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Post by jlenwood on Apr 28, 2012 12:21:08 GMT -6
This is a question that I have had in my dome for quite a while now, and I would imagine there is a small crew of coaches on here that can answer, but what is the difference in administrations (particularly the AD) from a great, tradition rich athletic program (not just football but all sports) to a failing or bad athletic program?
I bring this up because of what I see at our school and some of the other area schools. Athletics seem to be on a downward spiral at some schools, while others maintain a certain greatness (for lack of a better word) year after year.
I have my own guesses, but I was curious if there is anyone who has gone from bad to great or great to bad, and what was the difference? I know student population, economics, cultural issues all come in to play, however at the programs I am talking about, these are not issues. So what is the difference?
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Post by gschwender on Apr 28, 2012 12:52:11 GMT -6
Check out the book prairie blitz by David almany. It tells the story of 3 football programs in the Midwest and how the correlation between a strong community and football program/school. Pretty good book
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 28, 2012 13:45:54 GMT -6
Our AD is absolutely terrible, yet our FB program continues its' tradition. Playoffs 18 of the past 26 years.
We're a small school, and really our AD has very, very little impact on our program's success. Our principal is very un-involved in athletics, but is supportive of our decisions. Our super is a little more involved and ultimately I think he's the guy that keeps us on the right path.
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Post by fantom on Apr 28, 2012 14:19:02 GMT -6
Our principal is very un-involved in athletics, but is supportive of our decisions. Our super is a little more involved and ultimately I think he's the guy that keeps us on the right path. There's a lot to be said for being left alone. |
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Post by groundchuck on Apr 28, 2012 18:57:11 GMT -6
Vision.
Leadership.
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Post by jlenwood on Apr 28, 2012 19:27:57 GMT -6
I am not a teacher, I own a business. So my point of view is from a business perspective. If one of your division leaders (AD) continues to have poor performance in their business division, they eventually are replaced. But with the schools, I see poor athletic performance over several years at some of these schools (where I coach also) and it seems as if nothing is wrong with the performance of the AD from a superintendent or principals veiwpoint. (Full disclosure, I like our AD and I think he does a nice administrative job, but not a good job of demanding more from his coaches).
Do principals and supers just think an AD is there to schedule and handle paperwork? It seems to me that at some point, the position of athletic director will be mandatory with a business degree, not an education degree (if an education degree is even needed now...I don't know). Because the truth is with athletics you are trying sell your product, which is the school system.
There is a district in our league that has the highest paid coaches around, tons of talent and they suck at everything year in and year out. Yet, there are 2-3 schools in our league where everything from school size to social and economic factors are about equal to every one else, and they are above average every year....boys and girls. So what do those schools do that the downhill schools don't?
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Post by davishfc on Apr 28, 2012 20:20:21 GMT -6
Aren't these the responsibilities of the head coach? Seems to me support is the most appropriate responsibility of any administrator toward a football program or, any athletic program, for that matter. That support obviously manifests itself in different ways based on the administrator's position within the district (Athletic Director, Principal, Superintendent). But like fantom said, there is a lot to be said for being left alone. If they're not supporting you, then they've become a barrier to success and, consequently, part of the problem. The best situation at that point would be if they just left you alone to do the job. But the other possibility is that they find someone else to do the job. |
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Post by coachjd on Apr 29, 2012 6:36:39 GMT -6
Aren't these the responsibilities of the head coach? Seems to me support is the most appropriate responsibility of any administrator toward a football program or, any athletic program, for that matter. That support obviously manifests itself in different ways based on the administrator's position within the district (Athletic Director, Principal, Superintendent). But like fantom said, there is a lot to be said for being left alone. If they're not supporting you, then they've become a barrier to success and, consequently, part of the problem. The best situation at that point would be if they just left you alone to do the job. But the other possibility is that they find someone else to do the job. If the AD or admin does not support the coaches vision and leadership ability the program and staff is doomed. Our vision over the past few years has been "Excellence through Teamwork" Trying to get everyone (parents, players, asst coaches etc... ) all to buy into the team. Made some personnel decisions with some players based on this. When parents called and complained AD did not support our decision and killed us. Parents talk and after 6 years of this I finally told admin to find someone else. |
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Coach H
Sophomore Member
Posts: 146
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Post by Coach H on Apr 29, 2012 8:27:04 GMT -6
Coaches,
I have been coaching for nine years now. I have not worked for a good administration as of yet. I'm not saying they weren't good people. I'm saying times have changed. I hear stories from older coaches that had the support that you and I are looking for.
Thanks,
Coach H.
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Post by blb on Apr 29, 2012 8:41:39 GMT -6
As far as "support," that means administrators stand up for you against criticism or complaints, not just give you an "Attaboy" after a win.
All I want then is a level playing field, a chance to compete. That our opponents have no undue advantage over us.
Administrators can provide the infrastructure and policies to insure that. Or they can go the other way.
And fantom's point about being left alone to run your program has a lot of merit, too.
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Post by coachbrek on Apr 29, 2012 9:03:41 GMT -6
From what I have seen is if the AD does not have the support of the administration then he simply is nothing more that a guy who schedules games and I think that's what our super wants.
We have a revolving door with our AD's here, we are on our third in 5 years, and it is a direct result of the super not giving a crap about athletics. Even if the AD has the coaches back or the AD needs to cut a coach loose the super does not have the AD's back, its a lose lose situation. The AD's hands are tied, it is absolutely impossible for our AD to be effective at his job.
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Post by jlenwood on Apr 29, 2012 9:12:08 GMT -6
I guess my point as far as the AD goes is this, shouldn't the athletic department and all of those involve in an athletic department be on the same page? I look at this as how would I do it. Not that my way is the right way, but some systems I believe are set up to fail or perform poorly.
For example, how many AD's have all of the coaches together to go over how some sports are doing well and some aren't, and how do we help each other with ideas and organizations? How do we emulate what some other schools are doing successfully?How can some coaches in your system excel and some just flat don't? And this may be the "no shiz" statement of the year, but if you don't have the right people coaching nothing gets done anyway. So why not make changes and have an athletic departments vision and goals/results/expectations known to all in the organization?
I agree that if you have a program that is well coached, leave us alone to do our work. But why not try to influence the other sports in your school to get on the same page and apply these successful processes to their sport.
Done preaching, just looking for ideas and ways for our school to improve the department and improve the kids. Thanks.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 29, 2012 9:27:22 GMT -6
Well, what "is" the job of a H.S. Athletic director? I would say that H.S are set up so different (from school to school, district to district, state to state etc) that it would be hard to compare apples to apples on this one. What some may say is the job of an AD, may be the job of a principal in some places, and the jobs of HC's in other places.
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Post by davishfc on Apr 29, 2012 12:53:12 GMT -6
If the AD or admin does not support the coaches vision and leadership ability the program and staff is doomed. Agreed. Our vision over the past few years has been "Excellence through Teamwork" Trying to get everyone (parents, players, asst coaches etc... ) all to buy into the team. This is outstanding. I have a boat analogy that I use within our program with players and coaches about rowing in the direction of success. There's more to it than that but you understand. I want to include the parents, administration, and community members also in this analogy with the slogan "All Aboard." Sounds like a great idea to me but I'm biased. Made some personnel decisions with some players based on this. When parents called and complained AD did not support our decision and killed us. Parents talk and after 6 years of this I finally told admin to find someone else. When you lose the support of your administration, assuming it was ever even there, it's the beginning of the end. Good for you for fighting the good fight and doing what you thought was right for so long. But good for you as well, to let them know that what they're doing isn't right. Now they can find someone else. They'll eventually realize they made a mistake, though they won't tell anyone because administration is always right. |
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z
Junior Member
Posts: 332
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Post by z on Apr 30, 2012 11:25:25 GMT -6
Coach Davishfc,
I totally agree with you. Just came out of a situation where I never had the full support of the administration of the school. Fought the good fight for almost 7 years before giving it to them. It was the best decision that I made for my family and myself (was actually having problems physically trying to hold up under the undue stress). One of the questions that any HC needs to ask administration: "what is your vision for our football program?" The answer to that question will give you tremendous insight into the type of people that you will be working with.
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Post by davishfc on Apr 30, 2012 17:06:00 GMT -6
One of the questions that any HC needs to ask administration: "what is your vision for our football program?" The answer to that question will give you tremendous insight into the type of people that you will be working with. I absolutely agree Z. |
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Post by davishfc on Apr 30, 2012 20:59:53 GMT -6
Well, what "is" the job of a H.S. Athletic director? I would say that H.S are set up so different (from school to school, district to district, state to state etc) that it would be hard to compare apples to apples on this one. What some may say is the job of an AD, may be the job of a principal in some places, and the jobs of HC's in other places. Very true. In some smaller districts in Michigan, administration positions have been consolidated so the Assistant Principal is the Athletic Director and vice versa. |
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Post by craines10 on Jun 3, 2012 10:43:51 GMT -6
Last school I was at the AD wanted to be Al Davis. He seemed to feel that if he purchased the equipment/resources we needed then his opinion on football related matters needed to be taken into consideration. Example: I am in the teachers' lounge one day and he says "Hey it would be great to see Spencer run that Wildcat" I nodded and brushed it off. The following week he asks our head coach why I have not put in the Wildcat for Spencer like he asked....He was horrible
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Post by 19delta on Jun 3, 2012 12:22:21 GMT -6
As far as "support," that means administrators stand up for you against criticism or complaints, not just give you an "Attaboy" after a win. All I want then is a level playing field, a chance to compete. That our opponents have no undue advantage over us. Administrators can provide the infrastructure and policies to insure that. Or they can go the other way. And fantom's point about being left alone to run your program has a lot of merit, too. Warning...thread hijack ahead... blb...I just gotta say this... You are the man!I would coach for you for free! I don't think I have ever read a post of yours that I have disagreed with. |
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Post by kingsx on Jun 3, 2012 21:02:35 GMT -6
supt- terry due
asst supt- lance west
principal- jon coleman,k chronister,k boomer
AD- jim riley
MS Principal- dale harp/k hamlin
school board
faculity
support staff
We are fortunate to have a great ADMIN ,school board, and staff in Collinsville,OK. We may not have the best facilities, but we have a support group that really cares about kids.
Coach'm up
kings X
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