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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 18, 2012 20:19:56 GMT -6
hope its not considered blasphemous but why does football have two-a-days? Very few other sports do it - why is it necessary in football? Is it just something that we have always done in the past or is it really needed in football.
I when I say two-a-days - i mean both the old fashioned two-a-days or the relatively new 5- hour sessions where two practices are put in 5 hour period.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 18, 2012 20:42:18 GMT -6
I've been around several volleyball programs that run two a days. When I was in college we had two a days over Christmas break for the wrestling team. I coached at a place where the baseball team would have hitting in the AM and regular practice in the PM. I would consider that two a day.
I would imagine the reason probably has to do with we're the only sport (other than volleyball) that really starts practices before 8 hours of the kids' day is eaten up by school.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 18, 2012 21:30:11 GMT -6
Probably because one coach did it once to squeeze in more practices and everyone started doing it to keep up with the joneses. I'm not sure it's really worth the squeeze.
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Post by Coach.A on Jul 18, 2012 22:01:24 GMT -6
Probably because one coach did it once to squeeze in more practices and everyone started doing it to keep up with the joneses. I'm not sure it's really worth the squeeze. I partly agree with this ^, but I think you also need to take into consideration the highly structured nature of our sport. Every step of every play is planned and needs to be precise. Contrast this to a sports like basketball or hockey that sort of 'flow'. I believe there is far more planning and systems work needed for football compared to other sports and there is almost a mad rush to get it all in before the week 1 game...especially when you add special teams to the equation. |
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Post by fballcoachg on Jul 19, 2012 5:13:30 GMT -6
And there seems to be less time from official practice to games. In basketball and baseball there are open gyms and summer leagues and other opportunities to get skills in, football it seems there is a more specific time frame.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 19, 2012 7:38:17 GMT -6
True, but the second practice is always a bag drive. I'd rather have classroom time than that second practice where nobody has energy. I don't know how those guys do it with just a half-hour break, we tried splitting the team and having them practice back-to-back because the gym was too small, and the coaches were just beat, the last half-hour was not productive.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 19, 2012 8:07:42 GMT -6
True, but the second practice is always a bag drive. I'd rather have classroom time than that second practice where nobody has energy. I don't know how those guys do it with just a half-hour break, we tried splitting the team and having them practice back-to-back because the gym was too small, and the coaches were just beat, the last half-hour was not productive. In my experience, the shorter the break, the more energy they have for that second practice. |
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Post by hsrose on Jul 19, 2012 8:12:37 GMT -6
Back in my day… Double-days were the first time the coaches got the players together, we didn’t have the summer workouts or anything. Passing league was a strange concept and weights was 1 universal set. Our squat rack had been made by a local farmer out of 4” steel pipe and the weights were changed by adding/removing disc blades. The
It was Hell Week because it was pretty much conditioning the first few sessions. We had so many sessions of helmets only and then pads after that. So it was necessary to get the number of practices in so we could get into pads.
Double-days now – carry-over, habit only. Right now we’re practicing 4-day a week, full pads, all summer. Double-days is just an extra session each day, we’re conditioned, the offense/defense are in. It’s the first time we get all the ‘real’ players together.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 19, 2012 8:35:22 GMT -6
True, but the second practice is always a bag drive. I'd rather have classroom time than that second practice where nobody has energy. I don't know how those guys do it with just a half-hour break, we tried splitting the team and having them practice back-to-back because the gym was too small, and the coaches were just beat, the last half-hour was not productive. In my experience, the shorter the break, the more energy they have for that second practice. We didn't have the same players the whole time, but all the same coaches, and we had nothing left to give by the end. We're not that young anymore. |
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Post by fantom on Jul 19, 2012 9:07:52 GMT -6
hope its not considered blasphemous but why does football have two-a-days? Very few other sports do it - why is it necessary in football? Is it just something that we have always done in the past or is it really needed in football. I when I say two-a-days - i mean both the old fashioned two-a-days or the relatively new 5- hour sessions where two practices are put in 5 hour period. There's a lot to do in a little time. Football has more moving parts than other sports and about the same number of practice dates before the first game. Since there's no school going on 2-a-days make sense. |
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Post by holmesbend on Jul 19, 2012 9:38:54 GMT -6
cclement,
I'm with you...I've wondered if they are actually worth it or if they are done merely off perception. I think back to my high school and college days, and the only thing that I could tell was productive was the fact that we had to mentally push through it....which, as we all know, is what football does...it pushes you to the limits, mentally and physically.
We are supposed to start our Two-A-Days next week and we only have 23 kids 10-12, so Im wondering if we need to actually go twice or make it like a little mini camp deal where we only practice once for about 3 hrs (each side about an hour and 20 or so with a 10-20 minute break) followed by film/chalk talks before or after (probably before).
Any ideas?
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Post by fantom on Jul 19, 2012 9:59:47 GMT -6
The only way that I can see that you can eliminate two-a-days would be if you were FULLY platooned. By fully platooned I mean that you have a completely separate offense and defense without sharing athletes at all. Colleges and NFL teams have either cut back on two-a-days or cut them out altogether and that makes sense for them.
We don't platoon. Athough we'll try to avoid two-way starters as much as possible, all of our guys learn an offensive and a defensive position. We have a summer program but can't make it mandatory. I don't see how we could be ready for our first game without two-a days.
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Post by wheels1284 on Jul 19, 2012 10:39:52 GMT -6
You don't see them in other sports that aren't in the fall because the pre-season doesn't take place over summer break. If basketball was a fall sport, I'm sure the coaches would have some sort of two-a-day structure.
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Post by fantom on Jul 19, 2012 10:42:01 GMT -6
You don't see them in other sports that aren't in the fall because the pre-season doesn't take place over summer break. If basketball was a fall sport, I'm sure the coaches would have some sort of two-a-day structure. You can bet on it. |
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Post by tango on Jul 19, 2012 10:47:39 GMT -6
How much summer work have you completed? We only practice once now. Small school and all kids practice on both sides of the ball. Rival school about the same size sends 2 or 3 to the ER every year from the heat. Just not worth it anymore IMO. We normally start off strong.
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Post by blb on Jul 19, 2012 11:09:23 GMT -6
Because of playoff expansion, for over a decade now we have only two weeks of Pre-Season practice (how ever one structures it) before first game week.
I haven't felt like we have enough time since the change, but fortunately we're all in the same boat.
We don't have Spring Football or (legal) "Football classes." All our kids practice both ways. Currently we practice 9-11 am and 1-3 pm.
Like fantom we have a Summer program (conditioning, a few 7-on-7s, three-day camp) but none of it is mandatory.
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 19, 2012 12:08:07 GMT -6
with this summer's heat/drought we would not be allowed to practice 1-3. If the heat index is over 100 we don't practice. Thats why i'm wondering about having a relatively long practice in the morning, then a break, then finish up in the air-conditioned gym/weightroom.
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Post by gschwender on Jul 19, 2012 12:08:15 GMT -6
I know in missouri the rules stated that you could not go full contact until after the third practice. I imagine a coach probably decided to squeeze in more practices on a day so they could have full contact sooner. Now u have to wait until after the third day. I think another reason is that there is so much to put in scheme wise for football, you have to get competent at a bunch of things. Also basketball practices all summer with their "open gyms" try having "open field" for football and see how that flies, (for those who can't have spring ball)
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 19, 2012 12:29:45 GMT -6
Back in my day… Double-days were the first time the coaches got the players together, we didn’t have the summer workouts or anything. Passing league was a strange concept and weights was 1 universal set. Our squat rack had been made by a local farmer out of 4” steel pipe and the weights were changed by adding/removing disc blades. The It was Hell Week because it was pretty much conditioning the first few sessions. We had so many sessions of helmets only and then pads after that. So it was necessary to get the number of practices in so we could get into pads. Double-days now – carry-over, habit only. Right now we’re practicing 4-day a week, full pads, all summer. Double-days is just an extra session each day, we’re conditioned, the offense/defense are in. It’s the first time we get all the ‘real’ players together. I think this is probably the reason the concept started. I see NO POSSIBLE reason for 2 a day practices if a team is already practicing 4 days a week, full pads, all summer. I mean, that essentially makes the football season 6 full months. Crazy. But back when summer was summer...and the football squads would come together a few weeks before the season...double days and "camp" concepts were probably much more necessary. |
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Post by fantom on Jul 19, 2012 12:38:01 GMT -6
Back in my day… Double-days were the first time the coaches got the players together, we didn’t have the summer workouts or anything. Passing league was a strange concept and weights was 1 universal set. Our squat rack had been made by a local farmer out of 4” steel pipe and the weights were changed by adding/removing disc blades. The It was Hell Week because it was pretty much conditioning the first few sessions. We had so many sessions of helmets only and then pads after that. So it was necessary to get the number of practices in so we could get into pads. Double-days now – carry-over, habit only. Right now we’re practicing 4-day a week, full pads, all summer. Double-days is just an extra session each day, we’re conditioned, the offense/defense are in. It’s the first time we get all the ‘real’ players together. I think this is probably the reason the concept started. I see NO POSSIBLE reason for 2 a day practices if a team is already practicing 4 days a week, full pads, all summer. I mean, that essentially makes the football season 6 full months. Crazy. But back when summer was summer...and the football squads would come together a few weeks before the season...double days and "camp" concepts were probably much more necessary. Keep in mind that the situation that you described is not the norm in most states. |
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Post by indian1 on Jul 19, 2012 12:51:32 GMT -6
I agree with fantom on a lot of this stuff.
One thing to throw in. In other sports they play a lot more games in a year than football does. Basketball can have workouts where they play real games, same with baseball, same with volleyball. In football you have to do all of that practicing because you only get 10 games a year. The only time we get to go 11 on 11 and see what everybody looks like is once we start official practice. The other sports see it multiple times during their off-seasons.
That being said. If I was in a state where we could practice full pads basically all summer. No way in hell I'd have 2 a days.
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Post by hsrose on Jul 19, 2012 13:24:36 GMT -6
I'm not speaking for the state of CA, only for the section that I'm in, the North Coast Section of CA. In this section the offices basically close for the summer when the last hole of the men's golf championship is done. At that point we could go full pads, twice a day, 7 days a week, and setup a full competitive league if we wanted to. The only restriction is that we have to have the approval of the school administration to use the facilities and equipment. We handed out pads the 2nd week of June and have been in pads every day since then. There used to be a dead period before official practice started, but I think that has gone away now.
While this is a good thing, I think, for the summer, it is also excruciatingly frustrating trying to coach. As a coach you get a mind-set that this as in-season practice so kids that miss for vacations or whatever start to drive you nuts. You never know if the OL will be there, or the WR, or who will not. If you think summer participation in the weight room is frustrating, try it with pads and trying to keep track of which kids have had which blocking session and tackling days and conditioning, all because we can be in pads.
By the time some of my (JV) players get to our first scrimmage Aug 17, some will have had up to 36 days of practice in full pads. And based on what I hear on these boards I'm still not convinced that we are in any better shape to play than the teams that start in August.
It's a weird thing, this full pads all summer, it does things to your coaching mind.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 19, 2012 13:36:45 GMT -6
Does this 12-month a year thing strike anyone else as being bad for the bigger picture? I'd love to be running a football academy 40 hours a week all year, but are the kids really benefitting or are we just gratifying our own egos?
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Post by fantom on Jul 19, 2012 13:45:09 GMT -6
Does this 12-month a year thing strike anyone else as being bad for the bigger picture? I'd love to be running a football academy 40 hours a week all year, but are the kids really benefitting or are we just gratifying our own egos? I agree but again mention that this is a state-by-state thing and what's mentioned above is not the norm. In my state we can practice year-round (New rule. Until this year we couldn't do anything football-specific) but we can't wear pads or helmets and we can't make it mandatory. Others are more restrictive than ours. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Jul 19, 2012 13:55:32 GMT -6
I appreciate that many states are more limited, but even there everybody's always on the lookout for a loophole, "mandatory" lifting, etc. I'm sure gerrymandered gym classes aren't entirely uncommon. it seems to tie in with the hiring and firing of coaches, who then have a desperate need to win, and you get classical psych at work.
Call me socialist, but I say every coach should be encouraging kids to play other sports and limiting his own seasons, and encouraging kids to lift for the benefit of all sports, but if a kid doesn't want to lift, he's going to be surpassed.
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Post by gschwender on Jul 19, 2012 14:32:14 GMT -6
We can't make lifting mandatory, and I highly stress playing multiple sports, just so long as the other sports do not encroach on football season. Most my football players play atleast another sport, and many play 3, so yeah I'm Gunna b pissed If they skip summer lifting sessions; for the reasons that it will not only hurt football, but also all of the other sports they play since they are competing all year long
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boug
Junior Member
Posts: 363
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Post by boug on Jul 19, 2012 15:05:04 GMT -6
2 a days are absolutely essential. Most teams cant practice over the summer or make things manditory so the 1st time you get to have all your kids together is when the season starts. With practice starting in Mid Aug and having the 1st game the begining of Sept it does not leave a lot of time to install off/def and see who/what you have.
Most other sports you can practice year around (basketball) or they have numerous season (baseball-spring/summer), football is a whole different beast. Just the mental part of the game alone takes a while to get up to speed.
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Post by spos21ram on Jul 20, 2012 18:07:47 GMT -6
In college every fall sport has two a days, not just football. There's a lot to teach with very little time.
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Post by coachbuck on Jul 21, 2012 1:31:23 GMT -6
I'm not speaking for the state of CA, only for the section that I'm in, the North Coast Section of CA. In this section the offices basically close for the summer when the last hole of the men's golf championship is done. At that point we could go full pads, twice a day, 7 days a week, and setup a full competitive league if we wanted to. The only restriction is that we have to have the approval of the school administration to use the facilities and equipment. We handed out pads the 2nd week of June and have been in pads every day since then. There used to be a dead period before official practice started, but I think that has gone away now. While this is a good thing, I think, for the summer, it is also excruciatingly frustrating trying to coach. As a coach you get a mind-set that this as in-season practice so kids that miss for vacations or whatever start to drive you nuts. You never know if the OL will be there, or the WR, or who will not. If you think summer participation in the weight room is frustrating, try it with pads and trying to keep track of which kids have had which blocking session and tackling days and conditioning, all because we can be in pads. By the time some of my (JV) players get to our first scrimmage Aug 17, some will have had up to 36 days of practice in full pads. And based on what I hear on these boards I'm still not convinced that we are in any better shape to play than the teams that start in August. It's a weird thing, this full pads all summer, it does things to your coaching mind. hsrose I can feel your pain. We are not in full pads but we have been practicing "real football" for the past two weeks and when a kid misses it drives me crazy. Part of the deal I guess. The past couple of years we have not had two a days. This year Im starting them back. All my coaches cant make the A.M. practice so Im going to use this as my special teams time. I cant speak for other states but here in central Cali the school Im at. Basketball has been two a days all summer and tournys on the weekends. Girls vollyball, soccer, softball, baseball still going on all thru summer and very demanding. You almost cannot play two sports anymore and get a fair shake. |
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Post by cqmiller on Jul 21, 2012 16:52:06 GMT -6
We don't do "2-a-days", but we do have morning weights and conditioning followed by a single 2.5 hour practice in the afternoon...
Football has so much more detail and moving parts, it requires much more practice time than a lot of sports. With many places having "cannot start until..." dates, coaches have to cram as many practices into those few weeks as possible to prepare for the most physically challenging sport.
We are in a "helmets only conditioning" period and cannot go full pads or use a football until the 30th of July. 1st Game is on the 17th of August. Short window to put in EVERYTHING
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