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Post by fantom on Aug 28, 2012 13:21:42 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 28, 2012 14:49:45 GMT -6
document....document....document....
We used to video tape the HC reading the warning sticker to all the players, and we taped tackling drills early in the season.
Some of the answers from the injured player do seem a tad "coached"...
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Post by syphrit7 on Aug 28, 2012 15:52:52 GMT -6
There is no way that coach ever told a kid to tackle with his head down.
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Post by fantom on Aug 28, 2012 22:29:59 GMT -6
There is no way that coach ever told a kid to tackle with his head down. I hadn't seen the video. Watched the show but didn't see the first couple of minutes and didn't want to comment until I saw them. The first thing I saw was when they were talking about teaching face tackling. That's why I found it odd when they showed the clip of the play on which the player was injured and he was spearing. BUT When the assistant coach confirmed that they taught face tackling which seems to be against Pop Warner rules the coach may have a problem. It's not hard to imagine that a kid could think that face tackling = spearing. |
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Post by coachseth on Aug 28, 2012 22:41:40 GMT -6
Seeing this like this scare me as a coach. We always teach to keep your head up, but some kids just don't get it. I've known kids who played since they were 5 and they never learned, and it makes me scared as a coach someone is going to get hurt.
Also, I REQUIRE all my assistant coaches to go through the USA Football Certification Program. I want to make sure we're being as safe as possible, because nobody deserves to lose their life over something like this.
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Post by Coach.A on Aug 28, 2012 23:24:42 GMT -6
Also, I REQUIRE all my assistant coaches to go through the USA Football Certification Program. I want to make sure we're being as safe as possible, because nobody deserves to lose their life over something like this. Based on the video in the link, there is a significant difference between the way Pop Warner wants tackling taught and the way USA Football teaches tackling. Compare the 4:58 - 5:10 mark in this video espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8307824with this USA Football video Is one method safer than the other? |
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Post by coachseth on Aug 29, 2012 0:15:03 GMT -6
I've always taught to bite the ball, I think USA Football's putting your head up as you shoot could be potentially dangerous and is extremely hard to execute while running full speed.
But, for what it's worth all our motions stay the same as the USA Football, except we bite the ball and bring the ball carrier down. A lot of leagues won't allow you just to pick someone up and drive them back if they're not going down.
Another question I have is, isn't Pop Warner ball done by weight limit? I know our league doesn't have a weight limit (if you're over a certain amount you're a lineman) in terms of cut off. I thought I heard somewhere they have a weight limit but I am not too sure, can anybody confirm/deny this?
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Post by coachdoug on Aug 29, 2012 7:08:41 GMT -6
I'm not sure I really see a significant difference b/w the USA Football method and the PW method. In fact, until this year, PW used USA Football for it's coaching certification courses. I took the course under USA Football in the past and PW's own course this year and thought they taught tackling the same.
I don't think the method is particularly difficult to execute - at least not moreso than any other method. One of the whole points of the method is to buzz the feet and break down into what they call hit position before contact so you're not running full speed at contact - sometimes easier said than done. When you shoot the hands and fire the hips forward, it is a natural physiological reaction for the head to stay up and back. In contrast, when you try to "wrap" the natural physiological response is for the hips to stay back and the head to go down.
This video is the best I've seen on how to properly teach this type of tackling:
I think this video does a much better job of explaining the technique and why it is mechanically superior and safer. I think you'll also get a much better sense how it can be executed at full speed.
I also like to use the terminology "bite the ball" - I think it embodies in a quick sound bite all the ideas of keeping the head up, getting low pad level, seeing what you hit, coming under control, etc, etc, but Pop Warner (or at least our league - I'm not sure if this is a local rule or naitonal) has outlawed the use of that term as they feel it promotes leading with the head.
I do think it's somewhat comical that such a big deal is made out of the PW certification training. As anyone who has taken the course can tell you, it is full of errors. While the section on tackling is actually pretty good, an awful lot of what else is in the course is just wrong. Improper technique in some cases, opinions presented as facts in others, and in some cases factual information that is simply incorrect. For instance, in the section on rules, they made factual errors about the rules in almost every rule they discussed. Seriously, how do you get the rules wrong in a coaching certification course? But they did, and not just once, but on almost every rule they discussed. IMHO opinion, the course has nothing to do with actual safety or promoting better coaching - I believe PW requires the course for 2 reasons - to protect themselves from lawsuits (hey, we make the coaches take this course that promotes proper technique, it's not our fault if they go out and teach something different), and to make more money off the coaches (the course cost about $20 and tens of thousands of coaches nationwide are required to take it every year - you can do the math). Honestly, the course is a joke.
Finally, to answer coachseth's question, yes PW has age and weight limits in most of its divisions. Mitey Mite, Jr. Pee Wee, Pee Wee, Jr. Midget, and Midget all have weight limits (I'm not sure about older divisions like Bantam). There is one division call "Unlimited" that does not have an upper weight limit, but does have a lower weight limit (105 lbs), for ages 11-14. That is actually the division I'm coaching in this year.
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Post by Coach.A on Aug 29, 2012 9:15:30 GMT -6
One of the whole points of the method is to buzz the feet and break down into what they call hit position before contact so you're not running full speed at contact - sometimes easier said than done. I don't want to get this thread too off topic....and I don't mean to nitpick, but, there are situations where we do want the tackler to run right through the ball carrier and not "buzz his feet" and there are other situations when we buzz (or shimmy) our feet. In profile situation where the ball carrier has a 1-way go (e.g. the ball carrier is running parrallel to the line of scrimmage towards the sideline) we have the tackler run full speed through the ball carrier. In "shimmy" situations, where the ball carrier has a 2-way go (e.g. open field where the ball carrier is facing you) we will buzz or shimmy our feet. I think the safety issue has more to do with keeping the top of the head out of contact rather than buzzing your feet to slow down before contact. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 29, 2012 11:38:47 GMT -6
I've always taught to bite the ball, I think USA Football's putting your head up as you shoot could be potentially dangerous and is extremely hard to execute while running full speed. I agree, and was vexed in 2010 to see the NAYS video showing the face mask going into the center of the chest. They didn't actually say to make contact with the mask, but it was hard to see how both players wouldn't. Getting the head out of the way by bulling the neck back is too difficult to achieve without a lot of practice (to train away the usual impulse to protect the head by tucking it in/down) and won't work anyway in the case of large height disparities; the shorter player, whether tackling or being tackled, is going to make contact with the headgear. The easier way to protect the head & neck is to have them either go to the side of the runner, or be buffered by the width of a shoulder from the front of the runner. It would be nice to use the sternum as a ram, allowing you to keep your hips and cleats going forward, but human beings don't have the neck of a bird or 4 legged animal that's curled backward from the trunk. |
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Post by coachdoug on Aug 29, 2012 11:45:29 GMT -6
One of the whole points of the method is to buzz the feet and break down into what they call hit position before contact so you're not running full speed at contact - sometimes easier said than done. I don't want to get this thread too off topic....and I don't mean to nitpick, but, there are situations where we do want the tackler to run right through the ball carrier and not "buzz his feet" and there are other situations when we buzz (or shimmy) our feet. In profile situation where the ball carrier has a 1-way go (e.g. the ball carrier is running parrallel to the line of scrimmage towards the sideline) we have the tackler run full speed through the ball carrier. In "shimmy" situations, where the ball carrier has a 2-way go (e.g. open field where the ball carrier is facing you) we will buzz or shimmy our feet. I think the safety issue has more to do with keeping the top of the head out of contact rather than buzzing your feet to slow down before contact. You're absolutely correct, and in re-reading what I wrote, I didn't write it very well. I wasn't trying to say that the point of buzzing the feet was to slow down the tackler to make it safer; I was trying to say that buzzing the feet is a big of what they're teaching and a natural result of that is that the tackler will come under control and get into "hit" position, which allow him to shoot the hands and fire the hips, which will naturally cause the head to stay up and back - away from contact. Of course, there are situations, like you mentioned, where the tackler either can't or won't want to slow down from full speed to make the tackle - in those situations, it is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to shoot the hands and fire the hips in the manner described. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 29, 2012 11:48:34 GMT -6
I do think it's somewhat comical that such a big deal is made out of the PW certification training. As anyone who has taken the course can tell you, it is full of errors. While the section on tackling is actually pretty good, an awful lot of what else is in the course is just wrong. Improper technique in some cases, opinions presented as facts in others, and in some cases factual information that is simply incorrect. For instance, in the section on rules, they made factual errors about the rules in almost every rule they discussed. Seriously, how do you get the rules wrong in a coaching certification course? But they did, and not just once, but on almost every rule they discussed. If you think that one's a joke, you should see the video for NAYS certific'n in football. Or maybe Pop Warner uses the same thing! Come to think of it, I think I reviewed the NAYS video here 2 yrs. ago. Oh yeah, here. NAYS=NYSCA. And it appears my memory was faulty -- I noted at the time that they actually did say to put the face mask on the opponent's breast plate! |
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