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Post by coachklee on Dec 12, 2012 9:43:30 GMT -6
I was going to post this because I think it is a worthwhile discussion. Obviously someone probably turned this into a political, end of the nation discussion and the original thread disappeared because of that. If we aren't suppose to discuss the student-athletes that we coach, let me know and I won't...if we can keep focused on addressing the supposed premise of the original article that would be great. I'm genuinely interested in ideas and especially success stories of how to better help the students and student-athletes I interact with. I'm not quite so down on kids or the generation. I saw this same stuff in the early 90's when I played. I don't think the generation is lazy and just doesn't care. I think it's more there are so many others groups and activities to get involved with the numbers are suffering. When football was the only option in town, things were different I hope you are right...but my anecdotal evidence says this is more of a problem then just football numbers. My view is probably biased as I am currently teaching in a Title 1 grant funded position at a school with a high number of free and reduced lunch students of which I see the lowest achieving students. Regardless, from my perspective, many students seem to want to just get by...maybe I'm starting to become an old fart at only 27 years old and I'm remembering my perspective on working hard and trying my best, but it seems that so many students are at best blissfully ignorant that everything will work out if they just get by...like with Ds...that are fake Ds and would have been Es with the teachers that I had...and more often stubbornly refusing to even try let alone try their best because the parental support and discipline is not the same as what my parents provided me or I am going to try to provide my daughter and future children. I guess regardless of anybody's opinion or any statistics, I firmly believe that while kids are probably still the same, the world surrounding them has changed...the current economic situation is not positive...I think parenting and dysfunctional families, not just divorced/separated families, negatively impact kids...thus the kids that we see by the time they hit high school have been changed...a case of nurture or lack of nurture. Anyways, I know a problem when I see it...I'm going to do my darnedest to fix as a teacher and coach or I need to find a new career because I refuse to settle for less than my best. Until I work up the courage and make the commitment to find that new career I'm stuck teaching so I might as well do that to the best of my ability otherwise I'm a hypocrite. davishfc: I'm interested in picking up that book...how much does it go for on amazon.com or in the bookstore? Side note: I avoided turning this into a political, we are doomed as a nation thing so hopefully everyone else can do that too and this thread can stay up.
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Post by newhope on Dec 12, 2012 9:48:27 GMT -6
Having been in coaching for 40 years, I still think kids respond to discipline, hard work and caring the same way they did in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. There is a difference, however, in their PARENTS. Parents are more likely not to want their child to undergo any type of hardship than they were in the past. If you can get the kid away from the helicopter parent, you'll find he's not really any different than kids in the past.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 12, 2012 9:49:14 GMT -6
I guess I turned it political...sorry about that..so I will stay away from the politics...The OP said he was having trouble getting kids out so he was pinning the blame on the kids and maybe ther parents....I say look in the mirror..we live in the richest largest county in the USA...these kids have every toy and every advantage..There were two kids in our county to turn down FULL SCHOLARSHIPS because they "didn't "like" the schools that offered them (not kidding).our school are 1500-1800 in enrollment.. our teams regularly have 50+ frosh on their squads, some don't however and much of that can be blamed for demographics, they do have good soccer teams so their are boys going out for sports just not football...
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Post by coachklee on Dec 12, 2012 10:26:54 GMT -6
Having been in coaching for 40 years, I still think kids respond to discipline, hard work and caring the same way they did in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. There is a difference, however, in their PARENTS. Parents are more likely not to want their child to undergo any type of hardship than they were in the past. If you can get the kid away from the helicopter parent, you'll find he's not really any different than kids in the past. So are we idiots for trying to overcome years of parenting?!?!?
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Post by davishfc on Dec 12, 2012 10:40:19 GMT -6
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Post by coachklee on Dec 12, 2012 10:49:41 GMT -6
I guess I turned it political...sorry about that..so I will stay away from the politics...The OP said he was having trouble getting kids out so he was pinning the blame on the kids and maybe ther parents....I say look in the mirror..we live in the richest largest county in the USA..our school are 1500-1800 in enrollment.. our teams regularly have 50+ frosh on their squads, some don't however and much of that can be blamed for demographics, they do have good soccer teams so their are boys going out for sports just not football... No biggie...I do that to these kind of topics all the time. What type of demographics do you see impacting this? How do you think you try overcome that...especially in the classroom where we are supposed to "leave no child behind?"
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Post by Coach Bennett on Dec 12, 2012 11:07:17 GMT -6
One of my favorite quotes about "kids today" -
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
Just so happens it was written about 2400 years ago by a dude named Socrates.
I agree with the post about getting kids away from the helicopter parent and believe that kids actually crave discipline. They want to know what is expected of them, what the consequences are if expectations are not met, and that the aforementioned will be handled consistently and fairly.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 12, 2012 11:27:37 GMT -6
It all starts at home, folks. It's not Lil Johnny's fault if Mom and Dad let him play video games and screw around on Facebook all day. It's awful hard to demand much out of a kid if the parents aren't doing the same thing. If Mom and Dad are content to allow their kid to pal around in social circles that aren't productive then their kid isn't going to be productive. Some kids don't need that push at home as they love sports and all that they entail. Some need that push from home and won't participate if they don't get it.
Growing up, my mother had a rule; we were either doing an extra-curricular activity or we were getting a job. I played sports all through high school; my brother worked at Pizza Hut. When it just came down to football and weight training my junior year (no other sports) my mom told me to get a job once the season was over. I was only lifting four days a week so she shipped me to work.
And, FYI, I'm a part of Generation Y.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 12, 2012 11:29:12 GMT -6
One of my favorite quotes about "kids today" - The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.Just so happens it was written about 2400 years ago by a dude named Socrates. Nice. But no mention of the world around them changing rapidly. Socrates didn't grow up with an iPod, Playstation 3, or X Box 360 nor did the kids he's describing. Things are most certainly different. Kids were clearly the same way back then as they are now. However, the environment around them from 2400 years ago, heck 10 or even 5 years ago, are vastly different. That's the issue. It's the nurture NOT the nature in question. Kids will be kids and they will be kids for the rest of time. But will the environment around them continue to change them in ways we could have never imagined? Only time will tell. I agree with the post about getting kids away from the helicopter parent You can't just get them away from their parents. Sure you have them for the time you have them, but even if they are out with your program all four years, we're talking 4 years for us against 17 years for their parents. Getting kids away from the helicopter parent will never be an option. So how do we go about being effective without that as an option? That is the question.
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Post by coachklee on Dec 12, 2012 11:59:06 GMT -6
So what kind of suggestions does the "Generation iY" book offer?
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Post by airman on Dec 12, 2012 20:10:11 GMT -6
My Sr Drill Instructor once said " The end of the USA will happen the day the USMC cannot make its enlistment numbers" The USMC has never not made its recruit numbers even in the middle of the Iraq war when the Army was not making them.
with gen iY, I am sure there will come that day.
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Post by coachklee on Dec 12, 2012 20:21:59 GMT -6
My Sr Drill Instructor once said " The end of the USA will happen the day the USMC cannot make its enlistment numbers" The USMC has never not made its recruit numbers even in the middle of the Iraq war when the Army was not making them. with gen iY, I am sure there will come that day. Then we need to find a way to make sure that gen iY doesn't do that!
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Post by wolfden12 on Dec 12, 2012 20:36:00 GMT -6
davishfc, You bring up a good point. The young people of today need so many things and parents are putting the weight on coaches and educators. However, you bring up a great point when the parent has double digit years and we have 4 or less and they expect us to fix the problems they have tolerated for so long and/or don't want to be bothered with. Then have the audacity to say you are the problem for the child not meeting expectations when they do not want to parent, discipline, or help with the education of the child.
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Post by tog on Dec 13, 2012 6:45:08 GMT -6
Having been in coaching for 40 years, I still think kids respond to discipline, hard work and caring the same way they did in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. There is a difference, however, in their PARENTS. Parents are more likely not to want their child to undergo any type of hardship than they were in the past. If you can get the kid away from the helicopter parent, you'll find he's not really any different than kids in the past.
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Post by brophy on Dec 13, 2012 6:54:31 GMT -6
parents blaming coaches teachers blaming parents administrators blaming teachers
and we wonder what the hell is wrong with the kids?
WHY should kids invest in hard work and greater goals of the group? Do you see anywhere in our society where those types of people aren't getting screwed over?
THAT is the real challenge. Coaching is infinitely more of a challenge nowadays, particularly in football. We have more of a burden to create a compelling environment. It is what it is.
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Post by coachklee on Dec 13, 2012 10:59:10 GMT -6
I'm not casting blame...I'm looking for answers to increase the probability they end up better off than we they met me.
That Gen iY book is on the way...very interested to read it when it gets here.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 13, 2012 11:00:34 GMT -6
So what kind of suggestions does the "Generation iY" book offer? It's a complex problem that doesn't necessarily have one or even several guaranteed solutions. I'll give you a synopsis of the author's suggestions but that will take some time. It's not going to happen until I'm at home tonight because we're talking 15 pages of material. But I will share them because some are obvious and others it really takes a true understanding of the generation to comprehend why they would be solutions.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 13, 2012 21:35:06 GMT -6
That Gen iY book is on the way...very interested to read it when it gets here. I'm reminded of my reaction to Ruby Payne's A Framework for Understand Poverty. Tim Elmore's Generation iY: Our Last Chance to Save Their Future does a great job of explaining the challenges of interacting and impacting a generation of youth that has literally grown up online. Like Payne and her explanation of poverty's effect on individuals and societies, Elmore's description of the complex issues this generation brings is outstanding. However, the solutions to these issues are not nearly as numerous or detailed in either book. Elmore's strategies are basically pre-existing strategies but the emphasis and, more importantly, the utilization of these strategies is expressed as being so much more vital than they've ever been. The rationale being that not only are they kids with all of the challenges that the demographic has always and will always present, but their world today also revolves around iPods, iPhones, iPads, iTunes, iBooks, iChat, and iMovie. And for many of them, life is pretty much about "I."
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Post by airman on Dec 13, 2012 22:56:30 GMT -6
when you think about boys today are really cowards in many ways. In my day (middle 1980s) a boy had to man up and ask a girl out. Heck, just going up and talking to the pretty girl is school took courage. If you called a girl at her house you got a parent most likely. When you went to pick them up for a date you had to meet the parents.
Now boys ask girls out via text messaging, communicate via text messaging and break up via text messaging. The cowardly lion in the wizard of oz had more courage.
The txt message relationship has virtually cut the parents right out of the process.
there are days were i wish an electromagnetic pulse weapon was detonated sending us back about 100 years in time as our electronics would be very limited. Hey, i have to 1970s muscle cars with carbs on them. I will be able to drive.
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Post by davishfc on Dec 14, 2012 7:21:05 GMT -6
The txt message relationship has virtually cut the parents right out of the process. Generation iY is overwhelmed, overconnected, overprotected, and overserved according to Elmore. One of the factors that Elmore presents in his book that makes Generation iY (born after 1990) challenging is that they grew up wearing helmets, in booster seats in cars, girls on birth control, etc. They've been "overprotected" by their parents their entire life so they don't get hurt or make a mistake. But these kids have more access to technology than ever resulting in their "overconnected" issue. So, like airman said, boys are able to circumvent the process of meeting parents to get to know their daughter and communicate with her more. The amount of potentially detrimental conversation that takes place via texting, Facebook, twitter, etc. is frightening for parents or apparently not if it goes unaddressed. I just heard a story the other day locally about a parent that found out their 5th grader set up a Facebook page. Who know's who that kid is talking to on the internet? So it's interesting that Generation iY is perceived to be overprotected because as it pertains to technology, I don't see it. Definitely a paradox in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:25:10 GMT -6
This is a demographic, economic, and cultural problem. It goes beyond "these kids and their facebook, Xbox, and iPads, thinking it'll always be handed to them..." Our country is rotting at the core and as the middle class is shrinking, with more parents working longer hours for lower pay just to make ends meet, it sets off a domino effect that erodes the foundations of our society. We're only seeing the tip of the iceberg on where this is going.
I'm at a rural school that's about 70% free lunch and would be higher if more people would just turn in the d@mn forms. Until a few years ago, when admin made it almost impossible NOT to graduate, we only had a graduation rate in the low 70s. This whole community, from top to bottom, struggles with poverty and all the hopelessness, complacency, and cynicism that breeds.
In the classroom, I get the lowest performing students from that population. My kids haven't been "overprotected." They've been thrown to the wolves and had to learn from a very young age how to protect themselves with cynicism and a very narrow comfort zone they dare not stray out of. In one semester, I've had 2 kids run away from home (one had parents who waited 5 days to report him missing). I have a 17 year old freshman girl who has an 8 month old daughter by a guy who molested her, with parental consent, since she was 17. I've had 3 different sets of girls take out restraining orders against classmates. I've had a half dozen kids pulled from their parents due to neglect, drugs, or abuse. A lot of my kids don't even know one of their parents, or they are being raised by grandparents while mom is strung out on pills somewhere across town and dad has been MIA since they were toddlers.
This is the culture we have. Parents are overworked and overstressed. Many of them, growing up in bad homes like this, are unwittingly repeating those patterns at home with their own kids. The stress, loneliness, and lack of traditional supports like spouses, family, church and community organizations puts stretches them to the breaking point and erodes their mental health, which in turn gets passed on to the kids. When mom gets in from work, assuming she's sober enough to do anything besides pass out, all she feels the energy to do is throw some junk food in the microwave and veg out in front of the tv. Who cares about homework? She remembers those teachers making her feel small or harping on a bunch of B.S. she didn't care about. Why should her kid be any different, and besides, who has the time or energy to deal with that crap?
From what they see every day, kids learn early on that hard work doesn't necessarily get you ahead, from the media they learn that impossible standards of perfection are the measuring stick for everyone, among their peers they see that cheating and cutting corners can work, from their parents they learn that the world is a hostile place full of people who just want to scam you for their own ends, and they often see people do the right thing only to get labeled wimps or get screwed over in the end. Why should kids want to try?
We really are all about results in this country, but we look at it as solely being about wins/losses, rather than HOW you win or lose or what the difference is. Why should they want to try harder in the classroom when a D- student and an A+ student both get the same diploma? Why bust their tails in the offseason to become a great football player when the talented but lazy stud can walk out there and start over them, or they'll play anyway because they're all the team's got? Why believe that there will be rewards down the road if they sacrifice now when they don't actually have much reason to believe that's more than just another way of conning them to get in line? The life they want is a fantasy they're teased with in the media, but never actually taught, firsthand, how to achieve--or even if it really is achievable for them.
Politicians want the government to step up and fill those voids by providing welfare programs and turning the schools into a taxpayer funded babysitter service, but that's just exacerbating the problem. Schools are here to teach, but the focus on standardized testing just reinforces this idea that it's just another arbitrary hoop to jump through, so why really care? Churches try to do what they can, but what single mom wants to take her kids to a place where the whole family will be shamed, if she can even get Sundays off in the first place?
In a lot of ways, I think that the internet and iPads have actually helped in the fight against these things by at least giving kids the ability to learn about what they're interested in on their own time and figure some things out for themselves, but it's a whole society we're dealing with her. What can one teacher, or even one school, do when everyone else is undermining any attempt at instilling work ethic, real pride, or hope in these kids?
That's one of the reasons I love football. Our numbers are down just like most of the other programs, but it at least gives these kids a positive, genuine, supportive group to be a part of, free of a lot of the bureaucratic B.S. and empty promises that the schools are forcing upon them. It also shows them that nothing is guaranteed and teaches all those lessons that it always has. Now, more than ever, these kids NEED things like football in their lives.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 14, 2012 13:38:46 GMT -6
Yes, we will generally blame parenting for many of the issues that we have in the classroom. We do so because of experience and the mountain of empirical evidence that shows that lack of parental involment equates to poor classroom performance. However, I wouldn't need any quantitative data to show me this as I experience it every day. I contact the parents of my students in one form or another once or twice every two weeks and most of those communications are about positive behavior. However, I can't tell you how many times I have been in contact with the parent of a failing student and not have anything come out of it. They tell me that they'll get on Lil' Johnny about the situation but the kid comes to school with the same miserable attitude and work ethic. To make matters worse, all of those phone calls home, hours-long IEP and behavioral meetings, and one-one time with that student mean nothing. It's still my fault.
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Post by amthd45 on Dec 14, 2012 19:20:34 GMT -6
THis "playstation" generation I have coined it (need to trademark that one) is the result of politics. It truly is. I know you did not want to talk about politics, but it is the giant elephant in the room.
Lawyers and Judges have made this country go to crap. Political correctness, throwing $ at fixing problems in education, along with idiotic bureaucrats calling all the shots in Education (When a majority of them have never stepped foot in a classroom) has lead us down this path.
Remember we are one of the few industrialized nations that has "free" public education. Lots of other countrys you have to pay to be educated and if you are too poor, then oh well. So kids have a great opportunity awaiting them no matter their background. Education is the great equalizer. THink aobut you coaches who work in Title 1 schools. 90% of those kids could go to college for FREE with Pell Grants if they had good enough grades. But without the reinforcement at home they will have a tough time in becomign successful.
However not everyone is meant to go to college. Plenty of great jobs out there that dont require college degrees and they pay way more than we as teachers/coaches will ever see!! What happened to the vocational classes at schools? Gone with the wind, all so everyone can be "college prep." Well someone has to fix our AC, plumping the pipes, work on your car and you dont get that educaton going to a 4 yr college/university!
I really think we need to steer kids towards career preparation at an earlier age. Bring back the Vocational classes, and prepare them for a career and not just a job. Have them work while goign to school. DO hands on stuff!! Even the college prep kids, heck if they want to be a DR then go work at a hospital, if they want o be a lawyer then go work or intern for one. That should a kid's JR/SR years in high school. Not taking stupid A## state tests that prove nothing more than how well the teacher taught the test to the class.
THere needs to be some serious revamping to our educational system. WE are already seeing how incompetent this current generation is at knowing what hard work is all about!!
Well thats my take. I apologize for the polictical rant, but I call it like i see it sometimes!!
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