an underated, overlooked, swept under the carpet factor which, imho, skews the analytical data gathered. After all a concussive force does not need to hit the head and a concussive force does not need to appear to be a big hit. The constant rat-a-tat-tat of facemasks and helmets making contact in any drill is an indicator of how much contact a player receives at any point in time. Like waves on a coastline cause erosion... |
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Post by calkayne on Jan 11, 2013 12:33:58 GMT -6
Because he is a celebrity there is money to be made off of his tragic story. Of the darker side you dont hear too much since thats not tastefull for the pop culture we live in. I think it is over looked and swept under the rug. But in the NFL they only have 10 full contact days right? Now this is just my personal opinion and not based on a professional evidence that can back me up. I personally believe that most damage is done before the players get to the pros. Especially for those players that have been hitting since they where knee high to a grasshopper, thats a lot of "little" hits for many years. Hence my previous statement comparing the damage to erosion. Lots of little things over a few years. Now a player in the pros when is the average age they start playing, how many camps has he been to, how much does he play outside of organised ball, what other activities does he do to put himself at risk, how many games has he played the list goes on. Looking at many of the cases of depression and addiction and other mental conditions, the symptoms occur during the career and only become worse with old age. |
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 11, 2013 12:36:02 GMT -6
I agree with that calkayne. I think it is over looked and swept under the rug. But in the NFL they only have 10 full contact days right? I thought I read that somewhere. I'm just saying: Year Number of Suicide Deaths Population 1993 31,102 259,918,595 12.0 1994 31,142 263,125,826 11.8 1995 31,284 266,278,403 11.8 1996 30,903 269,394,291 11.5 1997 30,535 272,646,932 11.2 1998 30,575 275,854,116 11.1 1999 29,199 279,040,181 10.5 2000 29,350 281,421,906 10.4 2001 30,622 285,081,556 10.7 2002 31,655 287,803,914 11.0 2003 31,484 290,326,418 10.8 2004 32,439 293,045,739 11.1 2005 32,637 295,753,151 11.0 2006 33,300 298,593,212 11.2 2007 34,598 301,579,895 11.5 2008 36,035 304,374,846 11.8 2009 36,909 307,006,550 12.0 2010 38,364 308,745,538 12.4 This is what makes me angry about the media - Junior Seau, because of brain trama, because he was who he was ...he's 1 out of 38,000 = .000026316 = .0026% This is not cause for alarm. Exactly. |
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Post by brophy on Jan 11, 2013 14:13:52 GMT -6
This is what makes me angry about the media - Junior Seau, because of brain trama, because he was who he was ...he's 1 out of 38,000 = .000026316 = .0026% This is not cause for alarm. eh.....I could understand outrage over hyperpolied rhetoric saying "football killed Seau", but discounting brain trauma as NOT being a cause for his condition simply by the statistical category he happens to be in is looking at this from an emotionally embedded position (unwilling to just look at this soberly). You're also selectively ignoring the NFL retirees being 6 times more likely than the national average to commit suicide. This may or may not be linked directly to the head trauma thing, but ignoring or dismissing it doesn't hide its truth. If there is a marked increase in suicides from former military personnel (there is) should we not try to figure out why? Seau is a big name.....Barrett Robbins, Justin Strzelczyk, Terry Long , Dave Duerson, etc all dudes who's self-destructive (you could argue bi-polar) behavior lead to suicide. Its not like Seau is just some shot in the dark here There are so many positions and issues regarding player safety and football (easily a half dozen worthy of examination and discussion) that baby-with-the-bath water dismissals simply because we don't like where the conclusion leads isn't helping anyone (though it feels good). We're all football coaches here...we all have an interest to see the game continue as we "know it to be", we don't have to be PC or make apologies for the game. Does repeated brain trauma have degenerative effects? thats something to look at. That doesn't necessarily mean that football is bad or a dangerous sport. Does that mean I don't think the DPI / QB hit calls on any pass play aren't ridiculous? no (I honestly don't know how you're supposed to "coach" an NFL defense) I WILL say, though, I do appreciate the new NCAA rule regarding helmets that come off, if for no other reason than to make sure players keep their {censored} helmet on and fitted properly |
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Post by bleefb on Jan 11, 2013 19:00:53 GMT -6
"I WILL say, though, I do appreciate the new NCAA rule regarding helmets that come off, if for no other reason than to make sure players keep their {censored} helmet on and fitted properly"
AMEM! My number pet peeve in the helmet controversy is the fact that these helmets are OBVIOUSLY under-inflated is NEVER mentioned!
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Post by captainpp on Jan 14, 2013 18:36:11 GMT -6
Many of you here are Masters of your craft at being teachers and getting a solid education. Myself I'm not as well versed as you. Sometimes I feel out of place so I don't respond much but I am asking for your indulgence with this topic. I have TBI. which I am rated at 90% disable though the V.A. Other things after the service occurred which didn't help this out much but I'm not going into detail with that. The things you guys mention about someone with a brain problem are correct. All of them add up but lack of sleep for me anyway was the main. Use of pain pills and alcohol for a long time seemed to be the fix but it wasn't. I was losing it at a young age. I was on the road to fill in another % on DCohio's list. Just was wondering if things like this were associated with these other players. I could be completely off my rocker but now that alcohol is gone and a small amount of meds and trigger point injection's I don't feel all that bad. Just curious that's all. Please understand that I'm not trying to reflex any thing negative about these guys. My heart goes out to the families. Just hopeful that they were receiving the proper care after football.
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Post by brophy on Jan 15, 2013 9:38:36 GMT -6
no doubt depression is an issue. There are a lot of reasons for depression....not all are emotionally driven. Football is a really different sport that I'm not sure has many parallels outside of wrestling/mma (being so competitively driven, premised on physical pain). For what its worth, I'm sure the nature of football wires us all to be "not normal" (unless you're a QB or receiver). We don't operate at the same level as regular people. That in itself (IMO) predisposes us for abnormal, compulsive behavior.  For the sake of the discussion, though, its important to remain focused on what is being discussed. The scientific research regarding head trauma is what is pointing to a precursor to these chemical changes in the body that lead to depression and psychological issues (and other degenerative conditions). Can we have a discussion on the impact of brain injuries and their impact on the body without getting defensive and dismissive? theconcussionblog.com/2013/01/15/concussion-symposium-march-2nd/Does the current meme of "head injuries" in football have any parallels that we faced 20 years ago with the death of Corey Stringer and the heat strokes and hydration issues that were foreign to the old school way of life back then? I remember playing and water wasn't really an issue, nor was body temperature......nowadays, we wouldn't even think about not considering these as major issues in planning practice. The point being, were we as sick of hearing about hydration issues 30 years ago and how the media is pissing their pants over this? Sure we can be frustrated with anything that is negatively reported about the sport (or incorrectly reported from 'analysts'), but it doesn't discount the facts surrounding human biology. Its rather enlightening to better understand the current studies with brain injuries and what can be done to minimize their occurrence (understanding the contributing factors). If you're sick of hearing it from the news (as am I), you can always choose to quit listening to it (it is the better option) because, lets face it, when was the last time you actually got something (other than simple entertainment fluff) out of the news / ESPN? |
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Post by blb on Jan 15, 2013 10:42:44 GMT -6
I agree and I am not sure what is going on as to why there is such and increase in concussions today as opposed to 30 years ago. I think one possibility is there isn't much difference, 30 years ago there wasn't a centralized data base where data could be totaled. I have to wonder with the increase in concussion numbers, if the "safer" helmet/equipment is actually "safer". I also wonder, how many HS concussions are repeat concussions by kids who may have experienced a concussion as a youth or MS player and were not treated or diagnosed. Obviously it's a problem. Don't know if there's been an increase in concussions or more and better testing-reporting. There was oil in Texas before 1901, just nobody had found it yet. Couple random thoughts: The game is played almost exclusively above the waist now. AT HS level NFHS outlawed blocking below the waist 30+ years ago. And in NFL I have heard more than once that there is an understanding that players are not going hit each other in the knees. Heck hardly any of them wear knee or thigh pads because they're never going to hit the ground. Stands to reason that helmets and therefore heads are going to be involved more. Secondly, few years ago I had chance to be down on field before an NFL game. The size, speed, quickness of the players - even the "skilled" guys - is unbelievable. I'm not so sure that today's players haven't outgrown the 100x53 1/3 field. |
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Post by fantom on Jan 15, 2013 10:46:56 GMT -6
I have to wonder with the increase in concussion numbers, if the "safer" helmet/equipment is actually "safer". Anybody who would put his head down and ram with the top of his head while wearing a Riddell Suspension didn't need concussions. He was crazy to start with. |
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