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Post by chiefscoach on Jun 15, 2006 20:24:01 GMT -6
Well, and I'm sure this is going to get some people fired up but some of the best high school football played in the country is played here in Florida and most counties in Florida do not have MS football teams yet the High Schools still have plenty of time to get thier offense and defenses in. I'm sure it really helps a program but by no means do I think it should be used as a scape goat, nor do I think its a must in order to be successful. Just my opinion.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 15, 2006 20:36:47 GMT -6
Yes the "little" fiefdom I created serves over 500 kids annually so Im going to affect more kids than most HS coaches. And yes the kids are going to have a great time, get to play, win and learn fundamentals. All without any regard to the needs of some HS coach to get a head start with his schemes he is predicting he will be using 5 years from now LOL. That BTW if he still happens to be at that school.
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Post by groundchuck on Jun 15, 2006 21:31:03 GMT -6
Look, there are many many "X" factors here. Each side of this debate (and it is a good debate) has its points. You have made your points, now move on because this is turning into a war of attrition. Several varsity coaches feel feeder programs are important to varying degrees. Many other coaches feel that program alignment is not as important, or not important at all. Depending on the situation all of us are right.
I do know this. If my boss tells me to do something then I better comply, or I should start looking for a new job. Regardless of how long I have been there, or whether or not I think he'll be there in 5 years.
Que sera, sera.
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Post by phantom on Jun 15, 2006 22:05:12 GMT -6
BTW Again for the umpteenth time how many of them are going to be around 5 years from now and if they are how many will be running the same offense, answer is VERY FEW, lets be honest here. Because you've said this several times I'll answer my impulse from the first time I read it. You must have a heck of a turnover in your area if you don't expect a HC to be around in 5 years. Of course, if they change their offense every five years, no wonder.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 15, 2006 22:14:42 GMT -6
(((Plus- who gives a f--k if only a small number of the kids go on to play at the varsity level- those kids will have the advantage of being involved with the same scheme for the majority of their football careers. )0 Ok on one hand the consensus is make sure all the kids get a chance to play then on the other hand who cares " f---k" about the ones that dont go on to play HS ball. A bit of a disconnect. I care about the kids I coach, of which by national statistics most will not go on to play HS ball, so do I run a sysytem that is not age appropriate and drive off the kids that want to play so I can make a HS coach feel good? I play em all. BTW Again for the umpteenth time how many of them are going to be around 5 years from now and if they are how many will be running the same offense, answer is VERY FEW, lets be honest here.My kids will know how to block, tackle, pull , trap, fold double team, amoung others. If you cant teach them to play your scheme in 4 years, golly gotta find another job. This has been one of the arguments the whole time in this discussion- many of the coaches around here feel that its not important to run the HS offense because they say most of the kids don't go on to play varsity ball. I care a great deal about the kids I coach- the entire first group of offensive/defensive lineman I coached as 7th graders went on to not only play, but to start at the varsity. Of the 20 kids I had on that team, 17 are now playing varsity football. And that is a statistic that followed me through my years at that level. Maybe your kids don't continue playing, but mine do. I ran the BASICS of the HS scheme- not the entire offense and they moved up and had great success. The basics of any football scheme are age appropriate and can be taught. By the way you've been arguing over this discussion, I can see that you're nothing more than another youth/MS coach wrapped in his ego and his "better way". If you want to continue to grow as a coach you'd better think about listening to other coaches. And by the way the HS coaches around here last for decades, so it is completely feasible to run the same schemes.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jun 15, 2006 22:29:30 GMT -6
For someone like myself who has a love of football... and a reasonably good sense of humor... I am tired of this.
I'll end with this...
chiefscoach... you've been drawn in to the madness. Escape while you can... "don't look back... lest you be consumed".
I am glad you are so impressed with your own abilities dave... I really am. And you may be one heck of a coach. But you are just making yourself look like an a$$ here... you either don't read or don't understand the posts... if you don't understand, then it might be in your best interest to simply not reply. If you don't read them... then you are being lazy and spending a great deal of time pointing out the speck in another's eye while a log is jammed in your own.
I will say that some of you really do not belong on this board. It is for serious coaches who wish to discuss schemes, methodology, and issues relating to all levels of football. It is not like a rivals forum where those who have a computer , a hidden identity and no media credentials can simply chant an inane, repetitive banter.
I am sorry if I have inadvertently offended some... but this is really traveling in to a realm of stupidity that even I won't touch...
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coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
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Post by coachf on Jun 16, 2006 0:18:02 GMT -6
I will touch the stupidity senator. Mostly because I think I started an argument like this a while ago, dealing with the youth league philosophy.
Looking back and examining my intentions, I realized the real problem is coaches. I wasn't ticked that they ran the DW and the 10-1 or 8-3 or ,whatever the crap, defense. I was ticked because they were/are bad coaches. I watch the games and see the junk going on on the sidelines and I listen to them when they move up to high school and ask if I can "send the house." It infuriates me that they don't teach kids how to pull, or kickout, how to get their heads on the right side, how to keep their feet moving, etc. I just hate cleaning up the garbage.
Now, if you gave me a great JFL coach, he could run whatever the heck he wants and I will be happy. Maybe some of you guys could move to my town and help out. I just want a coach who respects the game and makes my soon to be players great. If they run what I run...bonus. If they don't, who cares? It's mostly about formations, anyway, and that shouldn't be a problem.
I think a lot of HS coaches worry about this because of the massive burden on their shoulders. I feel like I not only carry the weight of my kids, but the whole school, heck the whole community. Whole towns shut down because of the HS games. We look for any advantage we can get and sometimes look to blame when it isn't working. I think we blame it on philosophies, when really we are mad that people at a lower level (speaking only situationally, don't freak out!!) aren't as committed as we are. Are we going to say that to them? No, so we just blame it on what they are running. Not a real good thing to do.
I do think it is a mistake for the JFL to completely dismiss the HS coach and vice versa. We are working the JFL camp this year as coaches and players to try and create an environment where these coaches will work closer with us. I hope it works, if it doesn't...well, we tried and at least these young guys got to see some of their heroes in action. And I think the JFL coaches need to get together with the HS coaches to make sure everyone is working together for a common goal....regardless of how you attain it.
Lastly, there is way to many smug and egotistical statements on here. Just because you are a HC (regardless of level) does not make you God. Treat people with respect.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 16, 2006 7:28:10 GMT -6
For the record, I'm done with this conversation. There's no point in discussing this poiny any further.
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Post by brophy on Jun 16, 2006 7:33:25 GMT -6
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Post by brophy on Jun 16, 2006 7:50:50 GMT -6
I think we all can find a comfort level with particular schemes....so the term "age appropriate" scheme kinda goes over my head. I've coached a lot of different offenses / defenses, and sure, I have MY preferences, but TEACHING it is 80% fundmantals anyway.....
Discounting whether or not an offense / defense is age appropriate (for all that I can see) is based soley on OUR comfort level and how confident we are in our own abilities. "If I can't get this offense, how can I teach it to the kids?"....which would require help from the Varsity staff (or whoever) to break it down to it's basics to make that 'system' digestable. I think the Wing-T / Single Wing is no more complicated than Shotgun Air Raid offense - it is all in how it is presented. I also don't think you can ONLY run 9 man fronts on defense...like someone has already pointed out....it all boils down to formations anyway.
When all is said and done, though - hats off to the youth coaches. There are just as many bad / good youth coaches as there are Varsity coaches.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 16, 2006 11:26:28 GMT -6
Shotgun air raid for 8-10 year olds? Ok maybe for 1 team out of 50. But you just made my point for me.
The top 9 year old in the nation for Punt Pass and Kick throws 26 yards, the best one.
That would mean the average one would throw about 12-15 yards and not very accurate to boot.
When we see teams at the youth level play this type of scheme, invariably it's a slaughter. Most rarely complete a pass or even get a first down, and how much fun is that for the kids?
My teams are primarily running teams we throw less than all but maybe 1 team in our league, but we always have more completions and TDs than the other teams. So more throwing does not equal more fun, more catches, more TD passes etc. While well coached kids can do much more than many think, with just 2-3 days per week and the size, age of many teams there are offenses that make no sense at the youth level. After watching and coaching 100s of youth games in various leagues, I think I can speak from experience
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Post by davecisar on Jun 16, 2006 12:00:00 GMT -6
Coach F, I would agree with your statements. There are many poor youth coaches and some good ones too. The difference is the youth coaches are not getting paid to do this, this is not their livelihood this is not their "thing" they get paid to do something else, not coach football. Many are pressed into the job because no one else will do it. For The HS coach, this is his job, he better be doing it well. I realize the pressure but many of us have jobs with lots of pressure too and many accross America lose their jobs daily because the employer feels there is someone out there that can do it better. There is no tenure in Corp America. I totally agree with you on the "send the house" type junk coaches. I dont like seeing that, my team rarely blitzes and the offensive play I hate worst is the sweep. Anyone with speed can run a sweep or a reverse, even when I had speed I would rarely if ever run a sweep or reverse. We are here to teach good fundamental football that makes sense for the age and abilties of the kids. That DW team you mentioned, the kids should have come in knowing how to trap, kickout, pull, double, fold etc. I agree, we see many poor sideline antics in youth ball, I dont allow any of it. But we just dont see any HS coaches helping us or any of those teams we see performing poorly. I agree the youth coach just needs to respect the game and help make the players great. Thats hard to do if the kids arent in an age appropriate system and they get discouraged and go 1-7. Kids want to have fun and have some success, otherwise most lose interest and will not play past the youth level.
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Post by tog on Jun 16, 2006 19:48:52 GMT -6
Let us clarify the point someone made
if the HS HFC is the boss of the jr hi guys, if he is the one that hires and fires them
then they had better run what they are told
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Post by coachcalande on Jun 17, 2006 5:27:51 GMT -6
Tog- You nailed it on the head. If the guy is your boss and he makes his expectations clear its the jr high/ms/jv or whatever level guys job to to fall in line and do the best job he can in following whatever lead hes given...I am speaking from experience now, if you dont respect the guy and his system well enough to follow his lead, then get the heck out of dodge while the gettins good. dont waste your time in a lousy nowhere program. In my own experience, I asked my last boss if I could continue to run the double wing after my first year, he didnt like it but he allowed it as long as we were using his back and hole numbering and teaching the game... he knew hed get good football players from me. in year two he agreed reluctantly again knowing that if he said "no" id be outta there. besides, he was still tinkering with his own ideas and not really settled on a system. Just before year three he began to push for more of his stamp on things(wishbone stuff)...not worth the drive for me to run someone elses stuff...I just stepped aside to make room for someone else to do it. No sense in being miserable.
Coaches at every level want to coach, want to create, want their own stamp on things...I dont think thats a bad thing. Heck, how else can you learn? I think i got way ahead in terms of my own double wing system by getting an opportunity to run it... Ultimately Id think it would create more of an "us" and "we" attitude if guys didnt see it as "us versus them" in regards to which level they coach at... coaching is teaching, its all about the kids. Dave and the other guys all made good point about what they do...doesnt have to be nasty.
..course now that im doing the whole feeder thing and taking great pride in it and doing a great job if I say so myself ( and have just enough room to create and do things my way)...and a winning coach to follow its alot easier. Having worked at two schools where the varsity struggled constantly and now two schools where the varsity teams were playoff caliber...Someone else said it best "I wont work for someone I dont respect". that should go both ways, dont hire someone you dont respect either.
heres my suggestion for both sides of this debate...
1) varsity guys - establish a plan to get the lower level guys on your staff...make them feel as if its a we thing, not a you thing. no one bigger than the team, no team bigger than the program... see if you can involve them on friday nights, be involved in what the lowers are doing on sat and sun afternoons. give some room for ownership while showing the feeders what kind of things youd like the kids to know by the time they are ready for the next level...teach the lowers how you do things, perhaps they will like what you do and incorporate your drills and practice habits into what they do. teach your schemes and philosophies...perhaps they will learn and impliment them...win, gain respect by being respectable. If youre getting pasted every friday night just fix your own team before worryign about what the other levels are doing. that will probably get everyones attention.
for the lower level guys- offer to help the varsity, see if theres a few things you can do to put your team into a feeder mode...can you at least use similar names for plays and formations and the same back and hole numbering? hang around practices and camp and see if you can teach some of the same stuff. can you get your kids to come to the games on friday nights? can you film, scout or work the booth? can your kids sell programs and tickets? can you send the varsity guy your game films so he can at least evaluate the talent you have (maybe he will see how it is you are winning and learn something himself? worked for me as a former boss said after watching our stuff "im sold on the 3 back power offense" and he changed from a "formation freak" to a wishbone guy...not the dw but hey, at least similar run the ball first mentality) the HC is the HC, hes trying to win games...even if hes clueless maybe if you help theres a chance for the team to improve. maybe not, lol.
anyhow, my point...not sure lol...teach the game, great fundamentals and sportsmanship. try to support the varsity along the way while you win your league. team work at the coaching ranks will probably effect the kids in a whole lot of positive ways.
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Post by tye2021 on Jun 17, 2006 8:17:12 GMT -6
I think I'm starting to understand a little about where the varsity coaches are coming from, but I want to make a point. Some of you seem to be concerned that the jh guys are going to be doing all out blitzing and not teaching kids how to really play football. If YOU ARE THE BOSS, why would you hire someone that can not coach? If you are not the boss and the jh guys are not teaching kids the fundamentals of the game, how to play football and are not doing their part to retain players, see if you can hold a coaching clinic to provide some assistance to the jh coach.
Having said that I agree with everything that coachcalande just posted. Even if you are not directly hired by the varsity coaches it might be worth it and beneficial to everyone if the jh coach and the varsity coach can come to an arrangement of sorts.
Get involved and stay involved!
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Post by tye2021 on Jun 17, 2006 8:27:41 GMT -6
ps... I think we've pretty much made and re-made just about every argument there could be from both sides....lol It maybe time to put this one to bed.
Good luck to everyone!
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Post by coachcalande on Jun 17, 2006 11:02:27 GMT -6
"Sporting good marketers tell me that there are more than twice the number of players in football uniforms between the ages of 8 and 13 than there are above the age of 14.This includes all the jr and Sr. H S,college,and pro and semi pro players."- Chuck Klausing
I SALUTE THE YOUTH FOOTBALL COACH. ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT WORK HARD TO BE THE BEST AT WHAT THEY DO.
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