Coach H
Sophomore Member
Posts: 146
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Post by Coach H on Oct 2, 2012 8:23:47 GMT -6
Coaches,
We have been blessed with a unique situation here this year.
Situation Our district isn't very good at all. Our team is very talented. We will play tough teams in the playoff.
Question: When do you pull your players? How much will this hurt us in the playoffs?
Thanks,
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Post by blb on Oct 2, 2012 8:29:17 GMT -6
My rule of thumb is Running Clock ("Mercy Rule") or one team ahead by three scores in 4th Quarter.
Very tough to predict how it would affect you in playoffs.
How would it affect Team if you left starters in and lost one or more to injuries?
Plus kids that practice Scout teams all week deserve their reward when possible, too.
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Coach H
Sophomore Member
Posts: 146
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Post by Coach H on Oct 2, 2012 9:12:07 GMT -6
I have been around the block but I have never been in a situation like this one. Thank you for your advice.
Coach H.
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Post by fantom on Oct 2, 2012 9:27:30 GMT -6
Coaches, We have been blessed with a unique situation here this year. SituationOur district isn't very good at all. Our team is very talented. We will play tough teams in the playoff. Question: When do you pull your players? How much will this hurt us in the playoffs? Thanks, We had a season like this a few years ago. We had a running clock in every regular season game but knew that it wouldn't be that way in the playoffs. We were concerned that players wouldn't be conditioned physically and mentally to play a whole football game. Because of that, in some games late in the year, we kept the starters in deep into the fourth quarter. We'd pull our QB and TB a little earlier but not really early. Injuries are always a concern but we'd seen it happen to others- teams with great regular seasons folding in the playoffs possibly because the kids weren't used to playing a whole football game.
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Post by fbs on Oct 2, 2012 9:31:42 GMT -6
I would never pull my starters until three quarters have been played, no matter the score. If you're happy with their effort take them out. If you don't feel like they played well keep them in. Remember, you are preparing your kids to play full games in week 11, so too bad if the other team's feelings get hurt. None of it does you any good if your kids aren't prepared to play 4 quarters of football. I wouldn't worry about the injuries.
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Post by mariettablue on Oct 2, 2012 9:46:55 GMT -6
Injuries are always a concern but I feel like you should at least use the game to get your players weaker areas some work. I like to mix in my backs that are not as fast or strong with the better backs as lead blockers. Let these guys run with the starters some. If I go with the second Offense I use my starting backfield on the line to block. I believe there are always areas that can be worked on. You can keep your starting line and run plays to see how well they block for an average rb and not your star. This will show if they hold their blocks long enough or if the star just hits the hole faster.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 2, 2012 9:48:16 GMT -6
Playing entire games vs dog crap competition does nothing but build false courage and bad technique. Once the game is decided put in the deuce Cats and even the Tri-Kitties if necessary. Don't kid yourself thinking it is OK to pummel someone just because you are concerned with the starters not getting enough PT (AKA padded STATS!!!)
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Post by wingtol on Oct 2, 2012 9:55:13 GMT -6
Have been in this situation several times before. We usually use the rule of first half anything goes. We are gonna try and score as much as we can in the first half. Usually starters begin the 3rd quarter play a few series. Then we start to sub. Hopefully the other team sees this and starts to sub as well, some games we have taken a time out and sent a new 11 on the field so everyone knows what's going on. We have had other teams do that as well to throw up the white flag. Ya just have to kind of play it game by game.
As far as being worried about playoffs and playing a whole game, we have really never had that problem. If your guys are that good then they will be ready. Plus in a game where your killin a team and your starters are in do you hit the point of diminishing returns? Teams give up believe it or not so what good is it to play your starters late in a game when the other team has quit. That gives you nothing. Also look at it this way, your guys should be fresher than the other teams who may play more full games in a season!
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Post by fantom on Oct 2, 2012 9:55:33 GMT -6
Playing entire games vs dog crap competition does nothing but build false courage and bad technique. Once the game is decided put in the deuce Cats and even the Tri-Kitties if necessary. Don't kid yourself thinking it is OK to pummel someone just because you are concerned with the starters not getting enough PT (AKA padded STATS!!!) I respectfully disagree. I don't think that you should keep them in every week but a couple of times you have to remind them what it feels like to play for close to a full football game.
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Post by fantom on Oct 2, 2012 9:56:57 GMT -6
Injuries are always a concern but I feel like you should at least use the game to get your players weaker areas some work. I like to mix in my backs that are not as fast or strong with the better backs as lead blockers. Let these guys run with the starters some. If I go with the second Offense I use my starting backfield on the line to block. I believe there are always areas that can be worked on. You can keep your starting line and run plays to see how well they block for an average rb and not your star. This will show if they hold their blocks long enough or if the star just hits the hole faster. For the most part in HS varsity football playing the starting TB at guard isn't an option.
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Post by blb on Oct 2, 2012 10:00:44 GMT -6
Another consideration is, has the other guy surrendered?
Not going to put my 2s in so he can blitz the crap out of them and build up his QB-Receiver's stats.
Otherwise, we "play the game deciders until the game is decided."
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Post by fantom on Oct 2, 2012 10:14:43 GMT -6
Another consideration is, has the other guy surrendered? Not going to put my 2s in so he can blitz the crap out of them and build up his QB-Receiver's stats. Otherwise, we "play the game deciders until the game is decided." And that's a factor. During that great season (and let me make sure that that year was unique. It isn't like that every year) nobody that we played "surrendered". Never saw anybody else's seconds even when we got down to thirds and JVs.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 2, 2012 10:29:23 GMT -6
How does romping up and down the field against weak or no competition remind them of anything related to a REAL football game?
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Post by unc31 on Oct 2, 2012 10:31:37 GMT -6
I do not agree with the idea of taking my starers out if the opponent (who is losing) takes theirs out. I want my backups to play against the best the other team has to offer so I can see if they can actually play or not with the opponents best onb the field. Furthermore, why in the heck should the losing team Quit??!! I would not respect a team that just threw in the towel and did not keep fighting. Why would any self respecting coach teach his kids to concede?
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Post by blb on Oct 2, 2012 10:44:55 GMT -6
Furthermore, why in the heck should the losing team Quit??!! I would not respect a team that just threw in the towel and did not keep fighting. Why would any self respecting coach teach his kids to concede? You obviously missed the point. I didn't say "quit." It means acknowledge that the game has been decided and it's time for both of us to substitute. Additionally - if you're behind in a game that you have no chance of winning (running clock or down three scores in 4th Quarter), you're going to leave your starters in in a vain attempt to win an unwinnable game? What about building depth or getting experience for your younger players? Giving Scout team players motivation to practice hard during the week? If you do not substitute in situations such as that you will have extremely poor morale. You will have kids who will come to feel they are not good enough to play even in a game that is out of reach. The quality of your practices and participation (numbers) will suffer. Your bravado of "keep fighting" is misguided.
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Post by wingtol on Oct 2, 2012 10:56:59 GMT -6
Furthermore, why in the heck should the losing team Quit??!! I would not respect a team that just threw in the towel and did not keep fighting. Why would any self respecting coach teach his kids to concede? You obviously missed the point. I didn't say "quit." It means acknowledge that the game has been decided and it's time for both of us to substitute. Additionally - if you're behind in a game that you have no chance of winning (running clock or down three scores in 4th Quarter), you're going to leave your starters in in a vain attempt to win an unwinnable game? What about building depth or getting experience for your younger players? Giving Scout team players motivation to practice hard during the week? If you do not substitute in situations such as that you will have extremely poor morale. Your bravado of "keep fighting" is misguided. This. Not to mention what motivation does it give to kids 12-whatever your roster size is. If you play the same 11 in all situations why should anyone else stay on the team. You gotta throw kids a bone. Nothing like seeing the look on a scout team kids face when he scores or does something great and the whole team is going nuts for him.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 2, 2012 10:58:03 GMT -6
It is not quitting, when you respect the other team and put in your backups to let them all play in a game that has been decided and need not go on with the onslaught. Now the backups should play full on and whatever happens is football.
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Post by wybulldogs on Oct 2, 2012 11:00:56 GMT -6
Furthermore, why in the heck should the losing team Quit??!! I would not respect a team that just threw in the towel and did not keep fighting. Why would any self respecting coach teach his kids to concede? You obviously missed the point. I didn't say "quit." It means acknowledge that the game has been decided and it's time for both of us to substitute. Additionally - if you're behind in a game that you have no chance of winning (running clock or down three scores in 4th Quarter), you're going to leave your starters in in a vain attempt to win an unwinnable game? What about building depth or getting experience for your younger players? Giving Scout team players motivation to practice hard during the week? If you do not substitute in situations such as that you will have extremely poor morale. You will have kids who will come to feel they are not good enough to play even in a game that is out of reach. The quality of your practices and participation (numbers) will suffer. Your bravado of "keep fighting" is misguided. Agreed. If the game is out of reach, get the starters out. Live to fight another day, get them out so you're not risking injury. Get your depth some playing time as they'll be going up against the depth of the other team. You only look like a fool if you leave your starters in against the other team's depth. I've seen it a few times where we have put our depth in only to have them beat up on the other team's exhausted starters. That doesn't look good at all.
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Post by fantom on Oct 2, 2012 11:08:43 GMT -6
How does romping up and down the field against weak or no competition remind them of anything related to a REAL football game? Playing at game speed is different from practice speed. Again, I'm not talking about a situation where there's an occasional blowout. I'm talking about a season where you're going into the playoffs on a string of blowouts. You can't get ready for the playoffs with starters who don't know what it feels like to play close to a full game at full game speed. Padding stats has nothing to do with it.
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Oct 2, 2012 11:24:47 GMT -6
How does romping up and down the field against weak or no competition remind them of anything related to a REAL football game? Playing at game speed is different from practice speed. Again, I'm not talking about a situation where there's an occasional blowout. I'm talking about a season where you're going into the playoffs on a string of blowouts. You can't get ready for the playoffs with starters who don't know what it feels like to play close to a full game at full game speed. Padding stats has nothing to do with it. I respectfully disagree as well. If you are blowing a team out, that is not playing a full game like they will see in the playoffs. Condition more at practice, find ways to make practice more up tempo, but you get nothing out of running up the score on less talented players. Plus you embarrass 15-18 year old kids on the other side of the field. I don't want to get in to the "its their job to stop me" debate, but I have been on both sides of very lopsided losses. Its not fair to your backups/JV kids and its certainly not the right thing to do for those young men on the other side of the field. Win. Win convincingly. Then back off.
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Post by blb on Oct 2, 2012 11:37:14 GMT -6
I have always felt that as HS coaches we are obligated to consider the team (kids especially) on the other side of the field in blowout situations.
They have to go to practice the next Monday, too.
Having said that our only obligation is to substitute. We are going to keep running our Offense to give our backups as much experience as possible.
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Post by fantom on Oct 2, 2012 11:48:34 GMT -6
Playing at game speed is different from practice speed. Again, I'm not talking about a situation where there's an occasional blowout. I'm talking about a season where you're going into the playoffs on a string of blowouts. You can't get ready for the playoffs with starters who don't know what it feels like to play close to a full game at full game speed. Padding stats has nothing to do with it. I respectfully disagree as well. If you are blowing a team out, that is not playing a full game like they will see in the playoffs. Condition more at practice, find ways to make practice more up tempo, but you get nothing out of running up the score on less talented players. Plus you embarrass 15-18 year old kids on the other side of the field. I don't want to get in to the "its their job to stop me" debate, but I have been on both sides of very lopsided losses. Its not fair to your backups/JV kids and its certainly not the right thing to do for those young men on the other side of the field. Win. Win convincingly. Then back off. Keep in mind that I was talking specifically to the OP because I've been in his situation. When you have a lot of blowouts in a row you do need to keep the starters sharp by letting them play deep in the game once or twice. Does it really make a difference in the playoffs? Don't know and don't want to find out the hard way.
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Post by hanagin on Oct 2, 2012 12:43:43 GMT -6
My senior year it was a bit like this situation. If we mercy ruled someone or were on our way there, coach would normally start to yank starters immediately. He always did so selectively, so that even in the 4th quarter some starters would still be on the field. Typically, the QB/HBs were first to sit. Then they'd phase out the others, normally leaving at least one starting O-linemen in the entire game (the strong tackle, which was key to the system) and typically 1-3 others. He'd often leave the MLB in on defense, too, even after most of the starters were out. Admittedly, this was a smaller school without the bodies to go wholesale second string, but I always liked the idea of leaving some leaders on the field to help out the backups.
In the end, I don't feel it made much difference either way.
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Post by mariettablue on Oct 2, 2012 14:51:34 GMT -6
Injuries are always a concern but I feel like you should at least use the game to get your players weaker areas some work. I like to mix in my backs that are not as fast or strong with the better backs as lead blockers. Let these guys run with the starters some. If I go with the second Offense I use my starting backfield on the line to block. I believe there are always areas that can be worked on. You can keep your starting line and run plays to see how well they block for an average rb and not your star. This will show if they hold their blocks long enough or if the star just hits the hole faster. For the most part in HS varsity football playing the starting TB at guard isn't an option. I definitely know that in HS you won't do that but I was under the impression he meant youth football because of the difference in talent between schools is so vast. Where I'm from the talent is heavy and every game can be an upset.
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Post by tribepride on Oct 3, 2012 13:19:28 GMT -6
We are in the same boat as Coach H. We will pull starters in the second quarter if necessary.(QB/RB...flexbone team) We are concerned about injuries when the game is out of hand. We are also concerned about conditioning and spend extra time in practice running the first group so that they are in shape come playoff time.
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Post by paulfrantz on Oct 3, 2012 15:33:43 GMT -6
I pull my starters often in the middle of the third. It's not a mass exodus. I pull a couple at a time until the 2nds are in. In one game this year, I had the whole 2nd team in to start the second half. It's several things for me. I never try to kick a "downed " opponent, my ego doesn't need to be stroked. My seconds work hard in practice and deserve as much playing time as I can give them, let's face it if one of my starters go down their next, GET THEM READY. No offense, but if you starters aren't ready to mentally or conditionally play a full game, it's the coaches fault. It doesn't take playing a full game to be ready to play a full game. I'm sure we've all had tough games at the beginning of the year. You had them ready for that one didn't you?
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Post by mariner42 on Oct 3, 2012 16:28:48 GMT -6
One thing to consider is your relationship to the other team's coach, too. There's guys that I have great relationships with and I know will be OK with me leaving the 1s in a bit long if I can explain/rationalize it to them post game. On the flip side, there's guys that I know hate my guts for something that happened back when I was in HS and would be furious if they felt we played the starters too late in the game.
I'm not one to worry too much about what other people's perspective on me/our team is, but if I can avoid unnecessary drama or hostility, I will. Not at the expense of our season or making sure we're ready for what's to come, though.
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Post by fantom on Oct 3, 2012 17:50:08 GMT -6
It doesn't take playing a full game to be ready to play a full game. I'm sure we've all had tough games at the beginning of the year. You had them ready for that one didn't you? That's the thing. It doesn't sound like the OP has had many tough games. We didn't that year. If that's the case you do need to have the players get used to playing deep into games. I want to make it clear that I'm not talking about a case where there's an occasional blowout. In most of them the starterswere out early, often very early. Later in the year, though, we knew that we had to get them ready to play a full, tough game. It sounds like that's the situation that the OP is in and I believe that he'd be right to do the same thing.
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Post by wybulldogs on Oct 3, 2012 20:03:21 GMT -6
I had 20 kids dressed today, only 3 are running backs. I have a few one way players. After I got up today I subbed in what I had, and went to a simple running game. The game ended 43-20 with a win. I even went as far as calling the same play multiple times, and took a knee to end the game, when we could have punched it in for a final score.
The opposing coaches refused to shake my hand after the game. Now 2 years ago they blew my team out of the water by 35+ points and had no problem piling it on. Today they didn't like that feeling. The big difference was that 2 years ago, I was man enough to meet them in the middle and shake their hands.
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Post by paulfrantz on Oct 4, 2012 10:44:52 GMT -6
fantom, I understand he hasn't had any hard games. The point I was trying to make is you have to have your starters ready for the first game, mentally, physically, and conditioning wise without playing "game speed". So why can't a coach do that for the play offs? I don't want to argue with anyone, I'm just trying to express my opinion with how I do it. I can get them game ready, I can't heal an injury that happens in a game that is already in hand. Coaches have different philosophies, that's what makes this game so interesting, this just happens to be mine.
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