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Post by outlaw17 on May 22, 2012 8:44:27 GMT -6
What is an "normal" number of players per team for grade 4-5? Our president will not set a limit and we sometimes have teams with 36 players. I am trying to convince him that this size of roster is a disaster. Please let me know if your association has limits, and also what number of players the coaches prefer to have.
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Post by coachrobpsl on May 22, 2012 11:00:48 GMT -6
36 is WAY too many. PW has a limit of 35 I believe. I think the best amount is around 25.The biggest problem with that many kids is playing time for each player. Do you have minimum play requirements? The kids will receive less individual attention from the coaches. Due to the restraints involved with that many kids, the players may not progress as quickly as kids on a smaller team. That is not always the case, of course, but when you consider the likely ratio of players to coaches being larger it tends to ring true.
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Post by coachtut on May 22, 2012 11:12:45 GMT -6
We set ours at 25. You still must run a tight ship with 25 at the mighty mite level with minimum plays and running clock in our area. One year we had 28, it was a nightmare.
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Post by bobgoodman on May 22, 2012 11:25:58 GMT -6
I wouldn't say there's such a thing as a "normal number", but I think the vast majority of teams would find 36 uncomfortable. Considering the length of games typically played at that age, it would spread playing time very thin.
In the club I've been with the past 2 seasons, 24 would be the theoretic maximum the rules would allow, and in some ways 22-24 would be ideal. However, in the great majority of situations as the club has been used to doing things lately, if they had enough for that many players per team they would actually form another team and have fewer players.
The team I coached most with in the club where I was in 2007 had 23 enrolled, but many were no-shows in games. Other teams in that club might've had a few more players, some had fewer.
I'd like to know how your organiz'n is set up, and what you'd have to do to decrease the number of players per team. When you refer to "our president", is he president of a league (or club that plays house ball), or of a club of teams that play outside the club? Depending on your organiz'n's situation, he may feel hemmed in and having to either accept large rosters or have large numbers of players turned away.
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Post by coachbrek on May 22, 2012 11:55:54 GMT -6
MAX 22 MIN 15
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Post by davecisar on May 25, 2012 13:06:58 GMT -6
Coach.
36- divide into two teams of 18 each- VERY doable
23 is the perfect number at that age IMO
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Post by wybulldogs on May 25, 2012 15:36:26 GMT -6
At the 9th grade level I like to have around 25-30. That gives me a full scout team and kids to sub in and out on both sides during practice. Plus you know you're always going to have a few kids dinged up, or out with grades, so that still leaves me with wiggle room in terms of numbers.
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Post by bobgoodman on May 25, 2012 21:34:35 GMT -6
36- divide into two teams of 18 each- VERY doable Very doable if you've got the field time, officials, and coaches for the extra games. That's why I asked about their organiz'n's circumstances. Large rosters may be a product of limited resources and a desire to give a larger number of kids some experience, even if it's reduced in amount, than to give a smaller number more play. |
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Post by Chris Clement on May 25, 2012 22:12:21 GMT -6
I think 18-25 is probably your money zone, depending on what your attendance rates are, how quickly your games flow, MPP rules, etc.
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Post by coachbuck on May 26, 2012 7:50:17 GMT -6
Ours is 28 with a minimum play rule of 12 plays. 28 is way to many. Instead of playing football you have to have a really good strategy to sub players. It gets frustrating. If I could pick a number it would be 18-20 that would be perfect.
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Post by coachrobpsl on May 26, 2012 8:16:45 GMT -6
Pop Warner has a limit of 35. Apparently PW is going to try to have teams max out their rosters or form multiple teams. In years past this was either not a rule or not enforced. I agree with kids not being turned away if you can accommodate them. But is putting 35 kids on a youth team really accommodating? With strictly enforced practices schedules and strictly enforced mpp rules I think having too many kids on a team takes away from the quality of the experience for everybody involved. With that may kids on a roster everybody must play 6 plays not to include any speci al teams plays. Game coaching will be more about strategy on how to get everybody in than about actual x's and o's.
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Post by CoachDaveP on May 28, 2012 20:51:21 GMT -6
Our org. sets the limit at 40 for all 4 levels (flag,fresh,JV,vars) Our fresman and JV teams are always at that limit. It is tough to get some players more than the minimum which is 4 plays a half. Would love to see that drop to 30.
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Post by bobgoodman on May 29, 2012 17:51:05 GMT -6
It's been a week and no further posts from the original poster, although I asked him a question in this thread. Outlaw17, did you really want honest discussion, or were you just looking for ammunition to deliver to the president?
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Post by outlaw17 on Jun 11, 2012 11:01:09 GMT -6
Thank you for all of the input, I was looking for information from other areas of the country / leagues / associations as a guideline for what has worked best, and you have all delivered!. I have been a head coach for 6 years and have always want "smaller" rosters. The roster size is not about "winning" or having all studs, I feel that with a smaller roster a coaching staff can truly do a better job, and therefore provide a better experience for the kids. I feel that at this age every player should be taught a defence position and an offence position, but with massive rosters this would be a hard goal the achieve. I have shared this with our president and we will have smaller roster this season, with 26 per team on our 5th/6th grade teams.
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Post by lwcoach on Jun 13, 2012 16:49:18 GMT -6
I am going to add my 2 cents. Current roster is at 47 going to be closer to 50 by the time of the first game. I coach 9-10 y.o. Minimum play is 5 per game, no special team plays count towards this total. Maximum number of coaches is 6. Season is 2 months away and I worry about this issue every day. The board thinks it is more important to give every kid a chance that wants to play, than it is to teach the kids that really want to be there. It is more than just a struggle not only to get the plays in, but keep the kids attention and be competitive. Any advice on play counts, where to "play" MPP's. Mr. Cisar, we talked briefly about this a couple of years ago at a clinic in Chicago and things have only gotten worse since. This years team is actually small in kid physical size too. Only 2 mandatory linemen in the whole group. Team full of Wideouts if you know what I mean.
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Post by coachdoug on Jun 13, 2012 17:11:02 GMT -6
I am going to add my 2 cents. Current roster is at 47 going to be closer to 50 by the time of the first game. I coach 9-10 y.o. Minimum play is 5 per game, no special team plays count towards this total. Maximum number of coaches is 6. Season is 2 months away and I worry about this issue every day. The board thinks it is more important to give every kid a chance that wants to play, than it is to teach the kids that really want to be there. It is more than just a struggle not only to get the plays in, but keep the kids attention and be competitive. Any advice on play counts, where to "play" MPP's. Mr. Cisar, we talked briefly about this a couple of years ago at a clinic in Chicago and things have only gotten worse since. This years team is actually small in kid physical size too. Only 2 mandatory linemen in the whole group. Team full of Wideouts if you know what I mean. There is no reason those goals have to be mutually exclusive. If the board really wants to accommodate every kid that wants to play, they should also be able to recruit another coaching staff and create a second team for that age group. Practice field space shouldn't be an issue since you'll be dealing with the same number of kids anyway. Two teams of 25 makes a whole lot more sense than 1 unmanageable team of 50 - on many, many levels. Frankly, this is such an obvious solution that it is more than a little alarming that the board didn't already figure this out on their own. That is a warning sign that they don't know what they're doing - if they don't immediately see the value in starting a second team, I would seriously consider moving on to another program and/or league. I can't think of any reasonable excuse to not do this. |
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Post by lwcoach on Jun 13, 2012 17:58:42 GMT -6
coach doug,
There is always one little bit of info that is left out, only one team per age group allowed in our league. Sorry about that bit of information being left out. There is another organization in our town that used to have 2 teams in their league, but the league went to one team per city after teams were "loading" one team.
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Post by coachseth on Jun 13, 2012 18:27:03 GMT -6
We got stuck with 18 last year and it was horrible.
I prefer having enough to run a live offense and live defense during practice...so about 22 would be perfect.
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Post by shotgun1 on Jun 13, 2012 18:56:48 GMT -6
4th-5th grade would be between 22-23. This would allow you to platoon your squad. Our league has 2 teams per grade so we cap out number at 46. Once we hit 46 we are full.
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Post by bobgoodman on Jun 13, 2012 21:50:14 GMT -6
There is always one little bit of info that is left out, only one team per age group allowed in our league. Sorry about that bit of information being left out. There is another organization in our town that used to have 2 teams in their league, but the league went to one team per city after teams were "loading" one team. 1 team/city -- does that mean territorial exclusivity? If there's a team based "here", the next one has to be based at least "this far away"? Hmmm...any possibility of phantom basing, i.e. saying your team is "here" regardless of where they practice or their home field is? How is their base of operations determined? |
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Post by coachdoug on Jun 13, 2012 22:36:20 GMT -6
coach doug, There is always one little bit of info that is left out, only one team per age group allowed in our league. Sorry about that bit of information being left out. There is another organization in our town that used to have 2 teams in their league, but the league went to one team per city after teams were "loading" one team. Yeah, I see more red flags going up - fixing the "loading" one team problem is relatively easy to do. A one team per program rule is just a lazy way of dealing with it. Having that along with a minimum play rule and no limits on roster size just makes no sense - I really get the sense that the administrators of your league are in over their heads. I really don't see how you can realistically manage more than 35 with your MPR rule, and about 25 would really be ideal. I don't know if you really have any options where you live, but if it were me, I would basically tell them they're going to limit the team to some number (no more than 35) or I wouldn't coach the team. If they called my bluff, I would walk. Having 50 kids on a team with a 5 play MPR is just ridiculous and recipe for disaster - you're setting the kids up to fail. In the long run, you'll probably end up losing more kids than if you put in a reasonable restriction on roster size up front. Good luck. Let us know what happens. |
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Post by lwcoach on Jun 14, 2012 7:53:33 GMT -6
bobgoodman,
Our town kind of meshes with 2 other towns, so the kids can play either in our league or go to the other organization that plays in a much more competitive league. Travel to away games in that other league can be up to 2 hours one way. Our league is competitive, but we do not deny anyone, like the other league does.
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Post by jrwarriorcoach on Jul 3, 2012 11:22:38 GMT -6
I'm not part of a Pop Warner organization but where I coach we limit teams to 22 at 3rd 4th grade age. Preferably around 17/18. We are focused on getting the boys playing time. Winning is a byproduct of fostering good habits from the average player and placing the boys in their optimal positions.
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Post by CatsCoach on Jul 9, 2012 12:26:15 GMT -6
Not part of Pop Warner either, we get lucky at most of our weight classes we get at least 3 teams sometimes 4 so each team will have about 16-18 kids on each team
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Post by shotgun1 on Jul 28, 2012 18:47:58 GMT -6
If you are not part of Pop Warner why even do weight classes? Group the kids according to their grade and do not ever make them step on scale.
22-23 max per year per team.
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Post by macdiiddy on Jul 28, 2012 20:01:55 GMT -6
Why not go 2 platoon? everyone has 1 position and you have back ups
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