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Post by coachvann on May 21, 2012 5:37:53 GMT -6
There's a school in town that the coach screens who has coming out to football...he checks behavior and grades and makes his initial cut. Of course he has the numbers to do that. I am at a much smaller school where all of our players are never off of the field and we take a big cut as far as talent when we drop to 2nd team...tons of 1/2 line!!
I've always made the excuse that we can't do those kind of cuts because of numbers! Well, those cuts happened-we had the biggest group coming out for spring (28 kids) and somethings happened where bit by bit kids quit-they cut themselves out of the program. We went all the way down to 18 kids for the spring game. We lost 5 starters within those cuts-For us that is 10 positions!
I found that we were able to do allot more with the 18 kids with character than with the 28 kids with more athletic ability!! This is probably the biggest lesson learned as a head coach!!
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Post by JVD on May 21, 2012 6:36:31 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing coach.
As a line coach I have always said, "Give me a bunch of smart, slow, undersized kids who want to be there over the big, fast, dumb ones who are there because their daddy wants them to be"
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Post by coachwilliams2 on May 21, 2012 6:44:47 GMT -6
Coach,
There is always the battle between good kid and good player. You need good players to win. PERIOD. You also need high character kids to win long-term.
We try to get rid of the distractions (kids who are cancer to a program, the kid who does wrong and does so willingly). We will keep a kid who hangs with a bad crowd, or gets caught up with bad situations. We feel like if we reward and nurture the character kids, those boarderline kids will fall in line. Get rid of the TURDS, and try to save the "followers" who have a bad rep.
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Post by coachfd on May 21, 2012 6:55:35 GMT -6
I had a similar situation one year... it was a rewarding experience to work with such a high-character and high-IQ group. "Would you rather have a 100 militia, or 10 navy seals?"
I'll take the SEALs.
That being said, you can't win without talent. As fun as that team was to coach, we won 1 game.
The following year I coached at another program, and we had a team LOADED with talent.
The head coach did a great job of keeping the trouble-makers away, and making sure that everyone knew what WOULDN'T be tolerated. This was a tough, inner-city school, but the discipline was firm, it was a tight-ship, and the talent on the team was allowed to bloom.
A lot of times, it's all those character-issues that hold a team back from playing at their best. When you remove those barriers, your team's talent is able to show through fully.
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Post by CS on May 21, 2012 7:06:49 GMT -6
The exact thing happened here and I would not be surprised to find out you were one of my asst. coaches. Same numbers at first and same at finish. The kids who don't want it will weed themselves out if you make the practices high tempo and don't let anybody slack. Then you can get things done!
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Post by coachfd on May 21, 2012 8:04:27 GMT -6
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Post by blb on May 21, 2012 8:15:37 GMT -6
The purpose of HS Football is educational. Kids should learn more than how to block and tackle, pass and punt.
They should learn how to make and carry out a commitment, self-discipline, accountability, how to compete, how to be part of an organization and a good teammate, and to do something full-speed to the best of their ability within rules.
You must be willing to lose in order to have discipline. You can win with talented kids but you can lose with them too.
You will most certainly lose without discipline. Disciplined teams win because they don't beat themselves.
And if you have good kids but lose anyway, makes it (a little) easier to take.
As Woody Hayes (and dcohio) said, "You Win With People!" It's up to us as coaches to give them direction. If some kids refuse to "GWTP," it may necessitate a parting of the ways for the good of the Team or program, regardless of their physical abilities.
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Post by jgordon1 on May 21, 2012 8:16:36 GMT -6
..The kids that are convincing your kids to quit are LEADERS...just in the wrong direction....Like DC says..you have to push them one way or the other..if these leaders are your best athletes, you need to somehow convice them it is in their best interest to work towards the same goal as you...unlike college football, you just can't recruit more..the best coaches (not me) somehow manage that balance
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Post by fantom on May 21, 2012 8:59:29 GMT -6
There's a school in town that the coach screens who has coming out to football...he checks behavior and grades and makes his initial cut. Of course he has the numbers to do that. I am at a much smaller school where all of our players are never off of the field and we take a big cut as far as talent when we drop to 2nd team...tons of 1/2 line!! I've always made the excuse that we can't do those kind of cuts because of numbers! Well, those cuts happened-we had the biggest group coming out for spring (28 kids) and somethings happened where bit by bit kids quit-they cut themselves out of the program. We went all the way down to 18 kids for the spring game. We lost 5 starters within those cuts-For us that is 10 positions! I found that we were able to do allot more with the 18 kids with character than with the 28 kids with more athletic ability!! This is probably the biggest lesson learned as a head coach!! I'm interested in what the specific criteria for the cuts are. |
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Post by outlawjoseywales on May 21, 2012 8:59:43 GMT -6
I recently posted a question about needing "leadership" materials. This is something that is certainly needed by the kids I'm finding right now. The lack of character in a down trodden program, with limited numbers, is very evident right now.
I'm attempting to take a group of underclassmen and build from there.
Although I've never used nor HAD to use leadership materials before, I think this is the direction I have to go. I'm currently focusing on the kids who are positive, want to play, and desire to do things right, hoping that their attitudes will be contageous.
The problem lies in timing though. Will my younger players survive the "bad mouths of the quitters" long enough for our character development to work? I'm not sure. But there is no other path.
Coach Vann is a great young men, charged with a difficult task. If anyone can make it work-he will.
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Post by coachvann on May 21, 2012 10:27:22 GMT -6
Thanks outlaw...didn't know you were coaching again. What i have learned here is that I have been trying to build on athletic ability instead of character. If I would have been building on character since day 1 then the young kids who are now my Juniors for next season wouldn't have chosen what they chose this spring.
I'd say get the quitters out of the program, no matter how good they are. That is hard to say and do as a coach...but I'm telling you from personal experience...Saturday was allot of fun working with the kids who kept on fighting, who played each down and not once quit on their brothers on the field
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Post by coachvann on May 21, 2012 10:29:04 GMT -6
There's a school in town that the coach screens who has coming out to football...he checks behavior and grades and makes his initial cut. Of course he has the numbers to do that. I am at a much smaller school where all of our players are never off of the field and we take a big cut as far as talent when we drop to 2nd team...tons of 1/2 line!! I've always made the excuse that we can't do those kind of cuts because of numbers! Well, those cuts happened-we had the biggest group coming out for spring (28 kids) and somethings happened where bit by bit kids quit-they cut themselves out of the program. We went all the way down to 18 kids for the spring game. We lost 5 starters within those cuts-For us that is 10 positions! I found that we were able to do allot more with the 18 kids with character than with the 28 kids with more athletic ability!! This is probably the biggest lesson learned as a head coach!! I'm interested in what the specific criteria for the cuts are. I have heard that the cuts were decided on grades, behavior reports from the teachers and attendance. They are a power house around here and he does an amazing job with the kids he works with. |
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Post by newt21 on May 21, 2012 11:12:59 GMT -6
We must make cuts in our program. We only have so much equipment to go around so we have no choice. Part of the criteria we have for our cuts is the players who make the team must be respectful, hard workers (as best as we can tell at least), and we try to get coachable players. From the group that falls under these guidelines, we take the best of the best. I will often times take on one or two kids as projects that I think it will help them out greatly.
We have very strict rules for the kids to abide by, and they must sign a contract along with their parents, otherwise they will not be playing for us. I have had much more success when we implemented this strategy than when we just took the best athletes we had because if the kid isn't coachable, he won't improve and won't run your system.
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Post by coachvann on May 21, 2012 11:21:47 GMT -6
DCOhio-thanks for sharing that. That's a pretty amazing thing you did for that kid and probably impacted the people around that kid as well!! I will definitely be keeping that in mind as we are all in the business of changing lives.
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Post by fantom on May 21, 2012 11:28:31 GMT -6
I'm still trying to figure this out. You had over a third of your team quit during spring ball. Why? Had these kids been working out? What reasons did they give for leaving?
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Post by John Knight on May 21, 2012 12:10:35 GMT -6
I really think this was a scene from the Blind Side, DC!! LOL!
I do think it is a heck of a lot more believeable in your version than Momma Tuhey.
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Post by coachvann on May 21, 2012 12:46:54 GMT -6
I'm still trying to figure this out. You had over a third of your team quit during spring ball. Why? Had these kids been working out? What reasons did they give for leaving? Some of the guys who quit was playing baseball and the baseball team had a great run this season...lost in the regional championship game. Two of the players on that team said they just want to focus on baseball and thought football would hurt them-one started for us last season at LB/TE Five guys kept on missing practice due to grades, excuses about homework the first two weeks-so I told them they needed to make a commitment-they turned in their stuff. Their attendance in the weight room was spotty and I was not really counting on them-but two of them were big kids who ran well-they both started for us last season as well. The week of the spring game (last Monday) three of my other starters turned them in the same day...this group surprised me. they all three loved football, loved working out, but they hate the school (I'm at a small Christian school) and the fact that I support the rules that come with this school. Their excuse was, "It's not looking good with the other guys quitting". Funny thing is that we just released our theme when we started spring football and it was, "EARN IT". Looks like the last three felt they were entitled to win football games!-just my opinion. |
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Post by coachvann on May 21, 2012 12:57:16 GMT -6
I am at a much smaller school where all of our players are never off of the field and we take a big cut as far as talent when we drop to 2nd team...tons of 1/2 line!! We lost 5 starters within those cuts-For us that is 10 positions! I found that we were able to do allot more with the 18 kids with character than with the 28 kids with more athletic ability!! Sooo....a question: You lost 5 starters, 10 positions and yet you were able to do more with less...and by less I mean less kids as well as lesser athletes...so in the future if you lose 5 starters, will you still be losing 10 positions? Amazingly so, we were able to play much better...part of it was because the kids we had out there bought into the program and the system. When things got bad (it was 14-0 at the beginning of the second)-I still had 11 players playing with everything they had. If I had some of my former players it would have been 8 playing and then soon 6 playing...so we did allot more. If we lost 5 more kids-I don't know if we would have a football team. |
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Post by coachvann on May 21, 2012 13:00:04 GMT -6
oh ya...we finished the game 21-0...they scored a 99 yard touchdown late in the fourth quarter. Not happy with the outcome-but saw our players come together over a couple of tough situations.
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Post by 10forhim56 on May 21, 2012 13:12:10 GMT -6
I firmly beleive that if you do everything right in a program, the wins and losses take care of themselves. It is a fine line with getting rid of players though. We try to "save" kids the best that we can. Many of our kids need the program more than the program needs them. They are held to certain expectations and held responsibile for their actions. First year we were here, we suspended someone on game day every single week. We went 2-8. Last year, 3 years later, we didn't suspend one. We went 7-3.
Young men that continue to be problems and refuse to buy in, typically end up cutting themselves, but we try everything that we can to extend grace as much as possible while still maintaining our standards.
As Joe Erhmann would say, "I won't know if this team will be successful for another 25 years." Success is not measured in wins and losses, although they are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, it is measured by the kinds of young men that are produced.
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Post by jml on May 21, 2012 16:59:48 GMT -6
I am at a much smaller school where all of our players are never off of the field and we take a big cut as far as talent when we drop to 2nd team...tons of 1/2 line!! We lost 5 starters within those cuts-For us that is 10 positions! I found that we were able to do allot more with the 18 kids with character than with the 28 kids with more athletic ability!! Sooo....a question: You lost 5 starters, 10 positions and yet you were able to do more with less...and by less I mean less kids as well as lesser athletes...so in the future if you lose 5 starters, will you still be losing 10 positions? On the whole character issue - I am huge on that and I sometimes get out of line when dealing with it. My mindset is simply that of Gunny Highway "No one goes over the wall on me." Now you may end up ineligible, you may get into some trouble, you may this or that but those things are not going to come easy. I have went to several houses over grades and weight room attendance. If I've taken that step, then rest assured when I show up at your door: #1 - I am not going to be happy, #2 - you also are not going to be happy, #3 - you know I care. and don't get it messed up, I've been in a crack house over a kid before and I'll be in one again, don't tell me I won't come to your house. Sheee-it - 2 weeks ago I went looking for my sophomore RB because baseball was over and he hadn't been at weights yet. So I go to his mom's house. Mom is an addict, lives in the drug house, I get there and there are 8 people sitting on the porch drinkin at 2:30 in the afternoon, you all know the scene. I walk up on the porch, tell them who I am, met everyone...that's a process incase you don't know and that I was looking for *******. Of couse they hadn't seen him, but could find him. So they texted him to come over. In the meanwhile, I stood there just BS'in with everyone, talking, etc. you know. Kid comes walking up the street, evidently didn't see me or my car, comes up on the porch, finally sees me and was floored to see me there. He asked me what I was doing there and before I could answer everyone on the porch started ripping his butt. "he's here cause your little dumb*** ain't been at weights" "and what's up with your ****ing grades?" "WTF are you doing ******, this man came here to find YOU...do you know how crazy a MFer has to be to come up on this porch lookin like he looks and not be the police?" I looked at him and said "so...weights tomorrow? You'll be there?" His aunt says "you damm right he'll be there, we're sorry coach." The next day at school, I explained to him that his family is there for him to fall back on. But those cats are where they are because of the decisions they have made, they didn't want to end up where they are and they are making it the best they can. They want a better life for him. While they may not say it, they would be damm proud if he got out. No matter what degree he got, they would be proud of him. Word on that traveled pretty fast - apparently it was a big twitter deal for a while there. But our weight room numbers increased immediately and our grades came up. I asked one of the kids about it and he said "man...if you're crazy enough to go to *****'s house, I know you ain't got no problem coming to mine." If they are on the fence they are useless to you. You've got to make them or break them. At least that's my opinion. Your the f---ing man... We had nuns that use to do that... no one does that any more... I love it..... Keep up the great work!! |
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Post by fantom on May 21, 2012 17:04:09 GMT -6
I'm still trying to figure this out. You had over a third of your team quit during spring ball. Why? Had these kids been working out? What reasons did they give for leaving? Some of the guys who quit was playing baseball and the baseball team had a great run this season...lost in the regional championship game. Two of the players on that team said they just want to focus on baseball and thought football would hurt them-one started for us last season at LB/TE Five guys kept on missing practice due to grades, excuses about homework the first two weeks-so I told them they needed to make a commitment-they turned in their stuff. Their attendance in the weight room was spotty and I was not really counting on them-but two of them were big kids who ran well-they both started for us last season as well. The week of the spring game (last Monday) three of my other starters turned them in the same day...this group surprised me. they all three loved football, loved working out, but they hate the school (I'm at a small Christian school) and the fact that I support the rules that come with this school. Their excuse was, "It's not looking good with the other guys quitting". Funny thing is that we just released our theme when we started spring football and it was, "EARN IT". Looks like the last three felt they were entitled to win football games!-just my opinion. Other than the baseball players doesn't sound like much of a loss. |
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Post by outlawjoseywales on May 21, 2012 20:39:08 GMT -6
Good going Coach Vann. Glad to hear y'all had a good Spring, even with the difficulties.
There are so many small central Florida schools that went out of business or no longer play football. It's a tough time right now in Florida for private schools. So many kids who want to come to a good private school like your's-can't, and kids who CAN come-don't want the discipline it requires. It's a strange world for sure.
Keep up the good work, you are a real character guy, these kids will grow up and make you proud.
OJW
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Post by Chris Clement on May 21, 2012 21:56:12 GMT -6
We just canned our theoretically much better QB because he was being a dick in the huddle, and his replacement, who offers no tangible advantage, has been much better just by being positive and not a dink.
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Post by silkyice on May 22, 2012 6:11:56 GMT -6
I am at a much smaller school where all of our players are never off of the field and we take a big cut as far as talent when we drop to 2nd team...tons of 1/2 line!! We lost 5 starters within those cuts-For us that is 10 positions! I found that we were able to do allot more with the 18 kids with character than with the 28 kids with more athletic ability!! Sooo....a question: You lost 5 starters, 10 positions and yet you were able to do more with less...and by less I mean less kids as well as lesser athletes...so in the future if you lose 5 starters, will you still be losing 10 positions? On the whole character issue - I am huge on that and I sometimes get out of line when dealing with it. My mindset is simply that of Gunny Highway "No one goes over the wall on me." Now you may end up ineligible, you may get into some trouble, you may this or that but those things are not going to come easy. I have went to several houses over grades and weight room attendance. If I've taken that step, then rest assured when I show up at your door: #1 - I am not going to be happy, #2 - you also are not going to be happy, #3 - you know I care. and don't get it messed up, I've been in a crack house over a kid before and I'll be in one again, don't tell me I won't come to your house. Sheee-it - 2 weeks ago I went looking for my sophomore RB because baseball was over and he hadn't been at weights yet. So I go to his mom's house. Mom is an addict, lives in the drug house, I get there and there are 8 people sitting on the porch drinkin at 2:30 in the afternoon, you all know the scene. I walk up on the porch, tell them who I am, met everyone...that's a process incase you don't know and that I was looking for *******. Of couse they hadn't seen him, but could find him. So they texted him to come over. In the meanwhile, I stood there just BS'in with everyone, talking, etc. you know. Kid comes walking up the street, evidently didn't see me or my car, comes up on the porch, finally sees me and was floored to see me there. He asked me what I was doing there and before I could answer everyone on the porch started ripping his butt. "he's here cause your little dumb*** ain't been at weights" "and what's up with your ****ing grades?" "WTF are you doing ******, this man came here to find YOU...do you know how crazy a MFer has to be to come up on this porch lookin like he looks and not be the police?" I looked at him and said "so...weights tomorrow? You'll be there?" His aunt says "you damm right he'll be there, we're sorry coach." The next day at school, I explained to him that his family is there for him to fall back on. But those cats are where they are because of the decisions they have made, they didn't want to end up where they are and they are making it the best they can. They want a better life for him. While they may not say it, they would be damm proud if he got out. No matter what degree he got, they would be proud of him. Word on that traveled pretty fast - apparently it was a big twitter deal for a while there. But our weight room numbers increased immediately and our grades came up. I asked one of the kids about it and he said "man...if you're crazy enough to go to *****'s house, I know you ain't got no problem coming to mine." If they are on the fence they are useless to you. You've got to make them or break them. At least that's my opinion. Best and most important post on Coach Huey's board ever. |
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Post by ballskills on May 23, 2012 3:40:15 GMT -6
There's a school in town that the coach screens who has coming out to football...he checks behavior and grades and makes his initial cut. I feel like that coach is doing a disservice to the kids who need football most. As a football coach its your job to increase the character of all your kids, not just coach the guys who already have it. |
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Post by John Knight on May 23, 2012 6:49:46 GMT -6
Pretty sure I would have been choking a track coach!
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Post by outlawjoseywales on May 23, 2012 7:00:43 GMT -6
I've seen EXACTLY the same scenario that dcohio is talking about.
I have several ineligable, I'm working hard on it. The parents of these kids thank me for "making" their sons get their graders up. WHAT? When did this happen? When did I become the parent and the parents become the neighbor.
Same thing, best athlete, a soph. same age, just decided he was tired of working, overnight. Glad we caught him, NOW I've got to play "amateur psychologist" and find out what the deal really is.
I have "the usual suspects" as we all know.
While I'm on the "hate this memo."
I hate parents using me and my program as punishment. I mean, this hasn't just started. I'm talking about the infamous "if you don't ________, then you're not playing football" line.
Hey, parents, get a clue, some kids would LOVE to go home and just play video games till you come home. Stop using me for punishment.
End of rant.
OJW
GET YOUR OWN.
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Post by fantom on May 23, 2012 9:01:24 GMT -6
[quote author=outlawjoseywales board=general thread=53178 post=520112 time=1337778043
While I'm on the "hate this memo."
I hate parents using me and my program as punishment. I mean, this hasn't just started. I'm talking about the infamous "if you don't ________, then you're not playing football" line.
Hey, parents, get a clue, some kids would LOVE to go home and just play video games till you come home. Stop using me for punishment.
End of rant.
OJW
GET YOUR OWN.[/quote]
Tell me about it. At my new school we have a rising junior who can be a stud. He doesn't come to the weight room enough, though, because his mother says that his grades aren't good enough. Does she think that we're eating pizza and watching movies in the weight room? The stuff we're doing now isn't that much fun. Not being allowed in the weight room isn't a huge punishment.
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Post by coachcb on May 23, 2012 9:47:29 GMT -6
Lol..
One of our seniors had a four day, family vacation planned last week. He was going to miss two days of school that would put him over 10 days in both of his dual credit classes (4 college credits if you get a B). He chose to go on the vacation anyway and missed the opportunity to save about 750.00 on college credits. Mom and dad said "the plane tickets cost more than college" so he should go.
He was also that the rest of the coaches in the conferences brought up for all-conference honors. I shot them down because he's a lazy a--.
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