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Post by coachbdud on Sept 3, 2012 20:53:22 GMT -6
I almost blew up today, at some of my own coaches...
I am a nice guy, fairly open to suggestions from other coaches... I will listen to it, and if I like it, we can go with it... but I want it to fit in with what we are already doing
We are minimalist in terms of scheme, but our tempo, and how we can threaten the defense across the field makes us difficult to defend (in my eyes)
I like to package things off the same look to really confuse backers and secondary so they dont know if its IZ, screen, pass, everything is built off of a similar look and most importantly everything fits out offense
you can not tee off on us to the back, away form back, to single WR side, wide side, we have some constraints pretty much built in to everything. I wish our pass game was a little more crisp but overall I am fairly happy with where we are at right now offensively
Anyway a couple coaches feel the need to suggest things all the time and I just about lost it today
Coach #1
you know how we run snag...
me: yeah
well instead of our normal trips, lets put Y directly behind our X, now his bubble can get up the sideline and then corner will follow the snag in, safety is occupied by our H, we can hit the deep ball to our Y or blah blah blah and he goes on
I do not want to add in a new play, make a new read for the QB, and waste any time on something new like that when the base way we run snag is perfectly fine as is... we will hit the snag our bubble every time we throw it because the defenses underneath coverage isnt very good... we don't need it
Im discussing how annoyed I was with the suggestion every week of some random thing to do for 1 play, with Coach #2 and he gets all attitude with me...
"We should do stuff like that, why don't we add something new every week?! thats the point of film! you add a new play every week ! We always used to do that!"
He has been at the school longer than I have, I pretty much snapped," and you guys always sucked offensively!"
I was heated, I am trying to make an offense that is consistent and reliable, the offense in the past has been sporadic, reliant on big plays and athleticism and could never move the ball on long methodical drive
I tried explaining to them that if we add a play a week, we are going to suck at all of them, and they just don't get it
sorry I just needed to rant to somebody else
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Post by carookie on Sept 3, 2012 22:44:37 GMT -6
Coach, IMO you are 100% right. Good for you sticking by your guns. You are right to encourage a free exchange of ideas, but it can be a pain being the one who makes the decisions when people start trying to lobby for their own random ideas.
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Post by Chris Clement on Sept 3, 2012 22:47:55 GMT -6
At The Zoo, the teenaged HC and his buddy OC were so proud of themselves for having 40 "plays" in for game 1 and set a goal of installing 10-20 more per week for a team of gr. 7/8 kids. We were using a triple window wristband by game 4.
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Post by fantom on Sept 3, 2012 22:49:24 GMT -6
Coach, IMO you are 100% right. Good for you sticking by your guns. You are right to encourage a free exchange of ideas, but it can be a pain being the one who makes the decisions when people start trying to lobby for their own random ideas. If you get mad at them how's that a free exchange of ideas? Not saying that you should go with every hare-brained scheme that somebody concocts but why get angry about it? |
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Post by 33coach on Sept 3, 2012 22:52:19 GMT -6
Good for you coach. Run your system.
Listen and allow the discussion to happen. But at the end. You decide if it fits.
You have no idea how many times i hear the same thing. As a double wing team we have assistant coaches say stuff like 'coach..lets put in a spread package. Lets put in veer. Lets put in some pistol...yada yada yada.'
Stick to your guns..tell them to pound sand if they dont like it.
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Post by coachbdud on Sept 3, 2012 23:02:33 GMT -6
Coach, IMO you are 100% right. Good for you sticking by your guns. You are right to encourage a free exchange of ideas, but it can be a pain being the one who makes the decisions when people start trying to lobby for their own random ideas. If you get mad at them how's that a free exchange of ideas? Not saying that you should go with every hare-brained scheme that somebody concocts but why get angry about it? I wasn't mad about a suggestion... Again I'm open to hearing anything and evaluating it in my head It was how they acted after when I pretty much said nice idea, don't think it's right for us Coach A kept preaching how it would cure every disease known to mankind And later coach B went attack mode on me and my offensive beliefs |
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Post by fantom on Sept 3, 2012 23:09:07 GMT -6
If you get mad at them how's that a free exchange of ideas? Not saying that you should go with every hare-brained scheme that somebody concocts but why get angry about it? I wasn't mad about a suggestion... Again I'm open to hearing anything and evaluating it in my head It was how they acted after when I pretty much said nice idea, don't think it's right for us Coach A kept preaching how it would cure every disease known to mankind And later coach B went attack mode on me and my offensive beliefs Wasn't talking to you as much as Carookie. I agree that they should speak their piece and give the reasoning behind it. No means no, though. Getting personal, as it sounds like some did, crosses the line. |
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Post by mariner42 on Sept 3, 2012 23:23:36 GMT -6
And later coach B went attack mode on me and my offensive beliefs I had this bullspit going on last season within my defensive staff. It drove me crazy all season and eventually cost me the job. I'm sure your guy isn't the sociopath/sh!tbag that mine was, but you may need to consider having a conversation with him where you explain that you'll listen and consider and appreciate and then when you're ready to move on, he better be, too. If he can't do that, well... ain't no one irreplaceable. In the future, I'll be doing a lot less soliciting of ideas in the future and I'll be much more selective with who I do it from. Until I know all my people are actually MY people, that's how I'll handle my business because I had such a situation spiral beyond my control. I'm all for empowering assistants, I actually believe in it pretty strongly, but I won't repeat previous mistakes in that aspect of things. |
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Post by bluedevil4 on Sept 3, 2012 23:25:27 GMT -6
At The Zoo, the teenaged HC and his buddy OC were so proud of themselves for having 40 "plays" in for game 1 and set a goal of installing 10-20 more per week for a team of gr. 7/8 kids. We were using a triple window wristband by game 4. Guilty: I did that my second year coaching with the same grade (first as a play caller) lol. Thankfully the kids ran them all very well. I've gotten away from that thankfully. One thing that helped me realize this is that during that year, we had all those plays, but we manhandled everybody and went undefeated with maybe four plays. We basically ran the other stuff when we were ahead by a lot, or if we were ahead and the kids wanted to give it a try. I've realized there's nothing wrong with having a lot of plays, but they're all pointless if they don't blend in or compliment each other. A couple years ago, we had a one-and-done staff who grab bagged. They swear to the bible they are a wing-T staff, but each week there was a different offense, from wing-T, to power-I, to spread, to veer, etc. First time a "grab-bagger" really ticked me off. Glad they are gone now. In our new offense, we run power, IZ, OZ, counter, and that's about it. It's so much easier! Don't install plays to deal with each situation. Adapt your core plays to each situation. It results in much more efficiency and less confusion. |
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Post by hback41 on Sept 4, 2012 0:42:59 GMT -6
Our offense turned into grab bag because the HC and OC had different ideas. This year, we cut the playbook way back. We are adding wrinkles on a schedule. We ran 8 plays on Friday. Last year we ran 8 different plays in the first series of game 1. It's tough sticking to only running what we execute well rather than what would be fun and cool.
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Post by mattyg2787 on Sept 4, 2012 1:45:50 GMT -6
Wow, we are soo lucky to have our oc. He has about 6-7 run plays packaged with different motions. I put it to him early we needed a counter off our stuff and it took nearly a month for me to convince him to put that in. What it means now is we can aattack anywhere any way we like but it is soo simple for us. Its great.
Have you explained why your minimalist to them?
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Post by coachseth on Sept 4, 2012 2:18:12 GMT -6
I have a situation like that with one of my defensive coaches, he played at a major college and thinks that we shouldn't have strong/weak side linebackers/defensive ends. I explained to him very simply that kids need to learn how to read offenses, and how each linebacker has traits that get him put in the position I want him. Our strong side linebackers are normally better at shedding blocks, while our weak side guys are more athletic and can chase down counters or cover an extra wideout.
Point being, at the end of the day you're the head coach. You've been trusted to make decisions based off what you think is right. It's not always easy, and honestly sometimes it's not as fun as just calling the plays but you're in that position for a reason. I think you have every right to get mad, if you're anything like me you believe in doing things a certain way and not doing it any other way. Sure, you might add a new wrinkle here and there (I prefer new formations) but at the end of the day it's your decision. If coach so and so can't respect that, than maybe they need to hit the bricks.
I'd rather have zero assistants than have one that isn't following the words I'm preaching.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 4:29:58 GMT -6
I'm on the defensive side of the ball at a place where it's just the opposite: as a staff, we're always looking for the super magical facemelter stunt that'll shut down the opponent and cause them to turn it over so we can score on defense. We do weird things like teach kids to wrong arm counter plays but not power, go back and forth between 2 gapping and 1 gapping without spending time teaching our LBs how to read guards, run 30 different fronts with different alignment rules, call fronts without much consideration of the coverages we need, and switch back and forth from spilling to boxing on a weekly basis.
The other coaches look at me like I'm a fool because whenever I'm asked for my opinion about what we should do, I always simply repeat "I think we'll be fine if we just read our keys and stress X, Y, and Z fundamentals this week" instead of trying to draw up the next facemelter.
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Post by CS on Sept 4, 2012 8:17:52 GMT -6
I agree with your philosophy but if you are going to openly encourage input from coaches then you have to take the bad with the good. Not every idea is gonna be a winner to you but to them they thought enough of the idea to bring it to the oc. Put yourself in that guys shoes. He probably thought he was bringing gold to you and when you put it down he didn't understand or you hurt his feelings so he got offended. From what I gather you were professional about it and nice enough but he thought it was a great idea or he would not have brought it to you
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Post by silkyice on Sept 4, 2012 8:28:15 GMT -6
Instead of open dialouge, set some parameters.
Explain to them what you think grab bagging is. Explain that you want things that fit into your offense.
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Post by carookie on Sept 4, 2012 10:28:02 GMT -6
I wasn't mad about a suggestion... Again I'm open to hearing anything and evaluating it in my head It was how they acted after when I pretty much said nice idea, don't think it's right for us Coach A kept preaching how it would cure every disease known to mankind And later coach B went attack mode on me and my offensive beliefs Wasn't talking to you as much as Carookie. I agree that they should speak their piece and give the reasoning behind it. No means no, though. Getting personal, as it sounds like some did, crosses the line. I didn't think I was defending him getting mad. Sorry if I gave that impression |
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Post by coachcb on Sept 4, 2012 12:19:14 GMT -6
Coach, I think this is a common issue for any HC or coordinator and you handled it exactly the way you needed to. I don't even think you made it that personal in the end, you just pointed out a simple fact. There are times when it's going to get heated.
Last year, we had to can our 3 step game because it just wasn't being coached correctly. I went through every thing with the staff, showed them videos, and diagrams but it still wasn't getting done. It was a seesaw; I took it over for a few days, it started to look crisp and then fell apart when I gave it back to the staff. The OL wasn't improving the way they needed to either because they weren't getting enough time from me. We were spending too much time on it and a lot of other areas were hurting too. So, I scrapped it: we threw off of PA all year.
It came up several times in meetings and I was amicable for the first two weeks. I went through all of it with the guys again and we went back to work. It finally came to a head during a film meeting after our first game (which we won):
"Coach, we really need that 3-step and screen game: would could have gashed them with it."
"So, a 43% pass-completion percentage coupled with 5 INTs and no TDs would have gashed them? Those were the stats for our last three rounds of pass skeleton, fellas. It's not being coached right and I'm done wasting time on it. "
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Post by fantom on Sept 4, 2012 12:38:22 GMT -6
Wasn't talking to you as much as Carookie. I agree that they should speak their piece and give the reasoning behind it. No means no, though. Getting personal, as it sounds like some did, crosses the line. I didn't think I was defending him getting mad. Sorry if I gave that impression Hey, we figured out that we're all on the same page. Same boat, in fact. |
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Post by lochness on Sept 4, 2012 12:45:38 GMT -6
The only thing I would add here is that you need to make sure the HC backs you up. As a coordinator, you are simply an instrument of the HC's philosophy. If the HC believes in keeping it simple and executing your base stuff... then the HC should make it clear to everyone that you are defending his philosophy and policy. That takes the "personal" heat off of you and puts it onto the HC where it belongs.
I found myself in the exact same situation as a younger OC. We had Johnny PopWarner Dad and his buddy on our staff who always wanted to do something different than what we were currently running. Need less TE's on the field. Need MORE TE's on the field. Need more counters. Need to throw more. Need more motion. Need less motion. It never ended. The bad result was that my HC, who was a "less is more" kind of guy, just sat there and let me do all the arguing and rationalizing, and it damaged my relationships with those coaches. I felt it was unfair of the HC to leave me in that positon...knowing full well that if I ever went into his office in a 1-on-1 with those same thoughts, he'd rip me.
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kyle
Sophomore Member
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Post by kyle on Sept 4, 2012 13:23:45 GMT -6
I've been on the other side of this a lot. I'll say things like, "this doesn't make sense to me." And then the HC will give me a line that sounds like BS, and he expects me to eat it. The guy I'm with now is like that, and he's usually the guy who gets defensive. It's always amazed me how perfectly sane individuals can act so disrespectful just because they bought a whistle and a clip board. You're right though, you should be a minimalist. I don't think you should get mad at your staff though. If they're anything like me, then they're sore about it, and they'll feel like you didn't listen to them. I do love experimenting with offense though. I feel like it's the best way to learn an offense - to play with it at the end of a season. I think if you give them a date, like two to three weeks at the end of the year, where they can put in some different stuff to test it out on grass, that might be a nice compromise. If your QB doesn't have the reads down by then, then you probably wont by the end of the season anyways.  |
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Post by 33coach on Sept 4, 2012 13:45:50 GMT -6
I've been on the other side of this a lot. I'll say things like, "this doesn't make sense to me." And then the HC will give me a line that sounds like BS, and he expects me to eat it. The guy I'm with now is like that, and he's usually the guy who gets defensive. It's always amazed me how perfectly sane individuals can act so disrespectful just because they bought a whistle and a clip board. You're right though, you should be a minimalist. I don't think you should get mad at your staff though. If they're anything like me, then they're sore about it, and they'll feel like you didn't listen to them. I do love experimenting with offense though. I feel like it's the best way to learn an offense - to play with it at the end of a season. I think if you give them a date, like two to three weeks at the end of the year, where they can put in some different stuff to test it out on grass, that might be a nice compromise. If your QB doesn't have the reads down by then, then you probably wont by the end of the season anyways. Thats a good compromise. Sent from my DROID Pro using proboards |
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Post by fantom on Sept 4, 2012 18:16:17 GMT -6
I've been on the other side of this a lot. I'll say things like, "this doesn't make sense to me." And then the HC will give me a line that sounds like BS, and he expects me to eat it. The guy I'm with now is like that, and he's usually the guy who gets defensive. It's always amazed me how perfectly sane individuals can act so disrespectful just because they bought a whistle and a clip board. You're right though, you should be a minimalist. I don't think you should get mad at your staff though. If they're anything like me, then they're sore about it, and they'll feel like you didn't listen to them. I do love experimenting with offense though. I feel like it's the best way to learn an offense - to play with it at the end of a season. I think if you give them a date, like two to three weeks at the end of the year, where they can put in some different stuff to test it out on grass, that might be a nice compromise. If your QB doesn't have the reads down by then, then you probably wont by the end of the season anyways. Let me get this right: you want to ask the HC to use practice time in-season just to try something new? |
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Post by mariner42 on Sept 4, 2012 21:17:51 GMT -6
I do love experimenting with offense though. I feel like it's the best way to learn an offense - to play with it at the end of a season. I think if you give them a date, like two to three weeks at the end of the year, where they can put in some different stuff to test it out on grass, that might be a nice compromise. If your QB doesn't have the reads down by then, then you probably wont by the end of the season anyways. To me, this is a spring or summer thing where you're less strapped for time. You're not doing it in pads so it's a different look, but you can get a feel for what's working about it and what isn't. |
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Post by coachbuck on Sept 4, 2012 22:52:33 GMT -6
I've been on the other side of this a lot. I'll say things like, "this doesn't make sense to me." And then the HC will give me a line that sounds like BS, and he expects me to eat it. The guy I'm with now is like that, and he's usually the guy who gets defensive. It's always amazed me how perfectly sane individuals can act so disrespectful just because they bought a whistle and a clip board. You're right though, you should be a minimalist. I don't think you should get mad at your staff though. If they're anything like me, then they're sore about it, and they'll feel like you didn't listen to them. I do love experimenting with offense though. I feel like it's the best way to learn an offense - to play with it at the end of a season. I think if you give them a date, like two to three weeks at the end of the year, where they can put in some different stuff to test it out on grass, that might be a nice compromise. If your QB doesn't have the reads down by then, then you probably wont by the end of the season anyways. I think this is a bad idea and can open a can of worms. Your the oc, call your offense. If the hc is happy then your all good. Im a minimal list on my team also. Its almost laughable how few plays we have. My coaches where giving me a hardtime today about it but they love the simplicity and the ease of what we do. |
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kyle
Sophomore Member
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Post by kyle on Sept 5, 2012 7:14:39 GMT -6
I think this is a bad idea and can open a can of worms. Your the oc, call your offense. If the hc is happy then your all good. Im a minimal list on my team also. Its almost laughable how few plays we have. My coaches where giving me a hardtime today about it but they love the simplicity and the ease of what we do. The can of worms comes from the guys who say "I will listen to what you have to say", but they're not going to consider it. It's like someone saying, "Sure, you can come up with a curriculum for your film class that you really want to teach, and you can spend a lot of time researching how to do it, and you can even pitch the idea too!" But the whole time they were never going to consider adding the class. Say "no" if that's your stance, or at least prefix it with, "I'll probably never put it in..." Don't waste peoples' time and get feelings hurt. |
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Sept 5, 2012 7:18:40 GMT -6
"The can of worms comes from the guys who say "I will listen to what you have to say", but they're not going to consider it. It's like someone saying, "Sure, you can come up with a curriculum for your film class that you really want to teach, and you can spend a lot of time researching how to do it, and you can even pitch the idea too!" But the whole time they were never going to consider adding the class." Read more: coachhuey.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=post&thread=54809&page=1#ixzz25bKKeSODI don't think he was talking about guys who have researched and put alot of thought in to the suggestion. I think he is talking about guys who want to run whatever "cool" play they saw on Saturday watching college games. |
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kyle
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Post by kyle on Sept 5, 2012 7:41:22 GMT -6
I don't think he was talking about guys who have researched and put alot of thought in to the suggestion. I think he is talking about guys who want to run whatever "cool" play they saw on Saturday watching college games. These guys probably think the play looked cool in NCAA 2002, but it's still a can of worms, evident by the guy who "got all attitude". |
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Post by IronmanFootball on Sept 5, 2012 8:10:02 GMT -6
If we run 8 plays, there's only 4 different blocking schemes. No reason you can't get plays to look similar (Speed option and toss for instance).
I also notice it's not the play design a lot of guys don't have down, it's the fact that 25 different blocking schemes is too much for HS kids to remember, at least in 2 1/2 hrs of practice. But hey, in NCAA 13, I run the flexbone, and the empty set and we're a zone team and a power team... and they seem to get it down!!
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Post by cqmiller on Sept 5, 2012 8:33:48 GMT -6
WELCOME TO MY LIFE COACH...
Right now we are bad at blocking zone, power, and counter (our 3 base run plays), and our QB (sophomore) is scared to death and takes off running if anyone looks into the pocket. I have coaches who are wanting us to ADD plays and add responsibilities rather than focusing on the basics. So many assistants think the answer is to "trick" the other team, which usually just tricks your team worse.
I sent out a nasty email to my staff today telling them that they are either on-board with what I'm trying to do or we can part ways...
Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals... scheme is rarely the reason anyone wins/losses a game. If both teams are really good fundamentally and you have a 1-possession game, you can get a "cheap one" which will decide the outcome, but most of the games I've won as a HC was because the other team was so much worse than ours, we could have probably just run power 65 times and come out on top. Same with when we lose... If my 3-tech and 1-tech are getting OWNED by a solo-block by an opponent's OL, what scheme is going to help you with that...?
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Post by joelee on Sept 5, 2012 8:35:11 GMT -6
In the past we had a guy on our staff that just couldn't let crap go. I ran a pro-style spread. We went to the franklin clinic in Nashville before the season and during lunch he is telling us how his spread package is better than Tony's. I ignored everything he said. We averaged 48 per game in our state championship year. We scored 56 in the championship game. This dumb s.o.b. actually says after the game that we really would have benefited from his unbalanced wishbone package on the goalline!!
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