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Post by groundchuck on May 23, 2006 9:23:41 GMT -6
It seems we see alot about coaches who turned programs around by scraping the 3 yard and a cloud of dust mentality and spreading everyone out. Are there any of you/do you know of programs that threw the ball all over from spread sets and lost, then the next coach came in and went wing-t, or double wing and started to turn it around?
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Post by coachcalande on May 23, 2006 9:29:16 GMT -6
there are sooooo many.
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Post by cqmiller on May 23, 2006 9:29:25 GMT -6
Most the teams that I've seen trying to "spread everyone out" are really just trying to remove guys from the box, and run the ball still. Just like the "utah spread" with Urban Meyer. He runs the ball a lot more than he passes it.
I haven't seen any offenses at the high-school level that really THROW the ball to beat you on a consistent basis, year in & year out.
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Post by bulldog on May 23, 2006 10:01:15 GMT -6
We were a double wing team that had small, average kids and we used to get beat-up. Both physically and mentally (the kids just didn't have fun). We are in a D1 league (tops in CA) that is filled with D1-type athletes. We were tenacious and we competed, but our league has many great coaches and they were consistently stopping the DW with their great players.
We switched to Spread and the kids LOVE the offense. We went from being a doormat that was lucky to get 200 yards a game in TO, to the #4 offense in the entire section averaging over 400 yards a game. We have embarrassed a couple of teams that used to just kill our DW with their bigger, stronger, faster kids.
The Spread can be about throwing the ball, but we use it as a running offense. Our QB ran for 1500 yards last year. Our RB ran for over 1000. Both were considered average for our talent level.
There are some teams in CA that have talent that is as good or better than anyone's - and they run DW very successfully. There also some Wing-T teams that have great talent and they are very successful as well. In the end, I think it ends-up being about talent and the ability to make plays - especially if coaching is fairly equal. But I am a Spread convert.
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Post by coachdawhip on May 23, 2006 10:06:08 GMT -6
at my last job, we installed the wing-T went 6-4 the 1st year and the coach before us was the spread he went 6-24 in the 3 years before we got there.
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Post by los on May 23, 2006 11:36:54 GMT -6
That sounds like us this season Whip, and for the past 3 with the spread, hope we can get the 6-4???
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Post by saintrad on May 23, 2006 11:44:47 GMT -6
i have been on both sides of this equation... i am called a spread person but people have a misnomer about the spread thinking that it is throw the rock all the time. I am not that way, i use the spread to clear the box or give me a favorable match-up on the outside. I am usually under center and rarely use the shotgun. I believe in running the ball when the numbers favor us and throwing when they dont. I use a simple scheme of inside/outside zone, counter rey and quick pitch with a very simple 3 step and 5 step concepts. Plus I use the heck out of screens and play-action. Does that make me a "spread " person or a "3 yrds and a cloud of dust" person? who cares..its all about moving the ball an scoring.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on May 23, 2006 12:16:30 GMT -6
Good point by saintrad. Now we have generally put all 11 (or as it is now-8) guys within 4 yds. of the ball. We are usually: big, fat people who like to hit (this includes backs). Years ago we ran one SE and eventually people stopped covering him. I'd call a quick pattern to him and our QB would audible to a run, the rec. would drop the ball, or catch it for a 2 yd. gain- so we stopped and just ran 3 back 3 2 TE and were happy with 3.3 yds. per carry (and 2.5 once we crossed midfield).
As time has gone by, we have spread out a bit more to run, and we do occasionally throw it. We will probably do that more this season due to personnel, but the double wing philosophy (whatever the actual offensive set) appeals to me; there is something brutal, medieval and intimidating about a mass of humanity smashing forward... I've always liked that.
By the way, to address groundchuck's original question- when I took the job at the 5A school they had been a West Coast Team- but didn't really have the personnel and had been 1-9, 0-10, 2-8 and 1-9 the previous 4 seasons. We went 9-4 the first year running a 2TE power wishbone and double wing (12 plays total) and while I am not going to claim it was our outstanding offensive strategy that did it (we scored 186 pts. that season... barely over 14 a game. Our D was pretty darn good though), we had some good D players and the idea that the offenses job was to not screw it up for the D worked well for us. Most of our games- we had 6-7 posessions, our opponents had 5-6, so we ran 75 plays to their 25. (I'll be honest too and say that the schedule helped a lot too... we played what I considered the 3 worst teams in our class weeks 1-3. We were the worst 3-0 team in the nation at the time, but our kids thought we really knew what we were doing and bought in 100%... that was more important than what we did on offense).
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Post by coachcb on May 23, 2006 17:42:34 GMT -6
I prefer balance, no matter what kind of formation I happen to be running. If I can pound the ball at you from different angles all day, I will. If I can't, I'll throw PA, sprint outs, and and 3 step drops with nice easy patterns.
There are several teams around here that have taken the Utah approach and have had great success with it. We have one team that's straight shotgun 5 Wide and they throw the ball 50-70 times a game out of a no huddle. They have an Urban Meyer style run game installed and actually run it quite well- in fact they win more games when they're QB goes over 100 yards rushing, than they do when he throws for 300. However- their first game plan is to come out and throw the damn ball all over the field, throwing 3 picks a game.....They'll be up by three scores going into the fourth quarter and they will still throw the ball almost every single down..
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Post by seagull73 on May 23, 2006 18:07:18 GMT -6
I haven't seen any offenses at the high-school level that really THROW the ball to beat you on a consistent basis, year in & year out. I have! There are a lot of schools in Maryland that are winning with the forward pass year in and year out. |
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Post by coachcb on May 23, 2006 18:14:28 GMT -6
I have seen teams that win consistently by throwing the ball, but they also have the ability to wear out the clock in the fourth quarter by running the ball.
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Post by airman on May 23, 2006 19:52:48 GMT -6
one thing I see is a lot of poorly coached spread teams. they think just because they go to the spread the defense is going to be scared.
here is what I see, coaches having no answer for the blitz. heck, they did not talk about the blitz at the clinic I went to. I mean, the defense they will not blitz. would they?
pass protection is the worst thing I have see at badly coached spread teams.
when I see badly coached spread teams, here is what I see from the offensive line.
the tackles will turn their shoulders, instead of kick sliding and keeping them parallel to the l.o.s.
if you as a tackle, turn your shoulders, you are now a whipped dog.
pass protection is all about angles.
another thing I see from poorly coached spread teams is lack of wr discipline as it relates to running routes. instead of breaking the corner down, they cheat and round off their routes.
so the spread gets a a bad name because of uneducated coaches.
at the clinics they diagram vs a cover 3 a lot of the time. I awalys ask to see routes vs cover 1, 4, 5 and 8 man coverages.
another think I see with bad spread teams is this, you cannot pass the ball and only throw twice per week. your qb and wr have to play only one way and they have to throw every day to each other. it developes synergy.
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Post by saintrad on May 23, 2006 22:15:39 GMT -6
exactly as airman said... badly coached schemes give all of us coaches a bad name. The spread is a philosophy just like all the other schemes and not a set of formations and plays. their is a logic to what a true spread team does.
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