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Post by wildcat on Aug 10, 2006 15:47:40 GMT -6
...handle this situation?
We are a small, rural football program with about 20 varsity football players. Today, a kid who hasn't played football since his freshman year decided to come out for his senior year.
His freshman year, he was the best player on a good frosh-soph team. He hasn't played in two years, but, looking at him today, he hasn't lost much. He's about 6', about 190 pounds, strong, can run all day, and has a nasty streak in him. (kid is a top amateur race car driver and does demolition derbies for fun).
Chances are really good that he will be one of the best players on the varsity squad. My question to you guys is what would his status be in your program? Would a kid who hasn't played football in two years be able to be a starter? Even if that means bumping a kid who has played all through high school?
Again, keep in mind that we are NOT a big, suburban program with 70 varsity players. Right now, we are sitting at 21 juniors and seniors.
To further complicate matters, we are a co-op program and are in the last year of our contract with the cooperating school. Rumor around town is that several school board members are looking for an excuse to not renew the co-op contract and either co-op with a different school or go on our own. If we manage a playoff season, it will make it tough for those people who want to break up the co-op. This kid is a real difference maker who could probably help us win 1-2 extra games that could get us to the playoffs.
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Post by brophy on Aug 10, 2006 15:54:51 GMT -6
what is the problem?
I guess it would boil down to your program standards? Do you have a long dogma and signed agreements that players have to make 100% workouts year round?
If he "fits" (with the team....team accepts him and respects him) I don't see an issue. But that's just me, and I'm no Lombardi.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 10, 2006 16:00:33 GMT -6
Have a meeting with the team and ask them what they think, especially if you've been requiring them to attend workouts throughout the year.
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Post by wildcat on Aug 10, 2006 16:02:48 GMT -6
Just curious if any coaches have a philosophy for dealing with a situation like this. For example, our basketball coach won't start a kid on varsity unless he has played his freshman and sophomore year. The kid may play, but he won't start any games.
Again, may be making a mountain out of a molehill, but, if this kid starts, that means a senior or junior who has played two or three years and participated in all summer workouts is probably getting bumped out of their slot.
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Post by brophy on Aug 10, 2006 16:07:59 GMT -6
if this kid starts, that means a senior or junior who has played two or three years and participated in all summer workouts is probably getting bumped out of their slot. Were you hired to win games or organize a charity event? Sorry - its been a long day....I'll stop with my crass comments. Just trying to keep your thread alive, wildcat. Its tough in Illinois! |
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Post by wildcat on Aug 10, 2006 16:22:04 GMT -6
Were you hired to win games or organize a charity event? Are those the only choices? I would like to think that I was hired to teach kids that if they bust their asses, work hard, and perform, their efforts will be rewarded with a fair chance to win a starting position. Now, it seems like I get to teach the kids that if they work hard and bust their asses, they will get to play unless some guy who hasn't done anything other than be a member of the Lucky DNA Club shows up on the first day of practice. So why work hard? Why put in all of that time and effort if the coach is going to reward it by playing some kid who had better things to do the last few years just because he is a genetic freak? |
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Post by coachcalande on Aug 10, 2006 17:18:18 GMT -6
Cat- being a middle school coach/jr high coach who spends 90% of his waking life dreaming about running a football program and of course encountering similar situations but on a different age level...i think you prevent this from happening in the first place with PRIDE POINTS. what are they? they are status, rank, investment points...that is, every time a kid shows up for practice, games, workouts, competitions, open gyms, fund raisers, meetings, tutoring, As on the report card, honor roles, no discipline referalls, other sports, and any other good thing you can think of....well, they earn points....In my program manual i believe i talk about the kids earning them as early as their frosh year IF THEY MOVE UP TO JV BALL and if they start working out at the conclusion of their 8th grade season....imagine how far ahead an invested kid would be over a boy in this situation? might just make that other boy say "darn, i think ill just keep playing otherwise, ill not have any points"....because i hear all the time "im gonna concentrate on basketball" and when they dont cut it, they come back to football....too little too late. im not thinking that this is a perfect solution, dont for a second think i have even tried it...its just an idea...but pride points will be a monster book keeping nightmare for a disorganized coach and staff....on the other hand...suppose you had a bank of 4000 points...and lost points when you didnt show for stuff?....easier to keep track of? i dunno.
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Post by jjkuenzel on Aug 10, 2006 17:50:20 GMT -6
I would tell the team at the first practice that the guys who worked hard in the off season and have been a part of the program all through high school will have the first opportunity to win starting spots. After that, the guys who will give you the best opportunity to compete and win will start. Ultimately you have to play your best kids.
I would also look at it from the other kids perspective. If you don't start him and the kids look over and see someone who is a difference maker and can help them win on the sidelines, you may face a player backlash. Talk to your captains and see how they feel about it.
Come Monday, I may be in this very situation myself. We may have a kid who hasn't played since 9th grade come out for his senior year. Fantastic basketball player and just a natural athlete. I have little doubt in my mind that if he comes out he will start both ways for us at WR and DB. The kids who have come out all through high school will get the first shot, but if he proves he is better than he will start and play and I have no problem with that.
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Post by chiefscoach on Aug 10, 2006 18:01:25 GMT -6
Make him earn his spot. Make him be #2 until he takes it from the kid in front of him. Once he does I think he should play and even start no doubt.
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Post by khalfie on Aug 10, 2006 18:21:40 GMT -6
Exsqueeze me?
Dude... your basketball coach is insane... you put your best on the field... period...
That' "bust your butt, attend all summer camps and practices..." is the difference maker... that is, if you have two kids that both can get it done, you go with the kid more committed to the team.
However, there is the "stud factor"... and the stud factor states, any kid, that isn't a cancer, but has come out of nowhere to bless your program, is to be looked upon as a gift, and cherished as such...
What if this kid just moved into your district... what would be your philosophy then?
Isn't the objective of your program to get all of your athletes out of the hallways and onto the playing field? How is that accomplished by punishing kids who didn't see the light their sophomore or junior years?
You said it yourself, "I would like to think that I was hired to teach kids that if they bust their asses, work hard, and perform, their efforts will be rewarded with a fair chance to win a starting position." The key words are "FAIR CHANCE TO..." Everyone has a chance... this kid is better... he earned the spot...
Its not like he's missing double sessions or something...
You know I know small school ball... and my entire objective, my first and only years and my two struggling small schools, were to get the studs out... you'd be an idiot to do anything besides show the rest of your student population that you have an open door policy.
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Post by wildcat on Aug 10, 2006 19:00:28 GMT -6
Cat- being a middle school coach/jr high coach who spends 90% of his waking life dreaming about running a football program and of course encountering similar situations but on a different age level...i think you prevent this from happening in the first place with PRIDE POINTS. what are they? they are status, rank, investment points...that is, every time a kid shows up for practice, games, workouts, competitions, open gyms, fund raisers, meetings, tutoring, As on the report card, honor roles, no discipline referalls, other sports, and any other good thing you can think of....well, they earn points....In my program manual i believe i talk about the kids earning them as early as their frosh year IF THEY MOVE UP TO JV BALL and if they start working out at the conclusion of their 8th grade season....imagine how far ahead an invested kid would be over a boy in this situation? might just make that other boy say "darn, i think ill just keep playing otherwise, ill not have any points"....because i hear all the time "im gonna concentrate on basketball" and when they dont cut it, they come back to football....too little too late. im not thinking that this is a perfect solution, dont for a second think i have even tried it...its just an idea...but pride points will be a monster book keeping nightmare for a disorganized coach and staff....on the other hand...suppose you had a bank of 4000 points...and lost points when you didnt show for stuff?....easier to keep track of? i dunno. Coach - I like the idea...really puts the responsibility on the kids and takes a lot of the guesswork out. At our school, the precedent has always been that the best play..If a guy comes out as a senior and has never played before but is the best at his position, he will play. That's probably what will happen in this case. |
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Post by wildcat on Aug 10, 2006 19:21:29 GMT -6
Exsqueeze me? Dude... your basketball coach is insane... Most people, including the basketball coach, would not disagree with you. What if this kid just moved into your district... what would be your philosophy then? Last I checked, few 14-17 year old kids have a choice whether or not their parents move... In this case, this kid just didn't feel like playing football his sophomore and junior year. He had better things to do (his words). Isn't the objective of your program to get all of your athletes out of the hallways and onto the playing field? How is that accomplished by punishing kids who didn't see the light their sophomore or junior years? Sure, but what good is it if kids think that they can take a year off here and there? Kind of hard to plan and depend on kids if you let 'em come and go as they please. Where's the accountability? You know I know small school ball... and my entire objective, my first and only years and my two struggling small schools, were to get the studs out... you'd be an idiot to do anything besides show the rest of your student population that you have an open door policy. Again, the problem with your "open door", at least in my opinion, is that there isn't any committment...what incentive do kids have to work hard and do things in the offseason to improve themselves? Isn't there any accountability if a kid you are depending on takes a year off and then comes out as a senior? I guess what it comes down to is that I don't believe that the best should always play...I'm going to do everything in my power to ensure that a senior who busted his ass for four years and has made a commitment to me gets that commitment returned. That's the least I can do. |
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Post by phantom on Aug 10, 2006 19:37:14 GMT -6
...handle this situation? We are a small, rural football program with about 20 varsity football players. Today, a kid who hasn't played football since his freshman year decided to come out for his senior year. His freshman year, he was the best player on a good frosh-soph team. He hasn't played in two years, but, looking at him today, he hasn't lost much. He's about 6', about 190 pounds, strong, can run all day, and has a nasty streak in him. (kid is a top amateur race car driver and does demolition derbies for fun). Chances are really good that he will be one of the best players on the varsity squad. My question to you guys is what would his status be in your program? Would a kid who hasn't played football in two years be able to be a starter? Even if that means bumping a kid who has played all through high school? Again, keep in mind that we are NOT a big, suburban program with 70 varsity players. Right now, we are sitting at 21 juniors and seniors. To further complicate matters, we are a co-op program and are in the last year of our contract with the cooperating school. Rumor around town is that several school board members are looking for an excuse to not renew the co-op contract and either co-op with a different school or go on our own. If we manage a playoff season, it will make it tough for those people who want to break up the co-op. This kid is a real difference maker who could probably help us win 1-2 extra games that could get us to the playoffs. If he's committed to playing this year then he plays. He starts at the bottom of the depth chart but if he's the best player-if he makes the team better- he plays. You owe that to the rest of the players on the team. |
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Post by wildcat on Aug 10, 2006 19:46:24 GMT -6
fellas - Appreciate the feedback... The kid will help, but it's gonna be tough when we have to tell the kid who has been playing his position that he is now #2. I guess that's why we get the big bucks, right?  |
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Post by phantom on Aug 10, 2006 19:57:55 GMT -6
Whoah. I certainly wouldn't make him an instant starter. Make him earn it.
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Post by khalfie on Aug 10, 2006 20:13:02 GMT -6
Cat...
Again, the problem with your "open door", at least in my opinion, is that there isn't any committment...what incentive do kids have to work hard and do things in the offseason to improve themselves? Isn't there any accountability if a kid you are depending on takes a year off and then comes out as a senior?
I like you, because you are such a deep thinker... but listen to what you are saying...
A kid... who had no allegiances with the team... no personal relationship with you coaches... no interest in football... now wants to... have an allegiance with the team, a personal relationship with the coaches, and an interest in football...
You want to punish instead of applaud?
Ok... so you have this other kid... let's just say for "example" this kid is butt ugly... but he loves football, comes to every camp, hits the weights, stays after to talk schemes with the coach... can't catch, slow as death, and only weighs 110 lbs... do you start him? Where's your allegiances now?
That's what I thought...
The committment to the program is the coaches responsibility... an inability to get that accomplished will undoubtedly speak to the success of the program... however, when a child determines to be a man... is not to be questioned... but acknowledged and applauded...
If he does from that point... what is asked of the team... then there should be no question!
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Post by coachcb on Aug 10, 2006 20:13:34 GMT -6
I like your idea calande- I am always look for ways to hold the kids accountable for everything. I really like taking into account their grades- good fashioned Coach Carter discipline!
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Post by thehawke on Aug 10, 2006 20:14:30 GMT -6
In total agreement with phantom. Our players are told that each season is new and that no position starter is predetermined. Kids who have started previous years always #1 on the depth chart. It usually comes down to the fact that it is their position to lose, especially if they started the year before. The kids who have come everyday in off season workouts, especially the summer and who bust their humps when they do come are moved up the depth chart. Your young man starts at the bottom and he and the others will realize that he must "earn" his position. He may wind up making your other kids at the position better. Hawke
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Post by groundchuck on Aug 10, 2006 21:01:45 GMT -6
Make him compete for the spot. The cream rises to the top. Maybe the kid(s) who he competing with for the position won't let it be taken from him. He sounds like a difference maker, and in that case I have found it is best not to cut off your nose to spite your face. Play him, but make him earn it. If the kids see he just gets the spot that is not good. But if he does not get the spot until sometime during the 2nd week of practice b/c he out performed (and knows the plays, is accountable and trust worthy) then I think that is okay. I had a QB transfer in who was a mountain better than the other kid. But I still made him compete for the job. It made him better. |
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Post by coachcalande on Aug 10, 2006 21:10:19 GMT -6
I like your idea calande- I am always look for ways to hold the kids accountable for everything. I really like taking into account their grades- good fashioned Coach Carter discipline! well, its not like i invented the idea...course ill gladly take credit ha ha...no seriously, there are guys all over the country that would say " no way a kid shows up as a senior and plays" because its BAD FOR THE PROGRAM, not bad for that team...you always have to remember, the PROGRAM is bigger than that particular team...the program is all the kids who own it by blood sweat and tears..this boy hasnt bled, he owns nothing. the kid whom he steals time from has alot to lose. winning a game, or winning a few games with this move could actually turn out to be costly in the long run. it could turn away under classmen...i say, develop a policy that starts NOW. you could still earn points in many areas, certain points to wear the uniform, certain amount of points to ride the bus, certain amount of points to eat with the team, certain amount of points to get play time, certain amount of points to be second team anything, certain points to be starter, certain points to be two way player, certain amount of points to be captain...put it all on the kids. giving them ownership is a whole lot more effective in the long run than "ok, well he benches 25 lbs more than you, and hes .03 seconds faster...you are now his backup". (not saying that this is the case, just a goofy example)... ;D |
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Aug 10, 2006 23:53:10 GMT -6
Wildcat,
I can only reply based on what I know... which is what we do.
for us- everyone does the 12 min run (I've put it up before... it's somewhere) UNLESS they are at 80% of the conditioning sessions.
so here are a few scenarios I've had with this:
my 2nd year at a school- a SR comes out- has never played before. I'd never seen him until 1st day of practice. We let him come out. Good athletic kid (6'4 200# DE). 12 minute run is a struggle... takes him 2 weeks, but he completed it, so coaches and more importantly kids think he has earned a right to compete. Turned in to a very good 3rd down/passing situation rush end. Had he played earlier... he could have been a stud. Too much to learn in too short of a time(especially since he had not played football anywhere before that year).
Another 1st time SR (never went out before)- made it to off season conditioning so no need for 12 min. run. No problems giving him a crack at starting jobs on the 1st day (good player- key backup O and D- played all special teams)
Kid who is a junior now. Came to spring camp as an 8th grader- did not go out as a frosh. Came to spring camp and some conditioning as a 9th-10th grader... did not go out as a soph. Did the same this year...he went from "playing for sure" (and taking reps away from guys who needed them) to "probably not" now. At the end of the year, I told him I would respect whatever choice he made- but if he did not play this year, we would not accept him next year. He decided to not go out again- and I will not take him out next year- though he would be a better NT than the one we will have- he's also basically a freshman with 1 year of eligibility (who has "quit" 3 times) and he will be slightly "better" (by about 50 lbs.) than a freshman (8th this year) with 4 years of eligibility.
We have had several move-ins. Of course we let them play- some have contributed a lot... some did not, but all had an opportunity (some just did not have the ability or background to compete)
We too are a small school... and i don't know if any of that helped. Coachcal, chiefscoach, phantom... others said it well... make him earn it if he has not satisfied your program requirements to this point- if he has, then for us, I'd let him compete on day 1.
You know what he has done... base it on that.
RE:Khalfie's statement:
A kid... who had no allegiances with the team... no personal relationship with you coaches... no interest in football... now wants to... have an allegiance with the team, a personal relationship with the coaches, and an interest in football...
Good point... but to say it before practice starts and then to do it ONCE practice starts are two different things in my mind. This is especially true if he let teammates down in the past (don't know if that is the situation here... this is more of a "close to home issue" for me). Fool me once- shame on you... fool me twice- shame on me.
Just try to not get fooled... but if you do get fooled, which can happen, make sure you are NOT the bearer of the shame. Wildcat is really the only one who knows if and how many times this kid has tried to "fool", but if he has not proven to be trustworthy, he has to prove that first before he gets the opportunity to shoulder so much responsibility as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by bulldog on Aug 11, 2006 0:09:21 GMT -6
This is high school football. This talk about a 'program' being 4 years is not something I embrace. Football is broken down into seasons. And each one is different. We let kids reinvent themselves each year.
If you have rules about your spring/summer program, well, you'll have to be consistent. We cannot 'require' our kids to come to our spring and summer programs. If they show up for the first day of fall practice and can beat out an established player . . . .well, that's football. You earn your starting/playing position each day. The benefit of showing up every day is that you get better and have a better chance of winning the position.
However, to me it doesn't matter if the kid is a difference maker or not. What would you do if a kid had to skip a season because he had to support his family by working? Or had to babysit a sibling every day? Or was held out by his parents because his grades weren't good enough? Or volunteered at the boys club because that was important to him? Or had transportation issues? Or was a skier with a shot at the Olympics? Or was competing for a prestigious scholarship award and had 5 hours of homework every day? Or wrote a thesis on particle theory to get admited to MIT? Or had to care for an elderly relative? Or he just never played before and had a growth spurt?
The point is that you will make exceptions - regardless of the number of 'point's' he earned. Accountability is to this year's team, not a team that played several years ago. Embrace the kid and bring him into your team structure. For him, it may not be about starting, but about what football can teach him. The relationships that you and his teammates develop could be very beneficial for all parties.
To me, you give him a chance to beat out whoever is in front of him and start game 1 with your best 11 players on the field. You treat him just like any other kid without the history. If he's there and he's dedicated, he's either one of you, or he's an outsider. I'm with khalfie, put your 'program' ego aside and embrace his enthusiasm.
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Post by wingtol on Aug 11, 2006 5:59:44 GMT -6
We are in a similar numbers position as you are and I can tell you one thing, we will take anyone at anytime who wants to play. It's been beaten to death over and over already but if he can play and eanrs the spot so be it. Life isn't always fair if he is better than the "vetran" at his position then so be it. A great head coach I respect greatly used to say Football is the only true example of a meritocracy, in other words you get what you deserve based on how you preform. It's High School Football if a kid wants to play they should have the right to play. We put out best on the field based on their participation once the offical first day of practice starts. If they don't show during the season then they don't play. You don't need points, attendace %'s, team approval from the off season to give the kid a chance to play.
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Post by tog on Aug 11, 2006 6:00:01 GMT -6
I would say the basketball guy is insano as well
lebron james walks in and he won't play him?
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Post by brophy on Aug 11, 2006 7:39:14 GMT -6
I'm with Khalife. These are kids....I didn't know what I wanted to do in life when I was 24, let alone 14.....expecting me to be 24/7 football from the time I started liking girls is a little wild, in my opinion. Again, it comes down to the big picture - WE WANT KIDS TO PLAY FOOTBALL - WE WANT ATHLETES TO PLAY FOOTBALL - don't make this harder than it has to be.
Sure, we all want to be great leaders, molders of men...but lets face it. You're not going to save the world by running a paracult, mafioso pecking order. REWARD the good, PUNISH the bad. If a kid is a real stroke, if you are rewarding the kids are busting their tails THEY will run those turds off your squad-- the coach won't have to lift a finger. If a kid doesn't put in the work, who is it really hurting? Not me....as long as I'm encouraging as many kids to come out as possible. We are encouraging stagnancy by guaranteeing slots for "our guys" by letting them know that as long as no one with more seniority wants their spot, they will have it for life. If I say, "the best athletes will play - don't get left behind"....you'll work your darndest to make sure you become that best athlete.
These are kids, don't expect them to be making life long choices like adults at 14.
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Post by coachjd on Aug 11, 2006 7:45:46 GMT -6
unless there is a lack of equipment, all kids should have an opportunity to come out for the team. Do they need to play?? That depends on how hard they work in practice, how well they accept coaching, how fast do they pick up the fundamentals and assignments.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Aug 11, 2006 8:26:07 GMT -6
Brophy,
You and I were probably a lot alike in HS (my screen name was not a random choice...)
These are kids, don't expect them to be making life long choices like adults at 14.
I agree. And I agree, based on what Wildcat has said, the kid should be allowed to compete for a spot. But while we may not want them to make lifelong choices at 14... some choices made are lifelong (see the bike/skateboard thread). If the structure of your program is to teach kids accountability, you have to demand it. There has to be something he can "earn back" if he has not done what was expected prior to today. Our program runs by a seemingly similar structure as Wildcats... and if I give in we have damage to the program that will be very difficult to repair.(Remember my wedding thread? That kid is a complete stud-probably the best player in the state in our class- but with how our program is set up- if I let him go without some penalty, I've got 23 other players that turn in to the volleyball team and moan and complain and wonder why they did all of this pre-season work... at this point I am not willing to jeopardize 18 years worth of building a program for one player).
I will still recommend for Wildcat, to have something in place where he could earn back what he has missed...even if he invents it now (make-up work to get him "up to speed"... running, lifting, washing your car... something) In THIS situation, the player in question, the team and the coaches will likely feel a lot better about this kid being "part of the program"...and then the best man wins and the griping will be kept to a minimum.
For those who have a more open door policy... that's great...I am not suggesting to do it MY way or WILDCAT'S way. But since we have already implemented a certain structure... we need to stick to it. Maybe my way is wrong- looking at the board there is a definite split. But wrong as I (we) may be, we've already started down this road and I don't think it could be changed at this moment without it being seen as a compensating. I know Bulldog and I disagree on a lot of issues, and we are probably on opposite sides of the fence again... but I always respect his viewpoint.... and even he said you have to be consistent.
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Post by seagull73 on Aug 11, 2006 8:56:26 GMT -6
I don't care if the kid has ever played before. If he is a stud and is a good kid why does it matter? If he is a student in your school he has the right to try out. If he is the best and wins a position so be it.
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Post by brophy on Aug 11, 2006 9:01:46 GMT -6
if a kid wanted to run track in the Spring, but didn't ask the coach last September, would it be legitimate to tell he he can't run for you?
I don't believe anyone is advocating handing ANY kid a starting spot (heaven help you if you are), but what hoops must a kid jump through to be given an opportunity to compete?
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Post by ogie4 on Aug 11, 2006 11:40:47 GMT -6
My Take is that we give second chances to kids that drop out of school to come back for a GED or finish classes in the summer if they so choose. Letting a kid back in isn't a big deal if it is not a disciplinary issue previously. Consider if the kid is welcome with the kiddos or a cancer, make him earn every spot and prove he is the best players and I think his teammates will welcome him into the fold. Winning is still important and handled right, lessons about hard work will be learned by the team too. I don't think a decision letting him back on the team in this situation is hypocritical.
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