Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2012 5:03:11 GMT -6
I know, sounds funny right. Before you slap your monitor, hear me out, the title was just meant to be "catchy". I have been thinking about posting this for a while, and even thought it might be a better blog post, but I want to hear from folks, not post my opinion and then get a bunch of emails about it. I want to see the posts on here, so here goes!
Ok, I have been at a variety of places and situations and had varying degress of success. For instance I've been apart of 2 complete overhauls and rejuvination of programs, one as a coordinator, the other as a HC. I've been a part of a juggernaut as an assistant coach, and then my last high school gig was in a complete failed attempt to turn a struggling program around (3 wins in 3 years) as a coordinator.
Looking back through it all I'm trying to pick through the evidence and look at what the successes had and the failures didn't have, and it's astounding that there were so many similarities and yet some glaring differences. For instance at my last HS venue we had some talent, just not enough of it, yet were forced to play a difficult schedule which wore the kids down. At the juggernaut we had about the same amount of talent, but the only tough games came in our district schedule and the playoffs. The turnaround programs had very little talent, but kids that believed in anyone who cared for them and admins. that went out of their way to see the goal through.
What I'm getting at, is you hear the cliches all the time "Success is when talent meets coaching". However, I don't always think this to be true. I've coached at places that had dam good talent and good coaching, but still didn't succeed (and even sometimes struggled) I'm probably rambling at this point, but look at this way. Last year Alabama dominated college football, and they were simply better than everybody and were coached better. I don't think many would argue that point. However, look back to when Ohio State beat Miami to win the NC (2001 maybe?). That OSU team won and won ugly, and did it with decent players, but nowhere near as dominating? Same thing could be said of the Trent Dilfer led Baltimore Ravens. I mean we all know in the NFL the QB is everything and the Ravens win a Super Bowl with a guy who couldn't hit the ocean if he were standing on a pier!
I want to see what ingredients you think go into being successful. I want to hear whether you think it's possible to assemble winners, or there has to be some luck involved. I'm leaning towards a mix of both, I think there has to be coaching, and talent, but there's also got to be some behind the scenes stuff such as a good parent and admin. support, as well as team and coaching staff chemistry. What say you folks?
Duece
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Post by lochness on Sept 21, 2012 5:37:58 GMT -6
I've accepted one simple truth on this topic over the years...and the deciding factor is LEADERSHIP.
Every year we've had the ingerdients to win (weight room, talent, coaching, schedule, etc) and haven't been successful, it's because we've had internal issues such as discipline issues, chemistry, etc. That's a direct result of having weak leadership.
Every year we've had success, even when the deck may be stacked a little, we've had great leadership. No disciplinary issues, no chemistry issues, no in-fighting, etc.
Unfortunately, "leadership" is a tough aspect to control. You can groom kids, you can have leadership meetings, you can work with them on goal setting, action planning, values, confidence, etc....but if they don't have it, they don't have it.
Last three years for us...we had great leaders who played with passion and committment (and demanded the same from everyone else), and we were very successful. This season, we have weak leaders (good kids, tough players, but not LEADERS) and we're struggling in every aspect of our game because there's no peer-to-peer accountability. We can push and correct and discipline and teach all we want...but that's not as powerful as when a peer you respect the h3ll out of tells you to get your $hit together. We don't have that. And, with great consistency, in years we haven't had it...we've been a weak team.
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Post by whitneymr1 on Sept 21, 2012 6:47:41 GMT -6
When you guys are in a turn-around situation, how long does it take typically? Where did you start the change? Would you do it differently?
I am currently at a school with a weak details guy at Head Coach. To his credit, he lets the more experienced coaches (and true football guys) run the football aspect. He deals with the parents, paperwork, etc... and the rest of us get to coach pure football. It is nice to have a HC with no ego, just enjoying the game. The downside of this is that he is poor at instilling discipline and accountability. He will often say, "you're late, that will be extra at the end of the day" and they promptly forget about it or later excuse it. I feel like this is dramatically slowing down the culture change.
With all that being said, this is his fourth year (largely un-productive, but one play-off birth) and we are on the last group of kids that were under the old head coach. Our younger programs have been very successful and our juniors and sophomores are the best talent on the team.
Is this the average amount of time that it takes? What could we do differently?
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. As far as science of winning, at 28 years old, I have not been a part of a winning varsity season as a coach, so I have yet to know what characteristics those teams have. Losing teams seem to always struggle with leadership and a "me first" attitude. In conjunction with that, there always seems to a poor weightroom attendance. At my first coaching job, our JV's and 9th grade team where consistently above .500, but our varsity was 1 or 2 wins a year. Which to me was a indication of what teams lifted and what teams did not.
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Sept 21, 2012 6:52:04 GMT -6
Coach,
For what it is worth I have been a part of a couple of turn arounds as a player and one as a coach. The difference to me is the coaches selling the vision of the program 24/7/365 until you have one group with a little talent and alot of B@LLS to go out and decide that it will be different.
Example, as a player, we were 0-7 and the HC was about to get fired. We were playing alot of young kids and a group of sophomores had alot of talent (I was a 9th grader). We finished that year 3-7 and had a great off-season because those Soph. kids were tired of losing and held EVERYONE accountable. The next year we made the playoffs...then again the next year. By that time I was a senior and it had become an expectation that people show up and work hard. The coaches were the same, the message was the same, but the peer expectations were different.
Just my 2 cents...
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kyle
Sophomore Member
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Post by kyle on Sept 21, 2012 7:43:06 GMT -6
A lot of people have been saying that players need to hold themselves accountable, but how do you guys achieve that?
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Post by davishfc on Sept 21, 2012 8:19:11 GMT -6
For what it is worth I have been a part of a couple of turn arounds as a player and one as a coach. The difference to me is the coaches selling the vision of the program 24/7/365 until you have one group with a little talent and alot of B@LLS to go out and decide that it will be different. Well played Coach. I completely agree with you. It's vitally important to constantly and eloquently communicate the vision for the program and the philosophy for getting there. If you build it, they will come. No guarantee of when but success will follow. Also, success is defined differently based on a program's history as well as current state. |
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z
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Post by z on Sept 21, 2012 8:48:13 GMT -6
Discipline from top to bottom. Whether its the coaches disciplining the players, or the players holding EVERYONE accountable. When those 2 dynamics come together, the WINNING will come. People (some kids and some parents), want strictly for themselves (that is the world that we live in). Being on a team encompasses EVERYONE, from the stud D1 guy to the guy that just wants to be a part. You have got to care for each other! That is the investment in other humans! People are either afraid to do it nowadays, or, don't know how to do it! It is all about UMBUNTU (Doc Rivers of the Boston Celtics preaches it with that team, and led me to look it up and research it). It basically says, "how can I be successful, if those who are with me are not successful? How can I be happy when my comrade is not?
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Post by mrjvi on Sept 21, 2012 9:59:23 GMT -6
Kids are far too forgiving of each other. Not that I want major fights in practice but when we have some that happen because someone tries to get another to stop complaining and do "their part" we have better teams, regardless of the talent. They might all be on the same page and not have fights some years but when things have been down, "accountability fights" seem to get our teams on track.
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kyle
Sophomore Member
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Post by kyle on Sept 21, 2012 10:29:56 GMT -6
Kids are far too forgiving of each other. Not that I want major fights in practice but when we have some that happen because someone tries to get another to stop complaining and do "their part" we have better teams, regardless of the talent. They might all be on the same page and not have fights some years but when things have been down, "accountability fights" seem to get our teams on track. What's an accountability fight? |
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Post by coachklee on Sept 21, 2012 11:10:59 GMT -6
I think it all comes down to a great group of hard working kids that believe in each other...the HC and coaching staff influences this, but a turn around happens when enough individuals decide to start playing for each other.
The high school that I played at was struggling as I entered my 9th grade year (3-6, 2-7 the previous 2 seasons). The program continued to struggle when I was a freshman (1-8) and when I played varsity as a sophomore (1-8). Likewise, the other sports programs were struggling too (I think the Varsity basketball team had a 1 win season during the same time period).
There was a coaching change in the football program going into my junior year. The new HC brought a ton of enthusiasm and was surrouned by outstanding assistants (I've learned about this in the 10 years since high school). We had a great turn around going 7-4, won a play-off game for the 1st time in school history, and also won 2 regular season games we should have had no business competing in. While the HC change played a role, the overall group of us Juniors and the Seniors were determined to improve which meant more work during the off-season and greater focus at practice. I really think that regardless of who the new HC was, we would have had the same break through because we were a special group of players coming through. I really think the HC caught lightning in a bottle so to speak...most turn arounds are simply not that easy and are ultimately up to the players to complete.
A few side notes about leadership effecting program success:
Unfortunately, some of that senior leadership was hard to replace and the team chemistry was a bit different the next season...we still went 6-4 and beat the reigning conference champs that hadn't been beat in 7 years, but followed that game up by losing a game we shouldn't have lost...while not a terrible season, it felt like we under achieved compared to the previous year. I'm not sure why, but as Seniors, we didn't have the same team chemistry. I think like others said, leadership was the difference from 1 season to the next. When I look back on things from a coaching perspective, the only thing that I can identify is that myself and the other senior captains had always been followers of the previous class and failed to have great leadership.
A similar pattern happened with my brother who was just 2 years younger. The year after I graduated, the seniors on his team were the clear leaders and they made a run to the state semi-finals. The following season when he was a senior there was once again a bit of a leadership gap and while the team did quite well, he also feels like they under achieved (didn't help that they ended up with a 2nd round district championship game against the eventual state champion).
So like others have said, it all comes down to putting together a group that will "BELIEVE" or as others say "Buy In". I think we can greatly influence that as coaches by empowering leaders within that group. However, there is only so much that a coach can do to get 16-17 year old teenagers to develop into the TRUE leaders we all know we want them to become. I'm beginning to believe that getting a program turned around and competing can be very systematic...unfortunately the science of getting a program over the hump is perhaps controlled less by the coaches than we want it to be?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2012 11:26:08 GMT -6
I agree that "peer pressure" and accountability are huge when building success. To help with the accountability, we base our conditioning on events in practice. For example, as our DC, I assign 6 gassers to our defense before our team period of 20 scout plays. The only ways for the defense to remove a gasser is to (1) have all 11 players execute their reads and jobs PERFECTLY or (2) get a turnover. Gassers go up and down during the drill (up for bad effort, missed tackles, LOAF's, etc). This has made our defense 110% better in practice. Now, a DE's lazy mental or physical play costs the free safety, corner, LB's, etc something tangible in practice: extra conditioning. So, we preach "I can count on you: you can count on me". This has worked so well that I am putting 10 gassers on our game tonight and will grade it by the same criteria on film. We will run our gassers on Monday's practice! Not saying this is perfect, but it has cut down on complaining, excuses, etc b/c they have to have accountability for each other no matter what.
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 21, 2012 11:50:52 GMT -6
I agree that "peer pressure" and accountability are huge when building success. To help with the accountability, we base our conditioning on events in practice. For example, as our DC, I assign 6 gassers to our defense before our team period of 20 scout plays. The only ways for the defense to remove a gasser is to (1) have all 11 players execute their reads and jobs PERFECTLY or (2) get a turnover. Gassers go up and down during the drill (up for bad effort, missed tackles, LOAF's, etc). This has made our defense 110% better in practice. Now, a DE's lazy mental or physical play costs the free safety, corner, LB's, etc something tangible in practice: extra conditioning. So, we preach "I can count on you: you can count on me". This has worked so well that I am putting 10 gassers on our game tonight and will grade it by the same criteria on film. We will run our gassers on Monday's practice! Not saying this is perfect, but it has cut down on complaining, excuses, etc b/c they have to have accountability for each other no matter what. ahhh, chinese collective punishment. Shihuangdi would be proud. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2012 12:02:22 GMT -6
I've accepted one simple truth on this topic over the years...and the deciding factor is LEADERSHIP. This. Best thing you can have is a coach who is THE MAN and can galvanize the community into a support system. Everything else will fall into place. |
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Post by mrjvi on Sept 21, 2012 12:46:24 GMT -6
Accountability fight is when kids who are sick and tired of kids not pulling their weight and contributing to the TEAM finally let them know it. Very Cleansing sometimes.  |
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kyle
Sophomore Member
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Post by kyle on Sept 21, 2012 13:48:32 GMT -6
Accountability fight is when kids who are sick and tired of kids not pulling their weight and contributing to the TEAM finally let them know it. Very Cleansing sometimes. Well I figured that... is there ever an actual fight? Or is it more of a "what the hell is your problem, man?" type of thing? |
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Post by 33coach on Sept 21, 2012 14:04:46 GMT -6
Ive got a recipe that ive found time and time again works (not that i can always stick to it..but the winning teams are doing something like this)
1) weight room (or some other 'non football workout as a team) not only does this get the kids in shape. It brings the team together
2)community outreach. Getting your players to do stuff in the community. Charity walks..stuff like that. The community will back a team that gives to the community.
3) organized structure. There is nothing worse then a oligarchy as a coaching staff. there needs to be a single defined authoritative and reporting structure. This is also true with the kids.
4) define the rules. Academic rules, on campus rules, off campus rules.
5) system and plan. All coaches must agree on the system and the implementation plan.
6) exicution and attendence. Both by players and coaches.
7) 'football IQ' your players and coaches need to understand the game. Clueless players do not do well..and clueless coaches cant teach well.
Sent from my DROID Pro using proboards
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Post by carookie on Sept 21, 2012 23:09:36 GMT -6
To the last statement of the OP, yes there is some luck involved; granted that luck is counterbalanced by superior talent, execution, etc. But its rare for someone to be in a situation where their talent and ability far exceeds the opposition to completely out weigh any random variances.
Exampes: Belichick, HOF great, was mediocre in Cleveland (sure he probably grew since then) but I imagine there were just some things out of his control that just happened in NE. In that same line of thought Brady, nobody thought he'd amount to much; rode the pine a lot and only got in because of a big time injury. But if Bledsoe never got hurt, or if he got drafted by Seattle I doubt he'd be married to a supermodel. There is a certain level of randomness and luck.
I'll cut myself short before I get going here and say that I agree that the single biggest key to being successful at the HS level is leadership. Someone who can set a disciplined, organized, clear, and enforceable goals, while keeping the respect of those around him will often times have a better shot of success.
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 21, 2012 23:55:41 GMT -6
To the last statement of the OP, yes there is some luck involved; granted that luck is counterbalanced by superior talent, execution, etc. But its rare for someone to be in a situation where their talent and ability far exceeds the opposition to completely out weigh any random variances. Exampes: Belichick, HOF great, was mediocre in Cleveland (sure he probably grew since then) but I imagine there were just some things out of his control that just happened in NE. In that same line of thought Brady, nobody thought he'd amount to much; rode the pine a lot and only got in because of a big time injury. But if Bledsoe never got hurt, or if he got drafted by Seattle I doubt he'd be married to a supermodel. There is a certain level of randomness and luck. I'll cut myself short before I get going here and say that I agree that the single biggest key to being successful at the HS level is leadership. Someone who can set a disciplined, organized, clear, and enforceable goals, while keeping the respect of those around him will often times have a better shot of success. I don't know, here lately I would have to argue against that.... Provided leadership is married to admin/community support. Then again you did say SINGLE biggest.... |
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Post by mariner42 on Sept 22, 2012 2:23:05 GMT -6
In the literal sense, I think the weight room is the thing that makes winning possible. The HC at my alma mater has fully picked up the pieces that were left after the mess of the previous HC. The single biggest improvement has been to the program has been their bodies. They're lean, hard, fast and don't get injured.
In the bigger sense, creating and enforcing accountability within the practice is huge. After being exposed to a HOF caliber coach (which was a miserable, sh!tty season for me, to be honest), he taught me how to enforce accountability in a variety of ways. Once the kids see that you will consistently hold them to the standard you want, it's pretty easy to see results. This might fall under leadership, but I think it is also it's own spot.
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Post by tango on Sept 22, 2012 19:49:52 GMT -6
I think a lot of it has to do with how a coach fits in the town or school and not so much on how much he knows. This is my third head coaching job 1st one great, 2nd one never fit in, 3rd great.
Why not run whatever has been successful at the school in the past? Never thought about this but read it awhile back and makes some since. Our offense is similar to a former coach that was very successful a few years back. Most of our coaches coached with him or played for him. We were running our offense before I ever thought about it. We have a few schools in the area that have hired former coaches and have gotten a lot better in a hurry.
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Post by mrjvi on Sept 22, 2012 20:08:01 GMT -6
I stress and preach strength training and always have. MOST of the time, my best teams have been the most committed in the weight room. (chicken or egg??) But I have had 1 of my best teams in my 31 years of coaching, 21 as the head, that never committed to the weight room but committed strongly during the pre-season. (Yes, Kyle, they had the most fights early season-break them apart one,s BUT some of my best other teams didn't have physical fights because the vision was clearly shared by most)
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Post by coachbuck on Sept 23, 2012 3:44:27 GMT -6
I have not been coaching long enough to have a sure fire way to turn a program around. Here is what I think works. Weight room in the off season. Alot of dedication throughout the year. I know this has made a big impact in my son and his team. When kids dedicate throughout the year then it matters to them. They will not accept losing. They may still lose but they fight alot harder than the kid that shows up mid summer to try out for football. Regardless if he has talent. Those type of kids can take it or leave it. You know the kid that is pretty good can help you out but as soon as you lose in the playoffs is walking off the field and it doesnt bother him at all. The other thing I think is important is strong leadership from the HC. I believe a team takes on the personality of the HC. If the kids believe in you and the kids think you will run through a brick wall for them they will do the same for you.
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kyle
Sophomore Member
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Post by kyle on Sept 23, 2012 10:34:39 GMT -6
I stress and preach strength training and always have. MOST of the time, my best teams have been the most committed in the weight room. (chicken or egg??) But I have had 1 of my best teams in my 31 years of coaching, 21 as the head, that never committed to the weight room but committed strongly during the pre-season. (Yes, Kyle, they had the most fights early season-break them apart one,s BUT some of my best other teams didn't have physical fights because the vision was clearly shared by most) So how do you get that out of your players? I'm just a youth coach, so maybe it's a different deal for me, but how do you get players to hold each other accountable? I don't think we ever had anything like that on my high school team. |
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Post by realdawg on Sept 23, 2012 19:08:32 GMT -6
Never been a HC but I'll pitch in what I think. I agree with a lot of what is said about leadership, kids playing for each other, coaches caring about kids, etc..... But one aspect I haven't heard mentioned is the preaching of physical play. We have beaten several teams with more talent than us, including one this week because they simply got tired of being hit. I contribute our ability to do this to 2 things. 1) the entire staff preaches physical play year round. 2) our weight program. By the way I am not talking about cheap shots or anything. Just good hard nosed football between the whistles.
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Post by carookie on Sept 23, 2012 19:22:05 GMT -6
Heres the funny thing; I can think of programs that have adhered to each of the ideas posted (and they are all good ideas) and tanked. Conversely, I can think of some instances where the coaches rarely practice those things mentioned and win consistently; heck I know a guy who has 3 state rings as a HC and never runs an offseason weight room.
I'm not saying don't try to find the answer , because I think it is a worthy search and a good post. I just feel there will always be outliers, luck, and intangibles. But in a way thats what makes it fun, otherwise it would just be computerized chess.
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Post by mrjvi on Sept 23, 2012 20:05:56 GMT -6
Kyle,
I encourage kids to make each other accountable (not to fight , though). Doing your job for the team. I talk about it all year. All the things people have mentioned are things that contribute to success and I think are things that make them accountable. The better they are at that the better our team seems to be. We don't have it like I think we should this year yet. Not enough bought into it. We are 1-3. I'm not sure we can salvage it this year, though I would never tell the players that. It was the worst year in 31 years in the weight room this off-season so that pre-requisite of decent strength levels isn't there. So we'll see if can get the most possible out of them in the other areas. Don't ever say you are "just a youth coach". That's where kids get excited about football and that to me is #1 regardless of how "effective" x's and o's are.
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kyle
Sophomore Member
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Post by kyle on Sept 24, 2012 11:30:15 GMT -6
Heres the funny thing; I can think of programs that have adhered to each of the ideas posted (and they are all good ideas) and tanked. Conversely, I can think of some instances where the coaches rarely practice those things mentioned and win consistently; heck I know a guy who has 3 state rings as a HC and never runs an offseason weight room. I'm not saying don't try to find the answer , because I think it is a worthy search and a good post. I just feel there will always be outliers, luck, and intangibles. But in a way thats what makes it fun, otherwise it would just be computerized chess. I think there is some sort of secret. There are guys who actually can go into a losing program and turn that program around, sometimes within the first year, and if you listen to those guys, they all tell you the same thing. It's the same stuff that gets repeated over and over, but I don't think that it's the same to hear it. You've actually got to learn how to do what they're telling you. And I don't mean that you need to learn how to run man coverage or anything, but their approach to the same thing is completely different from another persons. If two guys say that they emphasizes accountability, that doesn't mean the same thing. I've noticed that a lot of coaches say, "You've got to talk about [x]," but that typically doesn't help me very much because the way I talk about [x] will probably be way different form the way you talk about it. |
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kyle
Sophomore Member
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Post by kyle on Sept 24, 2012 11:32:30 GMT -6
Kyle, I encourage kids to make each other accountable (not to fight , though). Doing your job for the team. I talk about it all year. All the things people have mentioned are things that contribute to success and I think are things that make them accountable. The better they are at that the better our team seems to be. We don't have it like I think we should this year yet. Not enough bought into it. We are 1-3. I'm not sure we can salvage it this year, though I would never tell the players that. It was the worst year in 31 years in the weight room this off-season so that pre-requisite of decent strength levels isn't there. So we'll see if can get the most possible out of them in the other areas. Don't ever say you are "just a youth coach". That's where kids get excited about football and that to me is #1 regardless of how "effective" x's and o's are. Thanks coach. It certainly is fun when kids get all wide eyed over a simple tackling drill that they've done 50 times already. |
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