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Post by brophy on Aug 11, 2006 11:46:41 GMT -6
...but pride points will be a monster book keeping nightmare for a disorganized coach and staff....on the other hand...suppose you had a bank of 4000 points...and lost points when you didnt show for stuff?....easier to keep track of? i dunno. What happens when a kid with 1900 points runs a 4.4 and the kid with 4000 points runs a 5.5 ? What do the points matter then if they don't determine the depth chart? Genetics are always going to play a part. Some kids can bust their tail in the weight room and only make a 10% strength increase, while others may put in minimal time and come away with great gains thanks to mom, dad, and puberty....what message does that send?
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Post by groundchuck on Aug 11, 2006 12:17:15 GMT -6
My Take is that we give second chances to kids that drop out of school to come back for a GED or finish classes in the summer if they so choose. Letting a kid back in isn't a big deal if it is not a disciplinary issue previously. Consider if the kid is welcome with the kiddos or a cancer, make him earn every spot and prove he is the best players and I think his teammates will welcome him into the fold. Winning is still important and handled right, lessons about hard work will be learned by the team too. I don't think a decision letting him back on the team in this situation is hypocritical. We had a great kid rejoin us last year. He played in grades 9-10, did not want to play for a variety of reasons as a jr. He would have been a captain if he had played as jr. All the kids respected him. I had no problem with him coming out as a senior. HE wound up starting both ways (WR/CB) and was a good player for us. He made a couple huge catches last season too.
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Post by superpower on Aug 11, 2006 13:34:37 GMT -6
The best man has to play. Remember, as head coach, you have a responsibility to the whole team to put the best 11 on the field. I agree with the coaches above who pointed out that this is still high school football and each season is a new beginning.
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Post by wildcat on Aug 11, 2006 16:38:39 GMT -6
Again, fellas...I appreciate all the feedback. I seem to be in the minority opinion here. All of you make very good points...
With that being said, I think that a bigger issue within our program is why does this happen in the first place? For many of you guys whose opinion I have come to respect, this kind of thing probably doesn't happen very often in your program...the idea of a kid "taking a year off" is probably pretty alien to you guys.
So, I guess that the REAL question I should be asking is why are kids NOT playing four years?
Happened again yesterday...kid we were counting on to play TE for us turned his gear in and said, "I'm taking the year, but I will probably come back out next year".
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Post by blb on Aug 11, 2006 17:02:49 GMT -6
A lot of kids these days, if they can't be a lead dog, don't want to be a dog at all. If they don't see themselves starting or in some cases starring even, they don't want to put in the time and effort to be a team member.
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Post by coachjd on Aug 11, 2006 18:28:28 GMT -6
wildcat,
Last year our MLB was an all-conf kid for us his senior year. As a junior he did not come out so he could play in a fall baseball league. Our defense was pretty good with him in the lineup last year.
I think we have too many parents that don't make kids stand by any type of comittment. Parents are not providing good advice for the these 16-18 yr old kids, so they end up making decisions on their own and sometimes it can be the wrong decision. We try to tell our kids that we all make mistakes everyday. We need to learn from our mistakes and move on.
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Post by khalfie on Aug 11, 2006 18:30:40 GMT -6
The truth of the matter is ...
Kids have a multitude of options. And gifted kids have even more options...
With that being said, the staff may want to look at their standard operating procedures and assess if there are certain things you could be doing better to keep your kids... or somethings you might not want to continue doing, so that you don't lose your kids...
THe fact that you are losing, "productive players", should be a cause for concern... Most kids just want some attention... and "productive kids" usually get it...
I'm proud to say... during my tough years... and yes, all of my HC years were tough years, we never lost a kid... we lost games, but never any kids.
But I'm just sayin'
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Post by groundchuck on Aug 11, 2006 20:55:03 GMT -6
The statement about a kid who can't be the lead dog...the player I mentioned kind of had that issue. His sophomore year he had 3 talented RBs ahead of him and was not good enough to start at reciever or DB so he played special teams and got a few carries. So he felt slighted...or maybe his parents did. Who knows. Bottom line is the kid realized he liked football and the comraderie too much and came back. I guess we were doing something right in our program after all. If a kid leaves, realized he missed it and came back before it was too late.
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Post by tog on Aug 11, 2006 21:26:03 GMT -6
wildcat
kids can be stupid and or ignorant
who knows what the heck they are thinking
just try and talk to them about the positives of playing
show you care about them in other aspects of their lives,
they will come out
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Post by wildcat on Aug 11, 2006 21:31:42 GMT -6
This has been a great discussion, fellas. I have started to re-evaluate alot of my philosophy because of what I have read here.
One of the big things I realized is that as football coaches, we have a duty to prepare young men for the real world. And, in the real world, sometimes, you are disappointed. Sometimes you bust your butt and do everything you can, but it still isn't enough. No matter what you do, there is a good chance that there is going to be someone else who is bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, more handsome, or better-connected than you are. To a large extent, we are defined not how we handle success, but how we handle disappointment.
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Post by coachjd on Aug 11, 2006 21:36:29 GMT -6
well said wildcat.
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Post by texas21 on Aug 11, 2006 21:51:48 GMT -6
I am probably the minority here, but if all the other kids have really been there busting their butt, working in the weight room, learning the system, and working as hard as they can to be bigger, stronger and faster, this kid is going to bust his butt to get the job.
Competition is going to help your team.
Can't you have some packages where this kid can line up and contribute? Can't you start the begining of the year with the other kids starting and this guy subbing in and out?
What about kick off or punt return?
Just some other ideas...
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Post by wildcat on Aug 11, 2006 22:08:37 GMT -6
texas21 -
I think that is the direction in which we are moving...
We put pads on for the first time tomorrow. What we decided to do as a staff was to keep this kid on the scout teams only for the first week. We felt that would be long enough for him to "earn" a spot (won't even take that long...kid is a stud).
Idea is that he will play scout team for a week. During that week's time, it will become obvious that he is one of the best 11 and we will start working him in probably at TE, RB, and LB the next week (first game is the Friday of that week.)
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Post by coachjd on Aug 12, 2006 6:41:43 GMT -6
sounds like you guys have a good plan for the kid. Good luck Wilcat.
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Post by thehawke on Aug 12, 2006 19:08:32 GMT -6
A problem that I see today in comparison to the past, especially at the smaller schools, is that the coach has "pre-determined" his starters. This not only turns kids off because they see a snowball in hell chance of starting, but also the kid who is the predetermined one figures that he doesn't have to bust his butt because he is a chosen one and the kid who decides to stick it out feels that he isn't going to bust his bust because, again, he has a snowball in hell chance of starting. Use a depth chart daily and don't choose your starters too early. And the kid who is close but isn't going to start may have worked hard enough to find his way on to a special team or can do one or two different plays better than some others. Don't forget him completely. Hawke
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Post by blb on Aug 12, 2006 19:13:18 GMT -6
Excellent point, Hawke, but not limited to small schools. I have been guilty of this myself.
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Post by airman on Aug 13, 2006 9:21:55 GMT -6
Here is my take on the subject. With all the offseason conditioning programs, summer camps and practices kids think they are entitled to be a starter just because they show up.
I think this entitlement has come from parents who want some bang for their buck. If they are going to send their kids to football camps, foot the bill, they want some thing in return for their money.
summer contact days are both good and bad. good from the stand point you get to gage the players you have. Bad from the stand point, there are just kids who do not want to do the summer practicing but are good or better athletes then those who show up to practice.
While I think football can do wonders to develop character, persistance and all those great qualities, however, they do not keep coaches from getting fired. It is putting W's on the board and this means the best players have to play.
me, I would put him at 2nd or 3rd string, tell him he has to beat the other guys out before he can get playing time. he has to earn his spot. I would say the same to all kids.
this is why I like wisconsin's very limited summer contact. kids know they have to get it done in training camp.
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Post by blb on Aug 13, 2006 10:52:33 GMT -6
Well-put, airman. I am in total agreement.
I hate starting two-a-days mad at the kids who haven't been to every workout, every day of camp in the summer.
But I try to remember, at this level particularly, football is not as important to everyone as it is to me. As you say, when you've been fired before, it's hard.
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Post by coachcalande on Aug 18, 2006 4:27:24 GMT -6
...but pride points will be a monster book keeping nightmare for a disorganized coach and staff....on the other hand...suppose you had a bank of 4000 points...and lost points when you didnt show for stuff?....easier to keep track of? i dunno. What happens when a kid with 1900 points runs a 4.4 and the kid with 4000 points runs a 5.5 ? What do the points matter then if they don't determine the depth chart? Genetics are always going to play a part. Some kids can bust their tail in the weight room and only make a 10% strength increase, while others may put in minimal time and come away with great gains thanks to mom, dad, and puberty....what message does that send? broph this is the eternal conflict for a coach, i believe that to build a program beyond just one game and one season you have to start with policy and tradition...if its "the fast kid plays" then its aweful tough to get slow kids to want to bust their arses for ya...but the majority of kids will be slow. ill take the most invested and most dedicated and build my team around them. teh speedy kid would have to do mroe than just show up with 4.4 to play. period.
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Post by brophy on Aug 18, 2006 6:28:08 GMT -6
I think the HARDEST part for a kid not participating in stuff isn't the strength gains he could've gotten with your routines (could work out anywhere), not the learning time with your system (how hard is it to learn football?), not the T-shirts for showing up (you can buy a T shirt), but the ACCEPTANCE FROM HIS PEERS, that you can't buy, can't coach, can't mandate as a team...
That is the bottom line in this scenario and with the GAME in general. You have a corps of players who have invested, who are busting their tails...they don't just let anyone in a spot / into their circle of trust. You can encourage a team mate all you want but if you don't trust their toughness, their willingness to go to war with you on any given play, you (AND THE TEAM) WILL NOT ACCEPT THEM AS A 'MEMBER' OF THE TEAM.
That is the beauty of football (imo)....you can take guys from any economic background, any walk of life, any creed, or color, and put them together battling and they will all kill for one another, because they RESPECT each other's investment / toughness. If you've ever had those 'selfish' players in a season, you see how they are treated differently - just don't gel with the group - never get in a rhythm - can't fake following the same heart beat.
If the PROGRAM is built on a peer culture of competitiveness, you can accept the "orphans" and not lose a beat, so long as their intentions are FOR the team (and not themselves).
And those are things that cannot be done in just the Varsity years.....the grunt work of a program is done in the feeder schools and freshmen programs.
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easternkycoach
Freshmen Member
Just a squirrel tryin' to get a nut!
Posts: 92
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Post by easternkycoach on Aug 22, 2006 3:21:16 GMT -6
I tell my kids all the time, "I will teach who comes, those that show up will get the best I can offer them in practice and meetings every day. Those that use their knowledge and skills to better the team this season will play." If a kid gives you attendence, attention to detail, great effort, performs on the field, and is of good character, how can you not embrace him?
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Post by bulldog on Aug 22, 2006 14:31:04 GMT -6
Exactly EasternKyCoach. It's just silly to think we are running NFL-style programs and will punish players who don't work out with the team and come to our mini-camps. Football is an after school SPORT. And this new-way of thinking that teenagers should commit their lives to football is just insane. I played 3/4 sports when I was young. Football is what I played from August to November. It's crazy to say that a kid can't play because they don't come to a voluntary spring or summer program, earn enough 'points', or meet some arbitrary attendance goal. Football should be a sport of inclusion and as coaches, we should be trying to get as many kids exposed to our sport as possible. Not because we can win more games, but because we can teach more young boys how to lead and become good men.
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