dbeck84
Sophomore Member
Posts: 170
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Post by dbeck84 on Jun 15, 2012 7:33:51 GMT -6
Ok, I may just be ranting and this may end up having no effect, but after seeing Terry Bradshaw on Jay Leno saying he wouldn't let his son play football I'm mad as hell and feel like something needs to be done. I believe we should start a list of former pro football players who have come out against playing football. We could use this list to organize boycotts, letter campaigns, whatever. I know I for one will not be watching Fox on Sunday mornings this season. Again, maybe this will have no effect, but I feel like our sport is under attack and the attacks from the people who have made their fame and fortune playing the game are the most damaging. If something isn't done, I truly feel like we will all but out of coaching in the next 10 years.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 15, 2012 8:21:00 GMT -6
You have to remember that Terry Bradshaw will say ANYTHING to get attention.
And he's a giant douchebag.
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Post by irishdog on Jun 15, 2012 8:31:48 GMT -6
Unfortunately a lot of people like to point the finger, and lay blame on others, or other things, for their own choices they have made in their lives. Terry Bradshaw, and all of those pro football players who are suing the NFL are just such people. They KNEW what they were getting into, and they CHOSE to become professional football players in the National Football League, and now, with their health suffering, but after enjoying the lights and the glamour that were part of the lifestyle they led, they now look for a scapegoat to blame for their problems. And what do their children learn from this??
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 15, 2012 8:35:41 GMT -6
You have to remember that Terry Bradshaw will say ANYTHING to get attention. And he's a giant douchebag. Yup, and without the opportunities football has provided him, he'd have done jack $hit with his life. His IQ is about 80. It's disappointing that he's bad mouthing a game that has provided him with a steady job and income.
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Post by fantom on Jun 15, 2012 8:56:25 GMT -6
We're going to need to have answers. It's not going to be good enough to just say, "Well, it's a tough game".
I suggest using common sense. Look at your old HS teammates. Other than guys who have substance abuse issues, do you know a lot of guys who have mental problems that may have been brought on by playing football? I don't and I played in the early '70s when the concussion test was, "How many fingers? Close enough. Go get 'em".
Tell people that. Point out the new rules about concussions. I believe that, coached properly, the game is relatively safe. Get the word out. We're missionaries now.
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dbeck84
Sophomore Member
Posts: 170
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Post by dbeck84 on Jun 15, 2012 9:00:25 GMT -6
I agree we're going to need to spread the good word fantom, but I'm worried that we will end up being insufficient. We can't stand up against the media frenzy especially when they have NFL hall of famers on their side. I've always wanted to become a head varsity football coach and I'm legitimately afraid that high school football will become a thing of the past before I get my shot.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 15, 2012 9:30:01 GMT -6
"Don't argue with an idiot. They have more experience and will drag you down to their level."
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Post by fantom on Jun 15, 2012 10:06:51 GMT -6
as I've said before - no one forced them to play football. They act like had they known ahead of time they would have chosen a different path in life which is complete BS. Back in their day a knee injury was a career ender - and yet they still played knowing full good and well they may limp around the rest of their lives. Some jobs have risk - I don't hear wounded soldiers saying "I didn't know people would be shooting real bullets at me and if they hit me I may lose a leg, and arm, my vision, my life." NO - it is an understood risk, they take it willingly and it costs them what it costs them. Former NFL players need to nut up and just say "It was my decision, I made it, I did it, and it costs me what it costs me it's my own fault." Personally I could careless and I don't want to hear it. These guys were paid millions of dollars to play a game. They aren't driving around in a 97' Jeep with 340,000 miles on it trying to make it on a teacher's salary so as far as I'm concerned - STFU...you got paid millions of dollars to do a job for 8 years and now 15 years after you retired at age 35 you have some health issues? STFU no one cares. Heck, I think half of these guy who are complaining just want the attention again. They want their face back in the media. I saw Jim McMahon on ESPN talking about it one day...HAHA...seriously? Shut up Jim, no one liked you then either. I think the better question is who DON'T you see? You don't see any old timers Jim Brown, Ozzie Smith, etc, you also don't see too many defensive players on the complaint list. Strictly as it relates to the NFL I agree with you. The fact is it's our problem now. John Knight (I think it was) posted an article about a school director who proposed banning HS football. She won't be the last. Let's face it, Mama never wanted Junior to play football. Now she has an excuse. All of the tough talk about choice and how it's healthy for a kid to do risky things? I agree with that. That will NOT win the argument, though.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 15, 2012 11:47:46 GMT -6
I don't understand why some can't differentiate between PRO FOOTBALL and HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL. Because they see violent collisons on TV on Sundays and hear old pros spouting off, some won't let their kids even play in high school. The impact of collisons in the pro game are tenfold higher than high school football. Plus, these pros are playing 1200-1400 (16 games x 80 snaps) snaps a year. These brain injuries etc, are a result of thousands of collisions with guys that are 240 lbs and run a 4.5. High school and pro football are completely different animals, it's just sad some can't understand that.
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Post by fantom on Jun 15, 2012 11:52:56 GMT -6
I don't understand why some can't differentiate between PRO FOOTBALL and HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL. Because they see violent collisons on TV on Sundays and hear old pros spouting off, some won't let their kids even play in high school. The impact of collisons in the pro game are tenfold higher than high school football. Plus, these pros are playing 1200-1400 (16 games x 80 snaps) snaps a year. These brain injuries etc, are a result of thousands of collisions with guys that are 240 lbs and run a 4.5. High school and pro football are completely different animals, it's just sad some can't understand that. Be ready to explain it then.
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Post by amikell on Jun 15, 2012 12:11:07 GMT -6
These guys were paid millions of dollars to play a game. They aren't driving around in a 97' Jeep with 340,000 miles on it trying to make it on a teacher's salary so as far as I'm concerned - STFU...you got paid millions of dollars to do a job for 8 years and now 15 years after you retired at age 35 you have some health issues? STFU no one cares. Ray Easterling (OL for the Falcons) recently committed suicide. He believed that his depression and other issues were linked to concussions. His salary topped out at $75,000. Adjusted for inflation, it's still more than I'll ever make, but not so much to make me call him a whiny rich boy. Now, I generally agree with what you are saying, but I am pretty sure what the NFL guys are saying is that the NFL knew about the risks and didn't inform anyone, kind of like the tobacco companies and cancer. The answer here is information. Inform parents, honestly and tell them how you will work your @$$ off to protect their kids. Fantom, has it right. We are the missionaries. Let's spread the truth.
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Post by mahonz on Jun 15, 2012 12:16:11 GMT -6
Coaches
Us youth coaches are counting on you to fix this. You all have a much bigger platform because the kids that can play are already roaming your halls. At the youth level, anyone that isn’t currently playing, we cant get at.
A Point / Counterpoint discussion on a HS football forum will do nothing. How many parents read this forum. Maybe 10?
Time to go public. Cant any of you get into your local reporters ear? The NFL has its problems because it’s the NFL. The HS game is way different. Heck, by rule you have to wear a simple mouthpiece. How many NFL players would have avoided yet another concussion if they had just worn a mouthpiece?…or even a hard cup chinstrap?
Bradshaw is a fool…but 2 million parents just heard what he said and are gathered around the water coolers at work as we speak making it even worse.
A youth coach from Chicago just got the attention of the Christen Science Monitor and will be doing a story that counters all of this Chicken Little Syndrome from the youth level perspective. That is a start.
Plus ESPN and SI doing a counterpoint article is only an bandaide. How many moms subscribe? They are the ones making the call more times than not. We need Redbook or Better Homes and Gardens doing a story....like that will ever happen.
How about 60 Minutes? If they get blasted with phone calls and emails from 100's of HS coaches they have to at least put an intern Producer on the story. Right? At least its of some national interest these days.
Strength in numbers. Like fantom suggests….we are all missionaries now.
If any of us think differently….well?
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 15, 2012 12:47:38 GMT -6
I don't understand why some can't differentiate between PRO FOOTBALL and HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL. Because they see violent collisons on TV on Sundays and hear old pros spouting off, some won't let their kids even play in high school. The impact of collisons in the pro game are tenfold higher than high school football. Plus, these pros are playing 1200-1400 (16 games x 80 snaps) snaps a year. These brain injuries etc, are a result of thousands of collisions with guys that are 240 lbs and run a 4.5. High school and pro football are completely different animals, it's just sad some can't understand that. Be ready to explain it then. Explain what?
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Post by mahonz on Jun 15, 2012 13:22:50 GMT -6
as I've said before - no one forced them to play football. They act like had they known ahead of time they would have chosen a different path in life which is complete BS. Back in their day a knee injury was a career ender - and yet they still played knowing full good and well they may limp around the rest of their lives. Some jobs have risk - I don't hear wounded soldiers saying "I didn't know people would be shooting real bullets at me and if they hit me I may lose a leg, and arm, my vision, my life." NO - it is an understood risk, they take it willingly and it costs them what it costs them. Former NFL players need to nut up and just say "It was my decision, I made it, I did it, and it costs me what it costs me it's my own fault." Personally I could careless and I don't want to hear it. These guys were paid millions of dollars to play a game. They aren't driving around in a 97' Jeep with 340,000 miles on it trying to make it on a teacher's salary so as far as I'm concerned - STFU...you got paid millions of dollars to do a job for 8 years and now 15 years after you retired at age 35 you have some health issues? STFU no one cares. Heck, I think half of these guy who are complaining just want the attention again. They want their face back in the media. I saw Jim McMahon on ESPN talking about it one day...HAHA...seriously? Shut up Jim, no one liked you then either. I think the better question is who DON'T you see? You don't see any old timers Jim Brown, Ozzie Smith, etc, you also don't see too many defensive players on the complaint list. Strictly as it relates to the NFL I agree with you. The fact is it's our problem now. John Knight (I think it was) posted an article about a school director who proposed banning HS football. She won't be the last. Let's face it, Mama never wanted Junior to play football. Now she has an excuse. All of the tough talk about choice and how it's healthy for a kid to do risky things? I agree with that. That will NOT win the argument, though. Coach I read that article and I personally believe this attitude will gain a foothold. Where I coach ( youth since 1983 ) one of the largest school districts pulled all funding for all MS sports in the late 80’s. So the youth orgs had to expand to 14u to cover for the kids. Twenty-five years later there are no MS sports of any kind in the public school system Metro wide. They did this for budget reasons. Currently the school district I live in is $40M in the red. The kids have to pay $1 per day just to ride the bus to school and back. Ice Hockey, LAX and Soccer are all 19u leagues run by private orgs. In HS the kids still wear their colors and represent and use the schools facilities but the districts fund nothing. Now they collect rent instead. On the outside it seems normal, behind the scenes it’s a different way of playing HS sports. All kids pay to play and its expensive. With the districts out of the loop the private orgs now foot the bill for coaches salaries, uniforms, equipment etc. One school district just killed Freshman and JV baseball and softball so the youth orgs now expand to 16U for baseball and softball. Gold Crown basketball is now expanding to 19U and is sponsored by the NBA so it’s beginning to happen in basketball as well but I don’t know much about those details. Football cant be that far behind. If enough people like Patty Sexton pipe and play the safety card that is so easy to do right now, then I believe Board Members really aren’t going to act on the safety issue but rather look at it as budget relief. It’s a no brainer for the bean counters if you think about it. So kids will no longer be able to sign up and play for free or even for a nominal fee. The registration fees will be high so all participation will naturally shrink. My kids are grown. I have 6 grandkids with the oldest in 2nd grade. I have to wonder if any of them play HS varsity sports will it be for the district or for a private org. My money says that most if not all HS sports will be privatized by then…around here anyway. Maybe a good thing…maybe a bad thing I don’t know but after reading some of the threads on this forum it might be a good thing. Still I feel for all of the young HS coaches just starting out right now. Things might be very different in the future. Best of luck to all of you. Times are changing fast in many areas that cant make 2+2=4 anymore.
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Post by coachking8 on Jun 15, 2012 14:42:54 GMT -6
I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one. It's not just "old" pros who are hesitant about letting their sons play football. I actually spoke with a very good friend of mine a couple days ago. He is currently playing for the Carolina Panthers and has been in the NFL for quite a few years. We got into this discussion and he told me that right now he doesn't know if he would let his son play football, and he's not alone in his locker room. He said it's a pretty frequent topic of conversation. He's actually under the impression that the NFL's rule changes are going to have drastic effects on the way football is viewed across the country. Eventually, he thinks the actual talent levels in the NFL are going to decrease because more elite athletes are going to choose other sports to save their minds and bodies. And, just to head off any "dumb jock NFL guy" comments, he's probably one of the brightest, most highly educated guys on that team. I thought his opinions were pretty drastic, but according to him it is getting to be a more and more common opinion among guys in the league. I don't know if I necessarily agree with his opinions, but it is one that seems to be gaining steam among current players, not just "old retired players." Just something to chew on...
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Post by fballcoachg on Jun 15, 2012 14:47:17 GMT -6
While there are people out there bashing and jumping on the bandwagon SI ran two studies that didn't show these assumed conclusions, also, Marshall Faulk came out and said what amounted to what a lot of us have said, that NFL is a choice and isn't prep ball and he pretty much called those suing the NFL out on to the carpet.
That said, there very well may be a real need to ease parents fears and the best thing we can do is show them what we do to prevent injuries, how we treat injuries, and find other things such as what Emptybackfield was talking about. It may be unfortunate but to me the time invested in putting together a "defense" is well worth it.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jun 15, 2012 14:50:41 GMT -6
I don't understand why some can't differentiate between PRO FOOTBALL and HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL. Because they see violent collisons on TV on Sundays and hear old pros spouting off, some won't let their kids even play in high school. The impact of collisons in the pro game are tenfold higher than high school football. Plus, these pros are playing 1200-1400 (16 games x 80 snaps) snaps a year. These brain injuries etc, are a result of thousands of collisions with guys that are 240 lbs and run a 4.5. High school and pro football are completely different animals, it's just sad some can't understand that. People can't differentiate because they aren't shown that there is a difference and are making knee jerk reactions off of what they are being told. And some of these are the same people who can't figure out why their kid isn't a D1 prospect...hopefully it is a storm we weather and helps improve the way some of us coach and we get through it for the better.
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Post by mrjvi on Jun 15, 2012 14:59:46 GMT -6
"Now, I generally agree with what you are saying, but I am pretty sure what the NFL guys are saying is that the NFL knew about the risks and didn't inform anyone, kind of like the tobacco companies and cancer." I have problems if this is what the NFL guys are saying. If they truly didn't know about the risks, their mental problems were apparent before any concussions. They ALL know there are risks!!!!! Physical, mental and emotional risks are part of the game. I absolutely agree with the soldiers reference as well. On a different note, When the impact testing came out for our high school our trainer held out 7 kids after the first day of contact. I never got them back for 3 weeks. I have 3 players coming up to varsity that have already had 2 concussions, none from football. These last 2 years I've had no concussions but wrestling has had some and soccer. and hockey. Am I just lucky? I teach chest to chest tackling and have for 15 years. Has anyone else who has the impact test at their school had any concerns with the program? Also I have 14 kids that have spent $350 for helmets which is fine by me but the parents think they won't get concussions now. Just venting I guess.
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dbeck84
Sophomore Member
Posts: 170
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Post by dbeck84 on Jun 15, 2012 15:16:15 GMT -6
I don't understand why some can't differentiate between PRO FOOTBALL and HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL. Because they see violent collisons on TV on Sundays and hear old pros spouting off, some won't let their kids even play in high school. The impact of collisons in the pro game are tenfold higher than high school football. Plus, these pros are playing 1200-1400 (16 games x 80 snaps) snaps a year. These brain injuries etc, are a result of thousands of collisions with guys that are 240 lbs and run a 4.5. High school and pro football are completely different animals, it's just sad some can't understand that. They can't differentiate because they see pro football players saying they won't let their own kids play high school football. It isn't the parents but the players who don't have the ability to differentiate.
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Post by brophy on Jun 15, 2012 15:26:02 GMT -6
The other element to differentiate is that just because someone critiques the sport of football there is no real reason to personally internalize that opinion.
The ad hominem against Bradshaw or Dave Pear or anyone else advocating player health in a game that has risks is short sighted. These critiques should compel us to just examine how we can improve the game (not necessarily eliminate the contact) to focus on the real issue (not just knee jerk our way out of focus)
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Post by fballcoachg on Jun 15, 2012 16:03:35 GMT -6
The other element to differentiate is that just because someone critiques the sport of football there is no real reason to personally internalize that opinion. The ad hominem against Bradshaw or Dave Pear or anyone else advocating player health in a game that has risks is short sighted. These critiques should compel us to just examine how we can improve the game (not necessarily eliminate the contact) to focus on the real issue (not just knee jerk our way out of focus) I agree, good things can come from this and we can and should adapt accordingly to not only keep the sport running but also find a way to improve the safety both in reality and perception. But there needs to be an actual discussion in the football mainstream and this is what frustrates me the most, I realize it is the media and very rarely are there two sides but I would be less likely to get defensive if there were point/counterpoint how do we make it safer conversations as opposed to football is a blood sport/modern day gladiator event that destroys everyone in its path business.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Jun 15, 2012 16:17:59 GMT -6
Terry Bradshaw, bless his heart* is diagnosed bipolar disorder. So, he's nuts and will say or do anything. If you are dealing with a child or loved one with bipolar disorder, you know the terrible difficulty this condition is. I've had to deal with this condition in others, and it is NOT a pretty sight.
* in the South, when we say "bless his heart" it is NOT a term of endearment nor considered a good thing. It means that person is an idiot and can't get out of their own way. It's "southern code."
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Post by blb on Jun 15, 2012 16:43:25 GMT -6
Those of us old enough to remember Bradshaw did not wear a chin strap or mouth guard in mid-70s, if that has anything to do with this.
So his helmet was not exactly sitting tight on his head. And of course back then face masks for QBs weren't all that protective, either.
In all fairness he played most of his career when OL could not use hands in Pass Pro so he got bounced off the turf in Three Rivers Stadium and others more than QBs do now.
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Post by coachking8 on Jun 15, 2012 17:07:32 GMT -6
I think another point to consider is this: most of us "regular Joe" football coaches (for the most part) aren't going to have children that wil play at the highest levels of football. Many will, but most won't. The average person who isn't a football coach probably isn't going to have a child with the talents to play major college or pro football. But, the guys who play in the NFL have a much greater chance of having a child play professionally or at a major college. (I yell at my dad all the time for passing on 5'11 215 lb. genetics to me). Just from a genetic standpoint, those guys have a much greater chance of having children who will possess the abilities to play at a high level. So, from their point of view, it's a risk because no father is going to tell his child, "No, you probably shouldn't enter the draft after you're done at Ohio State." To those guys there's a much larger chance that their sons will be put at risk like so many players before them. I think all of our points of view are very different becaus our perspectives on life and the possibilities of our children making the NFL aren't really something we see as realistic. For those guys, it's something they actually have to really consider because the chances of their children making it are greater.
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Post by fantom on Jun 15, 2012 17:25:16 GMT -6
Those of us old enough to remember Bradshaw did not wear a chin strap or mouth guard in mid-70s, if that has anything to do with this. So his helmet was not exactly sitting tight on his head. And of course back then face masks for QBs weren't all that protective, either. In all fairness he played most of his career when OL could not use hands in Pass Pro so he got bounced off the turf in Three Rivers Stadium and others more than QBs do now. And it's not like his career choices were the NFL or med school.
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Post by holmesbend on Jun 15, 2012 20:51:11 GMT -6
What pisses me off is the only people who are coming forward are the ones who have had problems due to concussions and injuries, and not the ones who are perfectly fine. It's like the fear of flying....people that are scared to fly are that way bc when a plane crash happens, it's plastered across the media...well, what if the media gave an everyday report on the number of flights that landed safely? Same goes for football....the silent majority are the ones that need to start coming forth.
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Post by NC1974 on Jun 15, 2012 21:14:47 GMT -6
What pisses me off is the only people who are coming forward are the ones who have had problems due to concussions and injuries, and not the ones who are perfectly fine. It's like the fear of flying....people that are scared to fly are that way bc when a plane crash happens, it's plastered across the media...well, what if the media gave an everyday report on the number of flights that landed safely? Same goes for football....the silent majority are the ones that need to start coming forth. Well it begs the question, are there a bunch of NFL veterans out there that are "perfectly fine"? Maybe there are, maybe there aren't....but maybe there are alot more unsaid problems among NFL vets that keep them from rushing to football's defense. That being said, I do echo what others have said in regards to comparing NFL vets to high school players. They are two different worlds in terms of intensity and frequency of injuries.
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Post by brophy on Jun 15, 2012 21:23:13 GMT -6
personally, I think another element that is important to recognize when dealing with degenerative brain conditions in athletes is the way you end up wiring yourself when you compete......
The compulsive, thrill-seeking, adrenaline-junky stuff that leads contributes to many of these former athletes depression and self-destructive behaviors when they leave the sport (that may compel someone to mind altering substance abuse)
I'm not suggesting that brain trauma doesn't contribute to neurological damage, that leads to physio/psychological issues, just that there are also other factors that at play (because highly-competitive physical athletes aren't necessary trained to function in everyday Dick and Jane society).
I DO think we ought to embrace people advocating for the safety of the sport. Otherwise, you end up with knee-jerk NFL types that part-and-parcel eliminate large chunks of the game that make it impossible to actually "play" it.
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dbeck84
Sophomore Member
Posts: 170
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Post by dbeck84 on Jun 16, 2012 7:06:30 GMT -6
After having a night to think about the issue and put it in some perspective I'm a little closer to being on the fence. I like to compare the NFL players to the men in my family. One of my grandfathers was a farmer his entire life and lost his right thumb in a cornpicker long ago. Another grandfather worked in a coal mine when he was younger and has severe respiratory problems today. My step-father was a carpenter for many years and now has arthritis in his hands. None of these men ever looked for someone to sue when they started seeing physical effects of their difficult jobs. They were just glad to be able to support their families and put money on the table.
On the other side of the coin, all of these men influenced their children to do something else with their lives that was less dangerous. I see the similarity between this and the NFL players.
I guess where I run into problems is when I have to look at playing football as a business. I played division III football in college for no scholarship money. I've taken volunteer coaching opportunities in the past. For me, its about the love of the game not the money made off of the game. I suppose if football was my sole means of income things would be different. I just wish the NFL millionaires would have more respect fo the game that put them in the position of fame and fortune they are in.
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Post by cc on Jun 16, 2012 8:17:25 GMT -6
Can someone post some findings from studies that show football is not that dangerous? I have some great athletes in our school but they (or their Mama) are worried about getting hurt playing football.... Is this the reality? I remember reading Soccer has more head injuries, cheerleading and skateboarding has more broken bones...etc..etc...
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