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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 6:49:46 GMT -6
I put this in the general thread section b/c I wanted all coaches to have a look at this (both OC's and DC's). I've been noticing a trend with triple option teams in that if their opponent's have more than a week to prepare, the triple option seems fairly mediocre. I do not have concrete numbers, but I am going to research this. I just wanted to get some input from folks on here as well.
Duece
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Post by blb on Sept 4, 2012 6:59:13 GMT -6
You have a point.
Lou Holtz said, "The Triple Option forces Defenses to have to out-execute you, not just out-personnel you."
The Defense can stop whatever it wants to stop (especially with more preparation time) but unless they are vastly physically superior, they can't stop everything.
The Triple Option is not the answer to everything. The task is to have enough to take advantage of how the Defense is stopping Triple Option without harming execution (practice time considerations).
Coach Yeoman said "We would run, run, run until they put enough people up there to stop it, and then we would throw, throw, throw."
The object is to get the ball in the End Zone. How you do it is not that important.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 7:05:04 GMT -6
Whoa! I never said anything about the triple option being the answer to everything. What I'm asking is that to my observation it seems that triple option teams struggle when their opponent has more than one week to prepare.
Duece
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Sept 4, 2012 7:12:19 GMT -6
Duece,
I agree with you. I think partly it is because the defense now has time to figure out MULTIPLE ways to stop the triple. Change up with option responsibilities and have enough time to rep them while still being sound.
Then the OC gets a chance to work on an adjustment. When they give you multiple looks it becomes more difficult.
I think when the opponent gets one week, they can have ONE way that the kids understand to stop the triple, they may say they have more, but do the kids understand?
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Post by blb on Sept 4, 2012 7:15:16 GMT -6
Whoa! I never said anything about the triple option being the answer to everything. What I'm asking is that to my observation it seems that triple option teams struggle when their opponent has more than one week to prepare. ...and my reply was IF all that team has to rely on is Triple Option or stubbornly sticks to it when it is well-defended, yes they will struggle or "seem fairly mediocre." |
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Post by CS on Sept 4, 2012 7:27:48 GMT -6
Whoa! I never said anything about the triple option being the answer to everything. What I'm asking is that to my observation it seems that triple option teams struggle when their opponent has more than one week to prepare. ...and my reply was IF all that team has to rely on is Triple Option or stubbornly sticks to it when it is well-defended, yes they will struggle or "seem fairly mediocre." Almost all triple option teams stick to the triple because it's what they do. And deuce mediocre option teams are mediocre against an opponent that has more than one week to prepare. If they are a good option team they will be good against anybody they face no matter what amount of time they have to prepare. If you only run inside and outside veer I could see the problem but it you add midline and reverse options to all of them plus a good play action game it's will be hard to defend no matter what. Oh and forgot about load option and speed option. They are just as multiple as a lot of other offenses |
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Post by blb on Sept 4, 2012 7:31:06 GMT -6
In the 1978 Orange Bowl and with a month to prepare Holtz's first Arkansas team shut down a heavily-favored Oklahoma team and its vaunted Wishbone Offense 31-6.
Of course Arkansas was running the "Twin Veer" Offense themselves.
That was the game Holtz suspended three starters including their leading rusher-scorer.
Arkansas' DC was Monte Kiffin.
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Post by mattyg2787 on Sept 4, 2012 8:08:02 GMT -6
It also comes down to contrarian offenses again. If every team in your comp runs flex triple, defenses are going to stop it easily. (same with spread, pro i, wing t and dw)
So by the same token, if a team has more time to prep on d, the o is going to struggle. This is why div 1 teams are slowly changing back out of spread.
This is also why you have your comp plays and tags. Against a team that can't stop isv, why run anything else. When that team is stopping it by doing x, you need to do y.
Like so many guys have said about everything, its a game of chess. Or like a boxing match finding counters to your opponents counters.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards
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Post by veerbone on Sept 4, 2012 8:37:16 GMT -6
Deuce, in my opinion, it helps the defense, but after watching VA Tech-GA Tech last night, why is it that nobody says you can't give defenses more than a week to prepare for the garbage VT was running? VA Tech was less than impressive, but you never head that said about non-option teams.
You can have a year to prepare, but if you don't have the Johnny's and Joe's to execute, it won't matter. You have to be good enough without the time to be able to stop an option team.
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Post by fantom on Sept 4, 2012 9:06:22 GMT -6
I put this in the general thread section b/c I wanted all coaches to have a look at this (both OC's and DC's). I've been noticing a trend with triple option teams in that if their opponent's have more than a week to prepare, the triple option seems fairly mediocre. I do not have concrete numbers, but I am going to research this. I just wanted to get some input from folks on here as well. Duece Deuce, I heard a clinic speaker on the topic of defensing the option and that was one of the first thing he said-that he wanted to open with them if he has a choice. It takes reps, reps, and more reps for it to become second nature for the players and that takes time. The best example I can think of is the Auburn-Oregon a few years ago. Remember that play where Nick Fairley jab steps inside to take the dive away, then comes upfield and crushes the QB? That was by design. Think they could have done that with one week to rep it up? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 9:25:09 GMT -6
I'm just looking back at this past week and bowl week for Navy and GT. Navy was crushed by ND, and I know ND has superior players, but the triple is usually a thorn in most teams side. It was but a footnote for ND last weekend. GT looked average at best, they did make some good adjustments, but the "rarity" or "contrarian" seemed lacking...again, just a casual observation...
Duece
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Post by CS on Sept 4, 2012 9:55:42 GMT -6
I'm just looking back at this past week and bowl week for Navy and GT. Navy was crushed by ND, and I know ND has superior players, but the triple is usually a thorn in most teams side. It was but a footnote for ND last weekend. GT looked average at best, they did make some good adjustments, but the "rarity" or "contrarian" seemed lacking...again, just a casual observation... Duece It could also come down to what kinda athletes you are working with. I have a lot of speed on my defense but very little size. So Im not as worried about option teams; not worried at all with spread teams. but I don't care if you give me a month to prepare for a power run team. I'm gonna be up all night worried we are gonna get steam rolled |
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Post by fantom on Sept 4, 2012 9:58:19 GMT -6
I'm just looking back at this past week and bowl week for Navy and GT. Navy was crushed by ND, and I know ND has superior players, but the triple is usually a thorn in most teams side. It was but a footnote for ND last weekend. GT looked average at best, they did make some good adjustments, but the "rarity" or "contrarian" seemed lacking...again, just a casual observation... Duece It probably made a difference that VT/GT was a conference game. VT sees it every year. |
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 4, 2012 11:51:41 GMT -6
I think what anyone says on here is going to be anecdotal..If you really want to know, I would just suggest looking at the records of college flexbone teams when the opponent has had the previous week off...wouldn't be that hard to do if you had the time..
NOW IMO....teams that happen to have stud DT's seem to have the best "luck"..basically VT was giving them a 5 box all night and GT could gain the length of my pecker
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 11:55:36 GMT -6
I would disagree dcohio, that, I think, is what the different types of options are for. When I was an OC, we didn't just run option. We ran ISV, OSV, midline, and all the dbl options as well as Rocket, and some counters. I also don't think PJ or Coach N run just option, however Navy is a little heavy on it b/c I'm sure they have some practice restraints with other Naval functions going on. When you watch what they do, there's more to it than option, and I thought PJ did a good job adjusting to what was working last night (he's dam good at that too).
I've had nights where the ONLY thing working was midline, and that's just fine too. As a matter of fact I've had teams stop ISV, and OSV, but only slow midline. I think when the defense has to prepare for all 3, the ball is in the offense's hands then. I mean, if option was so tough, why do people run it then?
Duece
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Post by fantom on Sept 4, 2012 12:02:04 GMT -6
I think what anyone says on here is going to be anecdotal..If you really want to know, I would just suggest looking at the records of college flexbone teams when the opponent has had the previous week off...wouldn't be that hard to do if you had the time.. NOW IMO....teams that happen to have stud DT's seem to have the best "luck"..basically VT was giving them a 5 box all night and GT could gain the length of my pecker There was an article in the local paper earlier in the week alluding to that. Bud mentioned that in past years they went "athletic" inside and it didn't work. This year they went with 300 pounders. Of course, for that to work you have to have 300 pounders. |
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CoachF
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Post by CoachF on Sept 4, 2012 19:30:04 GMT -6
There is no doubt that preparation gives the defense a big help, case in point, Iowa vs. Ga Tech in the orange bowl a few years back.
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Post by coachmacplains on Sept 5, 2012 14:32:52 GMT -6
Gotta believe extra prep time helped both ND and Va Tech. In deciding what you will run there are obviously a lot of factors; but, we always felt that when we were primarily running option, it took more prep time for our opponents who just had that week to prepare.
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kyle
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Post by kyle on Sept 5, 2012 20:10:00 GMT -6
A good portion of Michigan's running game is option. And they didn't even look mediocre.
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Post by Chris Clement on Sept 5, 2012 23:15:05 GMT -6
Both Navy and GT seemed to panic and just starting flailing in desperation with irrational shotgun passing attacks because they couldn't get the dive going and didn't have any adjustments. ND had dummied all three academies with the EXACT same gameplan in the last two years, so they were probably going to win anyway, but Navy just seemed woefully underprepared. Both teams seemed to have passing games that were wholly unrelated to the running game, and panicked way too early.
I think lacking OV really hurts those Flex teams. There are other things they do, but it just doesn't put the same stress on the outside guys.
Also, what was that hideous "Draw Double Option" thing GT ran? Dear God, that was ugly.
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Post by maximum on Sept 11, 2012 10:50:18 GMT -6
All offenses probably do worse when the opponent has had two weeks to prepare, so the question isn't if the Triple Option is worse when the opponent has two weeks, but weather, relatively, it loses a greater amount of its value than other offenses do in that situation.
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