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Post by mrjvi on May 4, 2012 5:25:44 GMT -6
I will still keep teaching tackling technique mostly using chest to chest contact. The head will have incidental contact, it's unavoidable. I agree with Tog and others, if the game changes too much, I'm done. It will be sad, though. There really isn't anything like football. Over my 30 years of coaching, I have found the football players have more guts and intestinal fortitude than the average population. You have to put yourself out on the line and you can't hide. That takes guts. You can hide in most sports. You can't hide in football. This is much needed these days.
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 5:50:02 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 5:56:00 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on May 4, 2012 6:07:36 GMT -6
First-- I want to Applaud Huey for allowing this thread to remain. This topic has been brought up several times over the last 3 or 4 years, and each time it was quickly deleted. I absolutely understand the reason why (fear it will degenerate into posts talking about the wussification of America).
2nd, it is of critical importance in this discussion to recognize that there is a distinction between "concussions" and head trauma. It is NOT just the highlight film, "stick of the week" shots that are troublesome. In fact, the research is showing the REAL worry is probably just the everyday, run of the mill banging that occurs in practice and games. (Looks like John beat me to it above here showing the facts)
Lastly--I just don't understand the aversion for identifying danger/risk and trying to mitigate it. That just baffles me.
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 6:29:11 GMT -6
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Post by Coach Bennett on May 4, 2012 6:30:44 GMT -6
One poster talk about removing helmet and shoulder pads as they do in rugby. That's a huge mistake! Nowadays every rugby players wear shoulder pads (not the same as football ones obviously but still) and a lot wear a helmet too. Rugby is becoming really big in France right now. The game is changing really fast because rugby players are now real athletes. They are better, faster, stronger... And so the numbers of injuries grows. When I think helmet, I think plastic. Rugby players do wear a scrum cap, and some even wear shoulder protection, but in both cases they are padding only. That was the point I was making earlier...rugby has always done a great job with keeping plastic protection off the pitch b/c once it's allowed for even an ankle brace, the slippery slope begins.
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Post by fballcoachg on May 4, 2012 6:43:44 GMT -6
I may have misunderstood you coachd but I'm not sure we are trying to lessen the severity of the issue at hand (what can happen due to head trauma) or trying to avoid it all together. I think the fact that there has been such a constructive talk about it is a testament to that fact.
I am in the camp that believes there is an inherent risk in the game. I am also under the strong belief that in the high school game, where in my experience, the majority of the game is pushing and pulling, concussions and the long lasting effects of them are not AS prevalent as some make them out to be. I am not trying to lessen the effects of what happens when concussions occur or the steps we take before putting players back in. I am also a huge proponent of taking preventative measures and coaching the game as safely as possible as most all of us are. But I admittedly do not want our game to change especially at the prep level where I and most of the coaches on here coach because I genuinely do not believe that the danger is as grave as some make it out to be. As long as high schools offer the game I will continue to coach it and try to get kids out.
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Post by tractor on May 4, 2012 7:45:20 GMT -6
Why the heck is the helmet made out of hard plastic?
Because it supports the gladiator presentation of the sport. (It makes for exciting hits).
Human body has a hard skeletal structure surrounded by a soft fleshy protective padding. Seems like a very "intelligent design."
Why is it such a great leap of logic to even consider changing the "protective" design of that hard plastic weapon? A change in the helmet would result in a change in technique, and a resultant change in practice.
Future of the sport of football = bubble wrap
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Post by tog on May 4, 2012 7:45:26 GMT -6
I see both of those articles and much of the hysteria handwringing bedwetter stuff coming out like this as local news "if it bleeds it leads" sensationalism.
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 8:05:37 GMT -6
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Post by Chris Clement on May 4, 2012 8:08:32 GMT -6
If the shells weren't hard, they'd stick and twist people's necks. The hard shell disperses the impact to make it less localized, the padding diffuses it, absorbing energy and prolonging the duration of transfer. It's not a conscious fashion choice.
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 8:11:40 GMT -6
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Post by Coach Huey on May 4, 2012 8:15:47 GMT -6
can someone post the tests with more "controls" in them? i.e. the guy that passed away that played football from 7th grade through 12th grade, then lived a normal life and died.... what did those autopsies say about his brain? also, the group that played zero sports, lived fairly normally, then had an autopsy after they died...
I would like to see & compare these results side by side with those of NFL players, professional boxers, etc. That would help to give me a better understanding of trauma on the brain from when my players quit playing (after they graduate hs) compared to those that play into their 30's.
Also, it provides a better comparison for the 97% of football players - as only 3% (or less) will play football significantly past high school.
so, for those with the studies ... can you post links that compare a 'normal' non-football players brain vs a person that played in JH & HS only vs an NFL player's... thanks.
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 8:22:24 GMT -6
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 8:24:58 GMT -6
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Post by coachcb on May 4, 2012 8:25:05 GMT -6
can someone post the tests with more "controls" in them? i.e. the guy that passed away that played football from 7th grade through 12th grade, then lived a normal life and died.... what did those autopsies say about his brain? also, the group that played zero sports, lived fairly normally, then had an autopsy after they died... I would like to see & compare these results side by side with those of NFL players, professional boxers, etc. That would help to give me a better understanding of trauma on the brain from when my players quit playing (after they graduate hs) compared to those that play into their 30's. Also, it provides a better comparison for the 97% of football players - as only 3% (or less) will play football significantly past high school. so, for those with the studies ... can you post links that compare a 'normal' non-football players brain vs a person that played in JH & HS only vs an NFL player's... thanks. This is the issue with CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy): there aren't any bio-markers. Even a CAT, MRI, or PET scan doesn't show anything abnormal with the brain. They have symptoms of concussions but they also mimic a lot of other diseases. I went down the list of symptoms (tremors, migraines, gait problems, etc..) and my fiancee has exhibited quite a few. But, she never played football; she has MS. Honestly, there is no way to diagnose CTE. They don't really get a clear picture of what is going on until they do a brain autopsy.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 4, 2012 8:33:51 GMT -6
scientifically, isn't it hard to draw a direct conclusion if you have no control in the test? Shouldn't we try to develop a study that performs autopsies on those that have never played football, on those that played merely 6-8 years (youth through hs)...
cte isn't a joke, and i'm not making light of it. but, if playing football for 4 years gives one a 50% chance of having it (just made the number up for sake of the point) then shouldn't we have valid data to prove it, rather than base it only on data from nfl players?
if we are serious, then let's do serious research... create a more valid study.
if you study ONLY football players, then how do we know what type of brain activity the guy that does debate and likes to do tricks on his skateboard, or the cheerleader that does dance & gymnastics moves ... and the mechanic who hunts during deer season, ....
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Post by coachks on May 4, 2012 8:35:43 GMT -6
If the shells weren't hard, they'd stick and twist people's necks. The hard shell disperses the impact to make it less localized, the padding diffuses it, absorbing energy and prolonging the duration of transfer. It's not a conscious fashion choice. Come on. Really? I am truly amazed at these conversations. Many smart guys really miss the big picture. The issue is the equipment; how it (is not) worn, how it's designed and how to improve it. Lets look at mouthpieces to start. From a concussion standpoint, it's the 2nd most important (maybe THE MOST important) piece of equipment after the helmet. A quality mouth guard absorbs a ton of shock because it gives all that energy from a blow to the chin/top of the head to go (your jaw clenches, and instead of simply transferring that impact, the gel can absorb it. But they are not even mandatory in the NFL and a lot of players don't use them. At the high school level (maybe college, but I do not know) most teams give their kids the 50 cent strips of plastic that do nothing but protect the teeth. We'll hand a kid a $150 dollar helmet, $80 shoulder pads and a pair of $40 dollar jersey's....but there's no room in the budget for a $10-$20 dollar mouth guard. Next you get the other non-mandatory padding, knee pads and thigh pads. Obviously those pads do not do much for guy wearing the pads but they do provide padding for the defender who is hitting you. Taking a padded knee (or thigh) to the head is better than a un-padded one. But, in the name of speed/comfort we just skip that part of safety. Then you get to the design of the safety equipment. Hard plastic, which is going to increase the impact. You want pads that can absorb the impact, then a hard shell that can diffuse the impact. It's the same concept behind car safety. You used to have steel boxes that were safe because they were heavy and didn't dent, unfortunately, the people in the car got tossed around. Now you have cars with crumple zones that will absorb an impact. Going back to mouthpieces, if you go and buy a quality one they have a thick gel covering a plastic structure. The gel absorbs impact and the plastic provides protection by diffusing the impact. We need helmets and shoulder pads that can do the same thing. An absorbent outside, a hard inside. If I hadn't taken so many hits to the head, and was a little smarter I'd develop that stuff myself, but alas by brain is a worthless pile of mush after my HS football career.
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Post by coachcb on May 4, 2012 8:46:29 GMT -6
scientifically, isn't it hard to draw a direct conclusion if you have not control in the test? Shouldn't we try to develop a study that performs autopsies on those that have never played football, on those that played merely 6-8 years (youth through hs)... cte isn't a joke, and i'm not making light of it. but, if playing football for 4 years gives one a 50% chance of having it (just made the number up for sake of the point) then shouldn't we have valid data to prove it, rather than base it only on data from nfl players? if we are serious, then let's do serious research... create a more valid study. if you study ONLY football players, then how do we know what type of brain activity the guy that does debate and likes to do tricks on his skateboard, or the cheerleader that does dance & gymnastics moves ... and the mechanic who hunts during deer season, .... I agree with you, completely. I guess my point was that the condition (CTE) we are studying is hard to quantify as is. Even the brain autopsies are some what inconclusive. I'm not denying concussions are an issue, they are. My short college football career was cut even shorter because of them. I've dealt with some of the issues described in these articles, migraines being the nastiest. BUT, my neurologist can't definitively say that concussions from football caused the problems. He could say, with as much certainty, that I was in the early stages of MS but just didn't have any damage visible in an MRI. Or, a dozen other explanations. These articles are also stating that concussions are to blame for these players' issues. That the concussions are causing the mental illness that we are seeing. Now, again, I'm not denying that they are serious but the incidence of clinical depression and other mental illnesses in this country is far higher than that of concussions. I am not stating that this isn't a problem that needs addressed. However, addressing it seems to be very difficult because of the lack of diagnosable criterion.
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 8:47:02 GMT -6
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Post by Chris Clement on May 4, 2012 8:51:18 GMT -6
In a previous thread I eviscerated the Guardian Cap's website. They make some glaring errors in their descriptions, that don't inspire confidence, and all the "evidence" they show just links to fluff pieces. The few numbers they do show have fairly poor confidence values.
In short, the cap probably helps a little, but it's only at most 1/4" of padding. Their website is making claims that aren't really appropriate.
Coach Huey has a great point about the lack of control data, there isn't a solid number on how many "normal" people have varying degrees of CTE or related conditions, nor is there a good idea of how to define "normal."
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 9:03:33 GMT -6
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Post by tog on May 4, 2012 9:05:52 GMT -6
Tog I agree 100% but that is what people are reading and hearing on TV, Radio and Yahoo! lowest common denominator fodder for the most part the mere fact that so many out there have no idea that TANSTAAFL it's just sad
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Post by Coach Huey on May 4, 2012 9:10:01 GMT -6
then why aren't we comparing those results with those of the nfl players? what differences are present... etc. the link you posted... was a study on athletes. what is the risk vs a non-athlete? not all traffic accidents cause fatalities. but, through studies comparing speed involved, we can see that an increased speed increases the chances of a fatality. we didn't just compare nascar drivers, or compare accidents where the speed was a specific mph. we looked at all speeds, etc. there are multiple variables involved. start trying to eliminate some, pinpoint others.. that's what i'm saying. i can't make a conclusion because there are studies solely of those who played a sport. what would their brains possibly have looked like if they had never played? (i.e. start putting those up side-by-side) we know what someone's lungs look like if they have never smoked. we know what someone's lungs look like if they smoked for 30 years. we are able to clearly see the difference. i just want to read, see, understand the differences in brain trauma among the population as well.
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Post by coachbleu on May 4, 2012 9:13:19 GMT -6
This is football. It is violent. It is dangerous. They give them helmets because their heads run into things on the field. It's part of it. It will always be part of it.
Truly, all you hippies that wanna make it safe need to go play soccer or badminton.
This is called LIFE. You cannot make it safe. You cannot make it out of life alive. We are all in peril everyday that we are on this planet.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 4, 2012 9:15:32 GMT -6
This is called LIFE. You cannot make it safe. You cannot make it out of life alive. We are all in peril everyday that we are on this planet. do you wear your seat belt? why/why not? do you have your kids wear their seat belt? why/why not?
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 9:40:02 GMT -6
By the way tog, 60% of our students get a free lunch every day!
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Post by John Knight on May 4, 2012 9:47:56 GMT -6
www.aans.org/Patient%20Information/Conditions%20and%20Treatments/Sports-Related%20Head%20Injury.aspxFootball-related Head and Neck Injury Prevention Tips: ¡All players should receive pre-season physical exams, and those with a history of prior brain or spinal injuries, including concussions, should be identified. ¡Football players should receive adequate preconditioning, and strengthening of the head and neck muscles. ¡Coaches and officials should discourage players from using the top of their football helmets as battering rams when blocking, hitting, tackling and ball carrying. ¡Coaches, physicians and trainers should ensure that the players' equipment is properly fitted, especially the helmet, and that straps are always locked. ¡Coaches must be prepared for a possible catastrophic spinal cord injury. The entire staff must know what to do in such a case; being prepared and well informed might make all the difference in preventing permanent disability. ¡The rules prohibiting spearing (hitting another player with the crown of the helmet) should be enforced in practice and games. ¡Ball carriers should be taught to not lower their heads when making contact with the tackler to avoid helmet-to-helmet collisions.
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Post by coachbleu on May 4, 2012 9:50:06 GMT -6
I'm not suggesting to play without a helmet. I'm not suggesting to not use the best gear possible. What I am saying is that this sport is dangerous, just like riding in a car. You might get hurt. It's not anybody's fault. Sometimes life sucks.
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Post by Coach Huey on May 4, 2012 9:54:17 GMT -6
www.aans.org/Patient%20Information/Conditions%20and%20Treatments/Sports-Related%20Head%20Injury.aspxFootball-related Head and Neck Injury Prevention Tips: ¡All players should receive pre-season physical exams, and those with a history of prior brain or spinal injuries, including concussions, should be identified. ¡Football players should receive adequate preconditioning, and strengthening of the head and neck muscles. ¡Coaches and officials should discourage players from using the top of their football helmets as battering rams when blocking, hitting, tackling and ball carrying. ¡Coaches, physicians and trainers should ensure that the players' equipment is properly fitted, especially the helmet, and that straps are always locked. ¡Coaches must be prepared for a possible catastrophic spinal cord injury. The entire staff must know what to do in such a case; being prepared and well informed might make all the difference in preventing permanent disability. ¡The rules prohibiting spearing (hitting another player with the crown of the helmet) should be enforced in practice and games. ¡Ball carriers should be taught to not lower their heads when making contact with the tackler to avoid helmet-to-helmet collisions. maybe I missed it, but where was the data of brain trauma for someone mowing their yard? where was the brain trauma of someone building a deck onto their back patio? where was the brain activity of a 50 year old man that was changing his tire? i need something to compare it to. looking for the research that says: here is your brain after 50 years of living if you have been an auto mechanic that didn't play organized sports here is your brain after 50 years of living if you were an insurance salesman that liked to water ski 4 or 5 times a year during your 20's & 30's here is your brain after 50 years of living if you were a high school football player and wrestler, then went into the factory and worked 40 hours a week. is my brain going to be dramatically different when i die - since i was a high school football player - from someone of a similar age and lifestyle except they DIDN'T play any football? that is what I want to know. what is the disparity?
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