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Post by powerfootball71 on Jun 2, 2012 17:24:23 GMT -6
It seems the topic of a lot of threads on here is we are going with a new offence. Could be teams are not scoring enuff or need to score more. Seems to me I don't see many teams saying we need to make teams score less let's go with a new defence. I have my own thoughts on this but am interested in hearing other coaches ideas.
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tarp18
Freshmen Member
Posts: 83
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Post by tarp18 on Jun 2, 2012 19:26:59 GMT -6
I'll take a shot at this one.
I think, on average, defensive coaches understand that fundamentals is what ultimately lead to success more so than offensive coaches. I hope, that defensive coaches are not looking to switch schemes as often because they know that the only way they are going to get better on defense is by getting better at block shedding, tackling, and their keys, not by switching to a 3-4 or whatever. While on offense, its hard not to look at Baylor or Ok. St. scoring 40+ points a game and think "why aren't we doing that?!"
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Post by jgordon1 on Jun 2, 2012 20:01:24 GMT -6
well, another thing is that the offense gets to choose where the ball goes..so if you have a team loaded w/ rb's and big lineman , maybe you choose more of a running style etc
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tarp18
Freshmen Member
Posts: 83
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Post by tarp18 on Jun 2, 2012 20:12:37 GMT -6
well, another thing is that the offense gets to choose where the ball goes..so if you have a team loaded w/ rb's and big lineman , maybe you choose more of a running style etc I think this adds to the argument that your offense needs to be "modular"(term stolen from fantom I believe) in its approach. Your offense should allow enough flexibility that if you have a good line and rb you wouldn't have to make a complete change in order to run the ball more efficiently.
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Post by tog on Jun 2, 2012 20:36:43 GMT -6
brophy I think said it best
play defense
not play a specific defense
or something along those lines
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Post by powerfootball71 on Jun 2, 2012 21:46:22 GMT -6
I'll take a shot at this one. I think, on average, defensive coaches understand that fundamentals is what ultimately lead to success more so than offensive coaches. I hope, that defensive coaches are not looking to switch schemes as often because they know that the only way they are going to get better on defense is by getting better at block shedding, tackling, and their keys, not by switching to a 3-4 or whatever. While on offense, its hard not to look at Baylor or Ok. St. scoring 40+ points a game and think "why aren't we doing that?!" On the same token a offensive coach could say same thing. The only way to get better is through better fundamentals ( blocking routes reads). I feel the need to jump ship on offence is a arms race idea. Ok the Oregon/ baylor/ ok.state teams are scoring 40+ a game we need more ammo ( explosive o) . I just wonder why the idea isent we need to get that 40+ down in the 20's not change systems.
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Post by powerfootball71 on Jun 2, 2012 21:59:22 GMT -6
well, another thing is that the offense gets to choose where the ball goes..so if you have a team loaded w/ rb's and big lineman , maybe you choose more of a running style etc I think this adds to the argument that your offense needs to be "modular"(term stolen from fantom I believe) in its approach. Your offense should allow enough flexibility that if you have a good line and rb you wouldn't have to make a complete change in order to run the ball more efficiently. I think any offence has the potential to be modular ( I don't know the dw and sw systems) Wing t-- rocket, jet,runs at all.gaps,3 step,5 step ,roll,pap,gun, veer,midline Veer- base set for alot off wco stuff, gun possibilities I- many of the same, pistol Spread-- air raid gun run Weather a coach desides to use any of this there are alot of options with out whole.sale change. If anything a more modular approach to defence is what I dont see. You can add fronts.coverages and pressurs with out whole sale change. I'm just of the believe that if.your.going.to sit in one.front and coverage at some point a better team will beat.you.
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tarp18
Freshmen Member
Posts: 83
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Post by tarp18 on Jun 3, 2012 14:27:00 GMT -6
If anything a more modular approach to defence is what I dont see. You can add fronts.coverages and pressurs with out whole sale change. I'm just of the believe that if.your.going.to sit in one.front and coverage at some point a better team will beat.you. I agree with nearly every thing you have said, but in the end how flexible can a defense be? When it comes down to it, defense is just gap responsibility, leverage, and pass responsibilities. Regardless of the kids you have, you are always going to have to achieve those things to be successful. I encourage the use of different fronts and coverages, but I don't consider that being a flexible defense or being "modular", I just consider that playing good defense. Maybe one year your front 4 can't generate pressure? So you blitz more. Maybe your corners can cover anyone in the state, so you run a little bit more cover 1 or something, none of this requires a change in scheme, you are just adjusting to your players and the talents they possess. Im not sure if this is being "modular", or just good common sense coaching.
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Post by powerfootball71 on Jun 3, 2012 17:16:49 GMT -6
When it comes down to it, defense is just gap responsibility, leverage, and pass responsibilities. Regardless of the kids you have, you are always going to have to achieve those things to be successful. I encourage the use of different fronts and coverages, but I don't consider that being a flexible defense or being "modular", I just consider that playing good defense. Maybe one year your front 4 can't generate pressure? So you blitz more. Maybe your corners can cover anyone in the state, so you run a little bit more cover 1 or something, none of this requires a change in scheme, you are just adjusting to your players and the talents they possess. Im not sure if this is being "modular", or just good common sense coaching. That is kind of why i wonder the trend to change offensive systems. if adjusting to your players talents in a defensive system is common sense coaching why is it not the same on offense? So a 4-4 has the issue of needing to rotate a olb to get to 2 hi vs spread teams they didn't change there system. why cant a wing-t add more option to put speed in space? A 33 team is getting killed off tackle so they might add some even fronts. why cant a I team add some formational variations to get guys out of the box? A cover 3 team is getting picked apart buy a no huddle team calling there plays on the los to exploit there coverage so maybe they get into pre snap disguise. why cant a flexbone team add motion variations and shifts to take away keys? could go on and on and I feel a good oc has these options in there offense if its a good system. unless its so extreme on offense as a pure run or chuck it 50 times team. defense is the same way if its thought out unless its a one front one coverage 0 blitz scheme. So I guess as a coach I don't understand the reason to change offense rather then add things to the existing system and the amount of moving parts it would be more easy to add stuff to the d.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 3, 2012 17:26:35 GMT -6
When it comes down to it, defense is just gap responsibility, leverage, and pass responsibilities. Regardless of the kids you have, you are always going to have to achieve those things to be successful. I encourage the use of different fronts and coverages, but I don't consider that being a flexible defense or being "modular", I just consider that playing good defense. Maybe one year your front 4 can't generate pressure? So you blitz more. Maybe your corners can cover anyone in the state, so you run a little bit more cover 1 or something, none of this requires a change in scheme, you are just adjusting to your players and the talents they possess. Im not sure if this is being "modular", or just good common sense coaching. That is kind of why i wonder the trend to change offensive systems. if adjusting to your players talents in a defensive system is common sense coaching why is it not the same on offense? So a 4-4 has the issue of needing to rotate a olb to get to 2 hi vs spread teams they didn't change there system. why cant a wing-t add more option to put speed in space? A 33 team is getting killed off tackle so they might add some even fronts. why cant a I team add some formational variations to get guys out of the box? A cover 3 team is getting picked apart buy a no huddle team calling there plays on the los to exploit there coverage so maybe they get into pre snap disguise. why cant a flexbone team add motion variations and shifts to take away keys? could go on and on and I feel a good oc has these options in there offense if its a good system. unless its so extreme on offense as a pure run or chuck it 50 times team. defense is the same way if its thought out unless its a one front one coverage 0 blitz scheme. So I guess as a coach I don't understand the reason to change offense rather then add things to the existing system and the amount of moving parts it would be more easy to add stuff to the d. Umm.. plenty coaches do . Or should I amend that to plenty SUCCESSFUL coaches do.
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Post by powerfootball71 on Jun 3, 2012 17:30:09 GMT -6
You can't do that with an offense. If you're a wing-t team and you try to run Zone Read - well wing-t blocking isn't going to be great for that. Extreme example, but it follows through. We are changing our offense this year but not our defense. Why? Because I have 3 very good RB's, a dynamic QB, and we aren't big enough upfront to bully people off the football - so what offense can I run where I can have 3-4 kids be multiple threats to carry the ball and not have to drive block every snap - yep - option. !) how is reading the backside de on buck/down/tackle trap out of gun any different? seen plenty of spread teams do it. 2) you cant have a 3 back offense out of wing-t/slot I/spread 2 back/fly/jet? 3) you cant run option out of I ( Notre dame/Nebraska)? or wing-t ( down opt/belly opt/midline/speed/veer)? 4) what offense drive blocks every snap? 5) the only reason I can see in whole sale change on o is a change in philosophy in oline scheme. There are pretty much 4 ways to block 1.zone 2.gap 3.veer 4.man most systems use at least two but i can see changing things if you wanted to major in one that you felt matched the talent level of your line better.
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Jun 3, 2012 18:10:30 GMT -6
People change offenses because it is sexy. People can pick up on offense better than defense and most fans point to the offense as the reason teams lose games.
No one plays madden for the defense, no on creates a player on a video game to play nose guard...
Its alot easier to say we cant win because the coaches run a boring offense than admit you dont have enough hamstrings or toughness to stop anyone from scoring 40 on you.
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Post by lochness on Jun 4, 2012 13:27:10 GMT -6
People change offenses because it is sexy. People can pick up on offense better than defense and most fans point to the offense as the reason teams lose games. No one plays madden for the defense, no on creates a player on a video game to play nose guard... Its alot easier to say we cant win because the coaches run a boring offense than admit you dont have enough hamstrings or toughness to stop anyone from scoring 40 on you. Bingo...it's just that simple.
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Post by wingt74 on Jun 4, 2012 15:47:11 GMT -6
People change offenses because it is sexy. People can pick up on offense better than defense and most fans point to the offense as the reason teams lose games. No one plays madden for the defense, no on creates a player on a video game to play nose guard... Its alot easier to say we cant win because the coaches run a boring offense than admit you dont have enough hamstrings or toughness to stop anyone from scoring 40 on you. Bingo...it's just that simple. I believe the reason is this. No matter what defense you run, you have to be able to defend against all offenses. 4-3, 3-4, 5-2, 6-2, 3-3-5, whatever, you have to stop the deep ball, power up the middle/off-tackle, outside runs, boot pass...all those plays in 4WR sets, 0WR sets, and everything in between. A defense that defends all those things, pretty much looks the same. On offense, you can do whatever the hell you want. If you want to pound the ball all game you can do that, if you want to throw 50 times a game, you can do that. You can't say "we're going to switch to a Dime defense this season instead of a short yardage defense" but you can say "we're going to switch from a Wishbone Team to a Spread. It's more about flexibility than anything. Also, I like to play NT in maddens!
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Post by fantom on Jun 4, 2012 16:13:44 GMT -6
A while back a buddy of mine got hired as a DC at a college. There were strong hints that some big-money boosters wanted them to switch to a 3-4. Problem: my buddy didn't know a thing about the 3-4. So he put in the 4-3 defense that he knew well, called the 5 tech the Jack Linebacker, and they lived happily ever after.
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Post by coach4life on Jun 5, 2012 5:41:04 GMT -6
Defense, how hard could it be? Cover every gap, contain the outside runs, play good coverage. At least that's what I used to think, until I worked with a defensive guy who really knows his stuff.
Contain or spill? If you want to stop Power, spill (unless you're playing man behind it), but be aware you're backers better track to the back hip to prevent the cutback as he strings his pursuit to the sideline. Cover 4 is there to stop the deep ball, right? It's also an excellent way to stop teams that want to run on the edges. Defending the spread? Just line up a guy over those slots and take away the free shot, play in your set zones or cover your guy, how hard could it be, unless you want to take it up a notch and pattern read, play C2 to the twins side and C4 to the pro side of TE Spread....
What I'm trying to say is there is a whole level to defense that is not obvious until you really dig into it. It's not just covering all the gaps and places they might throw, its about setting up your structures to account for what an offense can do out of a particular set and style of play, having guys in place to make a play after accounting for all of that, Oh, and don't forget that a good blocking fullback is a pain in the ars because until he commits he to one shoulder or the other is a 2 gap blocker. Oh and your kids better know their assignments without thinking about it, just read and react.
Don't mean to sound preachy, just saying if any of that sounds like something new, there's a lot more going on over there then I ever knew until I was exposed to those concepts and worked to understand what was going on, it's really helped me on the offensive side of the ball.
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Post by bigm0073 on Jun 5, 2012 9:35:34 GMT -6
In today's day and age you must have a defense that can adapt to offenses. Here is what we face the first 6 games
1. Unbalance double Tight Wing 2. Pro/11 personnel zone 3. Navy Triple Option 4. Classic Wing T 5. Pro Style (Fullback/TE/A Back..) 6. 4/5 wide spread
We have a defense that matches to personnel. You go 10/11 personnel we take guys out and match with speed. Around here there are very, very , very fast teams. If a team comes in 22 personnel and runs power we bring in guys too...
Something our DC did this year was to match up our defense against every offense we see. Keep some core principles but we must be flexible.
Watch Alabama and other teams. They match personnel with personnel. We try and take a similar approach. We have 2 hybrid positions in our defense that give us a lot of flexibility....
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Post by powerfootball71 on Jun 5, 2012 10:31:41 GMT -6
Ok some back ground I'm not a o guy or a d guy I'm a line coach that has been a oc and a dc. Oc wise I'm a lot more conservitive at the core I want to run the ball. Have coached in wing-t,pro I and a option I.played in spread and one back systems in college. All these systems were diverse enuff to have runs to multiple backs to all gaps, a counter game,option, screen game, formation varations,3 step and 5 step game ,multiple launch points and pap. So with that being said I feel most systems have the tools needed to adapt to defenses and personal with out a change in system.
Now on defense I'm a lot more agressive. Multiple fronts covreges and pressure. Now I've worked in 3 systems 3-3, 4-5 and 5-2. One I liked (3-3) the other 2 I don't. I think there fine systems but to only use them as a read and react one front one coverage limited blitz system is like never taking your car out of first gear and at some point in the system you will be out matched talent wise with out a awnser.
So as a coach I've been on staffs and seen staffs scrap a offence that was complete diversified and scored points but keep a vanilla middel to bottom of the pack d and I just don't get it
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Post by hback41 on Jun 7, 2012 10:31:23 GMT -6
I seem to think that coaches want to run new offenses to be cool and trendy. Our offensive staff wants to go back under center. The HC, who is a defensive guy, wants to stay in pistol. UC, We could have our 1 back sit at 5 instead of 7 and everything would hit quicker. The snaps killed us last year and we have a young center. But we must be a pistol team. Why? No one really knows. It is cool and different, though.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jun 7, 2012 19:02:39 GMT -6
clearly the only reason people change, tweak, or start from scratch on offense
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Post by hback41 on Jun 8, 2012 10:14:21 GMT -6
I think at times, it is to be cool, sometimes to be stubborn and other times the change or tweak fits the players or a philosophy. One of the quality programs in our state switched from Spread and zone to a 3 back option system last year. They had a stud FB and wanted to get him the ball. It made sense. I have moved a bunch and have thus worked with 5 different HCs. I have coached or played in a bunch of different systems. Each coach had things that they did, just because. Sometimes, the just because things did not fit or work. At other times, they would not adjust, just because.
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Post by carookie on Jun 8, 2012 21:47:33 GMT -6
I think Fantom nailed it (one mans 5 tech is another man's Jack LB) A defense can change a lot of what it actually does-coverage, technique, philosophy, etc- without changing what kind of defense (name wise) it is. Heck I have some good friends, we all run odd stack, and we all run it very differently.
That being written, I don't think teams scrap the O that much more frequently than the D
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 8, 2012 23:10:29 GMT -6
First, I think it's much harder to scrap a D, you ant change one thing without changing everything. Going from C2 to C3 changes absolutely every last detail of your defense. So when a defense changes, it changes the techniques. This results in a totally different scheme, even if the alignment is the same.
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Post by coacha65 on Jun 9, 2012 6:33:30 GMT -6
I think offenses change for two reasons: 1. As stated before you see Baylor or Oregon and the OCs fall in love. 2. The defenses generally catch up to the "new" offenses. When the zone read rose to prominence in our area it was the next "it cant be stopped offense". When everyone figured out it was just veer option and played gap exchange the offenses moved to more of trap/wrap scheme. Defenses are blitzing the crap out of the open sets so the OCs put a TE in there, when that doesnt work they added another back and started to run power o. I forgot one last reason: The Offensive guys love to have big playbooks and run every play in it and they get bored easily so they have to keep changing...just kidding guys, no offense!
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