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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2012 11:52:38 GMT -6
I'm watching the Air Force-Rice game now and the announcers were talking about how Air Force has had turnover problems this year. One of the commentators said something like, "I'm real surprised at the lack of discipline with an academy team" in regards to the turnovers. I view turnoves as being the result of a combination of factors like lack of offensive skill, good defensive technique, and othes but not necessarily lack of discipline. Agree or disagee?
BTW, I'm not wanting this to be another thread where we rip on commentators, because I've heard coaches say this too. Just wanting some thoughts.
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Post by austinator on Dec 29, 2012 12:13:01 GMT -6
IIRC, Army or Navy also has issues holding on to the football. Part of it seemed to be system. With the option teams, my guess is the dive / keep / pitch reads can lead turnovers because of the RB trying to keep it when the QB tries to pull it or on the pitch (at least that's what I've noticed watching the triple option teams).
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Post by austinator on Dec 29, 2012 12:15:43 GMT -6
But to answer your question, do turnovers mean a lack of discipline? Yes and No? It could mean the ball carriers carry the ball like a loaf of bread and therefore an undisciplined team.
It could mean that the QB sees the field different than a WR on an option route and it's a pick 6. I don't see this as undisciplined but more of lack of focus or mental error
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Post by mholst40 on Dec 29, 2012 12:22:30 GMT -6
The MOST disciplined teams in the country are the service academy squads.
IMO, there isn't a direct correlation between discipline and turnovers. I think there is more of a correlation with penalties and discipline.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 29, 2012 13:01:14 GMT -6
The MOST disciplined teams in the country are the service academy squads. IMO, there isn't a direct correlation between discipline and turnovers. I think there is more of a correlation with penalties and discipline. I think one needs to be careful when comparing on field and off field discipline. While it would seem natural that they go hand in hand, I don't know if that is necessarily the case (just like having a muscular frame doeesn't necessarily mean you are more powerful than another) I remember in John Madden's books how he talked about how disciplined his Raider teams were....ON THE FIELD. Not off the field..but ON THE FIELD. |
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Post by CS on Dec 29, 2012 13:05:45 GMT -6
I don't think that it's a lack of discipline but a lack of coaching. If they put more priority on ball handling in practice it probably wouldn't happen as much
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Post by joboo59 on Dec 29, 2012 13:40:23 GMT -6
Having run the triple option you must accept the fact you will have fumbles! Bad reads, bad pitches, etc are not always a direct result of on field discipline. If a DE gets a finger on a pitch it may not be the QBs fault. At the same time pitching a ball late, low, pulling it late, these would be discipline issues...even against the best defense.
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Post by sweep26 on Dec 29, 2012 13:43:46 GMT -6
I have been doing this for a lot of years and I tend to agree with coachsmyly. Most fumbles happen at the end of runs, etc. Nearly all fumbles could be prevented by simply covering the ball with both hands/arms at the end of the run...this is coached skill.
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Post by mholst40 on Dec 29, 2012 14:09:57 GMT -6
The MOST disciplined teams in the country are the service academy squads. IMO, there isn't a direct correlation between discipline and turnovers. I think there is more of a correlation with penalties and discipline. I think one needs to be careful when comparing on field and off field discipline. While it would seem natural that they go hand in hand, I don't know if that is necessarily the case (just like having a muscular frame doeesn't necessarily mean you are more powerful than another) I remember in John Madden's books how he talked about how disciplined his Raider teams were....ON THE FIELD. Not off the field..but ON THE FIELD. I think they go hand-in-hand. I would venture to say everyone teaches discipline throughout the off-season and in the weight room in hopes it translates onto the field. The more disciplined off-the-field team (better grades, attendance, etc.) will beat a less disciplined off the field team of equal talent. The analogy involving a muscular frame isn't relative to this discussion at all. That's not comparing apples to apples. |
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Post by indian1 on Dec 29, 2012 14:10:46 GMT -6
NEVER LISTEN TO COMMENTATORS
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Post by blb on Dec 29, 2012 14:39:10 GMT -6
You only get turnovers if you tolerate them in practice.
Or if your kids are poorly coached.
Or from poorly called plays.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 29, 2012 14:49:38 GMT -6
I think one needs to be careful when comparing on field and off field discipline. While it would seem natural that they go hand in hand, I don't know if that is necessarily the case (just like having a muscular frame doeesn't necessarily mean you are more powerful than another) I remember in John Madden's books how he talked about how disciplined his Raider teams were....ON THE FIELD. Not off the field..but ON THE FIELD. I think they go hand-in-hand. I would venture to say everyone teaches discipline throughout the off-season and in the weight room in hopes it translates onto the field. The more disciplined off-the-field team (better grades, attendance, etc.) will beat a less disciplined off the field team of equal talent. The analogy involving a muscular frame isn't relative to this discussion at all. That's not comparing apples to apples. I think the analogy IS relevant because we are talking about perceptions that SEEM to make sense, but aren't always so. For example, the natural assumption for those that don't know any better is to think that THIS guy :  is more powerful than this guy  I am just saying that John Madden said in his books that his Raider teams were VERY disciplined when it came to football.... and very wild when they were on their own time. Michael Irvin was known to be a very disciplined player... and not so much off the field. That is all I am saying. |
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Post by davishfc on Dec 29, 2012 15:39:42 GMT -6
I don't see this as undisciplined but more of lack of focus or mental error Huh? I believe a lack of focus and mental errors are most certainly related to a lack of discipline. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2012 15:40:57 GMT -6
If I had heard ONLY commentators mention this, I wouldn't have bothered to start the thread. However, I've heard coaches say this too so I just wanted to hear what others thought.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 29, 2012 15:47:29 GMT -6
there isn't a direct correlation between discipline and turnovers I think if there's a lack of technique on the part of the ball carrier that results in a turnover, particularly if ball security is taught and reinforced regularly by coaches, I would credit that to a lack of discipline. |
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Post by carookie on Dec 29, 2012 15:48:13 GMT -6
I think to answer this question you need to define what discipline means, at least to the OP.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 29, 2012 15:52:11 GMT -6
You only get turnovers if you tolerate them in practice. Or if your kids are poorly coached. Or from poorly called plays. Coach, You don't think a turnover could result if a defender puts his face mask right through the ball on a tackle? I feel like this could happen for a well coached team that doesn't tolerate turnovers in practice on a good play call. |
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Post by blb on Dec 29, 2012 16:11:00 GMT -6
You don't think a turnover could result if a defender puts his face mask right through the ball on a tackle? Not if the ball is being carried properly. See replies #12 and 14 this thread. |
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Post by olinecoach61 on Dec 29, 2012 17:05:24 GMT -6
It is absolutely a lack of discipline. There is no excuse for turning the ball over.
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Post by mariner42 on Dec 29, 2012 17:15:02 GMT -6
You achieve what you emphasize. There's always the element of randomness to the game, sometimes weird crap just happens, but you can also minimize the 'careless' or 'accidental' fumbles.
Lochness talks about this sometimes, how they are constantly making ball security a point of emphasis and they really just don't have issues with fumbles. I'm not saying that the coaches at the academies are slappies that don't know how to coach their players, but I do believe you can help mitigate turnovers by making ball retention/protection a point of emphasis for your program.
Discipline? Not really. I agree with whoever said that discipline is probably much more strongly correlated to penalties than turnovers. I'd also say it correlates to allowing big plays for the other team, either on offense or defense.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2012 17:46:44 GMT -6
Good stuff so far guys and I agree that it probably depends on what your definition of discipline is. Also, I wasn't meaning to say that the academies aren't disciplined or don't have good coaching; it just so happened that Air Force was playing and used as the example when I posted this. It could have been any team with turnover issues.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Dec 29, 2012 17:57:34 GMT -6
Teams can be disciplined but not necessarily well-coached in certain fundamentals.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 29, 2012 18:12:03 GMT -6
Drew Brees turned the ball over 9 times in a 3 game span...is he undisciplined, or poorly coached? He was making bad decisions yes..but would you attribute that to him not being fundamental or him being undisciplined off the field?
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Post by norcaldiaz on Dec 29, 2012 18:21:26 GMT -6
During our state championship game broadcast, a stat was shown that De La Salle HS fumbled the ball 30 times this year. They also fumbled 3 times when we played them. DLS is known for their discipline perhaps more than anything yet they were fumbling all year.
I think that a lack of discipline is a potential factor that can lead to turnovers, but not the only factor.
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Post by blb on Dec 29, 2012 18:23:09 GMT -6
Drew Brees turned the ball over 9 times in a 3 game span...is he undisciplined, or poorly coached? He was making bad decisions yes..but would you attribute that to him not being fundamental or him being undisciplined off the field? It may mean even great players can lose their "discipline" when they press or are under duress, externally or internally. However, I don't think he ever threw nine INTs in three games (hell even a full season) when Payton was coaching him. Causation, or correlation? |
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Post by bigm0073 on Dec 29, 2012 18:57:18 GMT -6
Discipline stems from the head coach down.
Yes I do agree it is a lack of discipline and it starts with the head coach down. An occasional bad day happens... or two... But if this a trend in a program (If you are losing the +/- battle win turnovers) I do believe it stems from the head coach and what he accepts.
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Post by fantom on Dec 29, 2012 19:23:25 GMT -6
Johnny Unitas was once quoted as saying, "Interceptions don't happen if you know what you're doing". Next game he threw four.
If it's a trend then coaching is probably to blame. A bad game or even a bad season me just be bad luck.
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Post by sweep26 on Dec 29, 2012 23:20:24 GMT -6
Make a cut-up of all of your fumbles during the past season. Then form your own opinion of why it is happening.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 30, 2012 9:46:56 GMT -6
Well..here's the 2 things I know...#1 The HC needs to make ball security a priority...many of us have ball strip circuits..how many of us have ball security circuits? That being said,#2 the best way to stop turnovers is don't give the kid that has a tendency to turn the ball over the BALL.. as much as you hope and pray...the kid WILL NOT get better at holding the ball
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 30, 2012 9:49:19 GMT -6
I have been doing this for a lot of years and I tend to agree with coachsmyly. Most fumbles happen at the end of runs, etc. Nearly all fumbles could be prevented by simply covering the ball with both hands/arms at the end of the run...this is coached skill. so true..we used to practice this by having a rb job and a defender trail him as soon as the rb felt any contact he covered up the ball w/ 2 hands..simple effective drill that was easy to do and could also been done in a "relaxed" setting like in prepractice |
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