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Post by buck42 on Oct 29, 2012 18:19:32 GMT -6
Gentleman,
I have wrestled with this the past few years at different schools. Currently, I am at a smaller school with about 30 varsity players, frankly we can't afford to get someone hurt in practice.
How much contact do you have in practice? I know it varies from day to day and certainly deeper into the season...but I'm looking for some details and logic behind the decisions.
Thx in advance
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Post by CS on Oct 29, 2012 18:27:05 GMT -6
We only have 20 and have contact 3 days a week.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 18:36:55 GMT -6
We just finished up an entire season without ever practicing in full pads once. We went thud in shells Mon.-Wed. and tshirts on Thurs. We are now in the playoffs and made it through the season without a single starter missing a game while our opponents got beat up, though a few guys on scout team got hurt from overzealous starters taking them to the ground in practice anyway.
We are at a school of 1100, but we had less than 40 players on varsity at season's end after 6 guys quit. Of those, only about 33 actually were counted on to play and we had 4-5 kids playing both ways at different times.
We did have issues with concussion symptoms, howevever, which were unrelated to this. Also, our OL pretty much run blocked like crap, but I don't know if that's a side effect of our lack of contact or other things.
Sent from my Desire HD using proboards
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Post by tigercoach11 on Oct 29, 2012 18:40:53 GMT -6
Got 23 on roster an go full pads and full contact twice a week. Mondays are our film, general defensive adjustment, offense on air day. The Tues and Wed are full blown. I know this opinion will differ with different coaches, and if not going full contact works for some guys then by all means DO IT. However with my kids I have backed off one week last year and didn't feel like we were as physical as other weeks. I feel my guys need the contact and tackling each week. Injuries are a part of the game, I feel like you risk them more if the body isn't conditioned for the contact. JMO
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creid
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Post by creid on Oct 29, 2012 18:55:38 GMT -6
We don't go live or wear full pads. Half pads only, we go 3/4 thud for internal run and team. Nobody to ground, no full speed contact. We have not had a kid get a concussion in practice all year. We had 12 guys go to play college football off of last year's team. You can limit contact and be effective.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Oct 29, 2012 19:18:19 GMT -6
You will find people all over the place on this one. I think contact is something that should be very limited, while others think it should be pretty tough everyday, with many in between the two.
I personally like to have as little contact as possible. It's my job to notice when the kids are starting to play with less aggression or not tackling well, then we will adjust practice based on that.
But scrimmaging (the normal daily practice of youth programs) is very very rare for me. We would rather do drills that we can control what we want to accomplish instead of just having people "pretend" its a game.
To coacharnold, I've found that Olinemen block better if they are older and worse if they are younger. AND, if you have a Oline coach that doesn't know what he's doing, then add youth and you've got a mess on your hands. I don't think it has anything much to do with lack of contact in practice. Olinemen run into each other all day anyway.
But most of the time, teams don't run block well because they are young, and don't know what they are doing. You put a bunch of seniors out there, and they will usually push everybody around. You put a bunch of Soph. out there and they usually don't block anybody.
The team I took over this year was TERRIBLE because the coach they had for the previous 2 years didn't know JACK. So, neither did they. The team had tons of contact and were still sorry as dirt. So, no connection there at all.
OJW
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Post by CS on Oct 29, 2012 19:46:15 GMT -6
Got 23 on roster an go full pads and full contact twice a week. Mondays are our film, general defensive adjustment, offense on air day. The Tues and Wed are full blown. I know this opinion will differ with different coaches, and if not going full contact works for some guys then by all means DO IT. However with my kids I have backed off one week last year and didn't feel like we were as physical as other weeks. I feel my guys need the contact and tackling each week. Injuries are a part of the game, I feel like you risk them more if the body isn't conditioned for the contact. JMO This is our exact practice schedule
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Post by mrjvi on Oct 30, 2012 9:41:05 GMT -6
Ours is exactly like tiger and coachsmyly.
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Post by CS on Oct 30, 2012 9:52:22 GMT -6
I think it could also be what type of conference you are in. My conference is all power run and real hard nosed. We only have two teams that pass more than a few times a game and I feel like the kids need that contact to condition their bodies for a beating.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2012 12:52:33 GMT -6
To coacharnold, I've found that Olinemen block better if they are older and worse if they are younger. AND, if you have a Oline coach that doesn't know what he's doing, then add youth and you've got a mess on your hands. I don't think it has anything much to do with lack of contact in practice. Olinemen run into each other all day anyway. But most of the time, teams don't run block well because they are young, and don't know what they are doing. You put a bunch of seniors out there, and they will usually push everybody around. You put a bunch of Soph. out there and they usually don't block anybody. OJW Funny you should say that. Our three worst OL who actually saw playing time were all seniors, who we made due with at G because they were the best we had. We had a Jr. LT who was decent, a pretty weak Jr. C, and a Soph. RT who started out bad but improved to become mediocre as the season went on. Overall they were the weakest unit on the team, made up only of the players that nobody else wanted and expected to execute a bunch of new stuff every week. That was probably the root of our problem far more than the lack of contact, but I have wondered if the lack of full speed contact in practice did affect their utter inability to combo block effectively to LBs or pick up blitzes and stunts. These seniors block about as well as your average midget leaguers. This team used to be Wing-T for decades, before the HC changed to a spread passing offense about 6 years ago because "we don't have any Gs anymore." We have guys who could probably do it, IMO, but we don't play them there for philosophical reasons/players' reluctance. But that rant is totally unrelated to the OP's question. Despite our total lack of full pads in practice, we did hit and shed well on defense, and our backs and receivers ran hard on offense. We also play in a very hard nosed power run conference. 7 of the teams on our schedule based out of the I and wanted to pound it between the tackles with stud TBs, often from double tight and power I sets. Another was a spread-to-run zone team who came averaged about 280 yards a game on the ground. We were 5-3 against these 8 teams. In those 5 wins, we held 4 of them to under single digits in rushing yards. Offensively, we were spread and our QB led us in rushing with around 650 yards and threw for 2000. We had 3 other backs combine for about 900 yards.
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Post by kcbazooka on Oct 30, 2012 13:00:17 GMT -6
we have 30's on roster 9-12 - smallest class in our state. We seldom go full contact in scrimmage time -- one reason is to avoid injuries - but just as relevant is our scout team is very weak and if we went full go in scrimmage the JV backs would get killed and it would do our varsity little good.
Pur defense did not play well this year but as another coach already mentioned - it was probably more because we had three freshmen starting rather than our lack of contact during the week.
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Post by op4shadow on Oct 30, 2012 19:38:46 GMT -6
To coacharnold, I've found that Olinemen block better if they are older and worse if they are younger. AND, if you have a Oline coach that doesn't know what he's doing, then add youth and you've got a mess on your hands. I don't think it has anything much to do with lack of contact in practice. Olinemen run into each other all day anyway. But most of the time, teams don't run block well because they are young, and don't know what they are doing. You put a bunch of seniors out there, and they will usually push everybody around. You put a bunch of Soph. out there and they usually don't block anybody. OJW Funny you should say that. Our three worst OL who actually saw playing time were all seniors, who we made due with at G because they were the best we had. We had a Jr. LT who was decent, a pretty weak Jr. C, and a Soph. RT who started out bad but improved to become mediocre as the season went on. Overall they were the weakest unit on the team, made up only of the players that nobody else wanted and expected to execute a bunch of new stuff every week. That was probably the root of our problem far more than the lack of contact, but I have wondered if the lack of full speed contact in practice did affect their utter inability to combo block effectively to LBs or pick up blitzes and stunts. These seniors block about as well as your average midget leaguers. This team used to be Wing-T for decades, before the HC changed to a spread passing offense about 6 years ago because "we don't have any Gs anymore." We have guys who could probably do it, IMO, but we don't play them there for philosophical reasons/players' reluctance. But that rant is totally unrelated to the OP's question. Despite our total lack of full pads in practice, we did hit and shed well on defense, and our backs and receivers ran hard on offense. We also play in a very hard nosed power run conference. 7 of the teams on our schedule based out of the I and wanted to pound it between the tackles with stud TBs, often from double tight and power I sets. Another was a spread-to-run zone team who came averaged about 280 yards a game on the ground. We were 5-3 against these 8 teams. In those 5 wins, we held 4 of them to under single digits in rushing yards. Offensively, we were spread and our QB led us in rushing with around 650 yards and threw for 2000. We had 3 other backs combine for about 900 yards. i disagree with 90% of this...respectfully of course. we have several underclassman that do an excellent job. one of our best perimiter blockers is a freshman, and he is out doing most of our seniors. i think there is some merit to what you are saying, but it all comes back to buy in from the players. if you have a freshman make 90% of your workouts, and you coach your butt off, there is no reason he can't be successful. we are of the mindset that seniors shouldnt start just because they are seniors. if an under classman is close to a senior, the underclassman gets the job until he loses it, and they usually don't lose it. now of course, these underclassman have to have to be physically capable of doing the job, i'm not saying that a 120 lb freshman can handle an olb on the perimiter...the only thing you have against the younger guy is experience. but that's the beautiful thing about playing him early. by the time he's a senior...look out. get 4-5 of those 2-3 year starters as seniors, now you have a heck of a season on your hands
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Post by coachweav88 on Nov 1, 2012 6:44:22 GMT -6
I have found that tackling improves not when you increase contact in practice, but when you work on proper run fits and angles to the ball. Tackling is a TEAM thing not just and individual skill. Most of the missed tackles I see are due to the athlete being out of position because he either took a poor angle to the ball or there was a breakdown somewhere else on the defense.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 1, 2012 7:19:42 GMT -6
I have found that tackling improves not when you increase contact in practice, but when you work on proper run fits and angles to the ball. Tackling is a TEAM thing not just and individual skill. Most of the missed tackles I see are due to the athlete being out of position because he either took a poor angle to the ball or there was a breakdown somewhere else on the defense. AMEN!!!!!!!!!
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Post by tigercoach11 on Nov 1, 2012 9:10:14 GMT -6
I have found that tackling improves not when you increase contact in practice, but when you work on proper run fits and angles to the ball. Tackling is a TEAM thing not just and individual skill. Most of the missed tackles I see are due to the athlete being out of position because he either took a poor angle to the ball or there was a breakdown somewhere else on the defense. I fully agree with this! However, when dealing with the kids I have now I found that when the full speed aspect was missing from the tackling they did not piece it together like it should be. We take tackling in stages and do form tackling everyday and run fits and pursuit. When we first started the approach we take now some of our best tacklers were "thinking" too much about the tackle...So we always incorporate the lesser contact teaching part of tackling first in practice then go live and carefully watch how they put it all together. Again, this is a period of practice we do everyday and it is about 15 minutes long. Even when we are doing full contact periods we keep a quick whistle on things, but, we always make sure they get there full speed and wrap up. Then if the whistle blows they let it go, if the whistle doesnt blow fast enough or they get there and end up going to the ground full speed then its ok too.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 1, 2012 9:52:03 GMT -6
I am not sure full speed and full practices don't make you WORSE tacklers. Don't get me wrong, we go full speed during spring and summer and about once a week early in the season.
But what happens is your dline just destroys the scout oline and makes everyone look great. You can take improper angles and make a 2 yard loss in practice. And then that comes back to haunt you in games.
Of course this isn't always true - just an observation.
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Post by tigercoach11 on Nov 1, 2012 10:17:29 GMT -6
I am not sure full speed and full practices don't make you WORSE tacklers. Don't get me wrong, we go full speed during spring and summer and about once a week early in the season. But what happens is your dline just destroys the scout oline and makes everyone look great. You can take improper angles and make a 2 yard loss in practice. And then that comes back to haunt you in games. Of course this isn't always true - just an observation. I also agree with this. With 23 on roster we rarely find any scout team players that will give us a good look. We have gone to a 1/2 line approach full time and I do not believe we have done full live team D in prob 5 weeks. We always keep our ILB's in there then 1/2 line the rest with 1/2 the secondary. Try and keep ones on ones as much as possible. during INDY (which is usually group bc of lack of staff) it will change depending on what we are seeing that week. ie. this week we are playing an option team so DE's came with the LB's and secondary...
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Post by knight9299 on Nov 1, 2012 14:18:48 GMT -6
I have found that tackling improves not when you increase contact in practice, but when you work on proper run fits and angles to the ball. Tackling is a TEAM thing not just and individual skill. Most of the missed tackles I see are due to the athlete being out of position because he either took a poor angle to the ball or there was a breakdown somewhere else on the defense. AMEN!!!!!!!!! Second that Amen.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Nov 1, 2012 21:24:21 GMT -6
I guess that we all talk "contact" different ways. When I say "contact" I'm not talking about the Olinemen working on combo blocks and doubles, I'm talking about scrimmage and "to the ground" tackling. I guess I should have made myself clearer there-To me "contact" is not a thud tackle, and not Olinemen in contact with Defensive linemen or one another. Linemen need to work contact a lot. This may be why your team didnt' block well, if they are not blocking during the week, it's gonna' be tough to do it in a game.
To me, when you asked about "limiting contact" that meant "to the ground" tackling in a scrimmage setting. I think that "To the ground" tackling should be rare once the season gets going.
Scout team gets "thud" and not even that when we are showing the plays the 1st day. Why in the world would anyone beat up their scout team? We want the plays shown and the defense to recongnize the plays, not show how tough they are and beat up on a 3rd string guy.
Save all that for drills, or the rare scrimmage.
Not sure what team is on this vid, but here's a great drill that I learned from FSU
Sorry for not being clear on this. OJW
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Post by mariner42 on Nov 1, 2012 23:38:02 GMT -6
One of my favorites, OJW.
To me, if you're not to-the-ground tackling, then you need to make certain that you are teaching them what it means to go "thud" tempo or whatever you call it. Limiting contact doesn't make you soft if you don't let it, but you do need to be vigilant and ready to ramp things up if you're playing soft.
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Post by coachweav88 on Nov 2, 2012 5:20:24 GMT -6
I agree "thud" is the speed of most of my practices. Live blocking, no tackling to the ground.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 2, 2012 7:54:16 GMT -6
I guess that we all talk "contact" different ways. When I say "contact" I'm not talking about the Olinemen working on combo blocks and doubles, I'm talking about scrimmage and "to the ground" tackling. I guess I should have made myself clearer there-To me "contact" is not a thud tackle, and not Olinemen in contact with Defensive linemen or one another. Linemen need to work contact a lot. This may be why your team didnt' block well, if they are not blocking during the week, it's gonna' be tough to do it in a game. To me, when you asked about "limiting contact" that meant "to the ground" tackling in a scrimmage setting. I think that "To the ground" tackling should be rare once the season gets going. Scout team gets "thud" and not even that when we are showing the plays the 1st day. Why in the world would anyone beat up their scout team? We want the plays shown and the defense to recongnize the plays, not show how tough they are and beat up on a 3rd string guy. Save all that for drills, or the rare scrimmage. Not sure what team is on this vid, but here's a great drill that I learned from FSU Sorry for not being clear on this. OJW What a great drill - really fun to watch. My only problem or question is that what are the defenders being asked to do? Just shed and make the tackle? Because it sure doesn't look like anyone has gaps or force.
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Post by coachmikeg on Nov 2, 2012 8:27:24 GMT -6
I guess that we all talk "contact" different ways. When I say "contact" I'm not talking about the Olinemen working on combo blocks and doubles, I'm talking about scrimmage and "to the ground" tackling. I guess I should have made myself clearer there-To me "contact" is not a thud tackle, and not Olinemen in contact with Defensive linemen or one another. Linemen need to work contact a lot. This may be why your team didnt' block well, if they are not blocking during the week, it's gonna' be tough to do it in a game. To me, when you asked about "limiting contact" that meant "to the ground" tackling in a scrimmage setting. I think that "To the ground" tackling should be rare once the season gets going. Scout team gets "thud" and not even that when we are showing the plays the 1st day. Why in the world would anyone beat up their scout team? We want the plays shown and the defense to recongnize the plays, not show how tough they are and beat up on a 3rd string guy. Save all that for drills, or the rare scrimmage. Not sure what team is on this vid, but here's a great drill that I learned from FSU Sorry for not being clear on this. OJW What a great drill - really fun to watch. My only problem or question is that what are the defenders being asked to do? Just shed and make the tackle? Because it sure doesn't look like anyone has gaps or force. We do this drill. Shed and "tackle". We do a similar drill where the back runs outside the cones and the defenders shed and pursue. It allows us to work all groups at once on individual techniques. Our linemen go full contact a LOT. Backs almost never get taken to the ground - even in the above drill - we have quick whistles. The important thing is the tackling form in a live situation.
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