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Post by holmesbend on Mar 19, 2012 21:29:42 GMT -6
Ok, I'm going to try and give a brief run down of the situation, then sign off...shut up..and listen to you guys.
I just took over at the school where I have been an assistant the past four years (the last 3 as the DC...I got the job over Christmas break). We are a rural county school of about 715 kids in KY and have finished with around 40 kids give or take a few by end of each year, grades 9-12. The past 7 years, we have literally been a .500 program (39-39 over that time).
Next year, our numbers by class are looking like this:
Sr's -7 to 11 (depends on if a few of them want to get with it or not)
Jr's - 15 (great group...not very talented, but WANT to be good)
Soph- 3 (two for sure, one will be first year players, never played b4)
Frosh- 16-20 (we will have 16 for sure, solid group)
Now, here is the dilemma.....we are giving incentives to those who meet their offseason requirements (grades, attendance, etc) by buying their Spirit Pack and other goodies for them (gloves, first dibs on the new revo speeds we are getting, etc.)...all the while holding those who don't meet requirements, accountable (will have to pay for spirit pack and also have to make up X amounts of workouts come July if they plan on playing).
But...as you can see...our numbers aren't great as is and the sophomore class is unlike anything I've ever been around in my life (and I've never been part of a school with over 900 kids...as a player or coach). I want to get kids out and getting them out in that class is Public Enemy #1......so, how do I try to get kids out in that class from here on out, all the while holding them accountable as I have been doing with the rest?
FYI....this current freshmen, soon to be sophomore class isnt just a thorn in the side for our football program, but there are only 4 of them playing baseball (2 of them are football players) and our freshman basketball team won 3 games this year. Our baseball team has won 10 straight district titles and our basketball team has won 4 straight in their own right. Decent programs to say the least.
I know....nothing about this was short, my apologies. All suggestions welcomed..thanks guys.
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Post by grouchy71 on Mar 19, 2012 22:42:32 GMT -6
Coach,
I feel for you, I'm in a similar situation entering my 2nd year as HC. The way I figure it, I needed to start with making things a positive experience at the high school, which we were able to do by and large last year. Some good word of mouth is being spread, starting to get a couple more kids coming out of the woodwork who want to play next year. We're able to keep the incentive type structure you described without any negative effects because it's positive in nature, it rewards those who do the work, without really "punishing" the others. I like the way you have that structured. The real issue for us, and I'm guessing for you, is to do whatever we can to get young people in the community playing football BEFORE they get to high school. This is a more complicated issue, one I'm working on now, and I have a lot more questions than answers. This is really where the biggest payoff would be for us, it would prevent us from having to scramble each year to recruit new first time players from the current high school population, that can be so time-intensive, and is really only a band-aid solution in my mind. I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this as well.
Grouch
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 7:27:10 GMT -6
Coach, tell me this- This upcoming 10th grade class, are they just sorry human beings or are they good kids who just aren't interested in football right now? This makes a big difference, IMHO. In my own experience, classes with very few football players also tend to be low-character groups. Not many hard workers, bad attitudes, trouble makers, etc. If that is the case, then bugger them. Dont graft a cancer into your locker room for the sake of numbers.
On the other hand, if they're good kids that just aren't really into football, winning might fix that up. Also, I'm sure you've done this already, but in case you haven't, just pulling some kids aside individually and telling them you'd love to have them come give football a try can work wonders. Kids like that special attention, especially if they've never really done sports or anything and never had any reason to think anybody would want them around.
But by all means, if the class is just generally full of turds...shoot the hostage and forget about em.
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Post by blb on Mar 20, 2012 7:49:36 GMT -6
holmes, I have been in your position.
One bad class such as you describe can really set a program back, especially at a smaller school.
However sounds like you have made up your mind.
If you're going to make kids who don't meet "expectations" in Off-Season pay for stuff others get free and make-up things they didn't do before being allowed to play, you aren't going to get any more out.
So you can bring the 2-3 Sophomores that do play up to Varsity and maybe lose them - guaranteeing you virtually NO senior class in three years, or combine them with Freshmen, which may set that group back if they have to play "up" (don't know if you have separate JV and Freshman teams).
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Post by CoachHess on Mar 20, 2012 8:08:36 GMT -6
Coach I can relate completely. We started an incentive program as well in January and had awesome numbers our first day. Haven't seen half those kids since. They found out that we work in the weight room, not just goof off like years past. On a normal day, we have about 15 kids after school. Of those 15, 2/3 are rising freshmen. Which means only 5 kids in the high school are working out after school with the football team. Sure we have some kids who run track and some who do baseball, but we have several who will show up August 1st.
The ones you have....coach em up. You can't take a horse to water and make him drink it. I'd make sure the 2 sophs I have are Co-POY their senior years. I'd love to have about 20 more kids walking our halls play ball, but they are lazy, shifty, turds who don't like sunlight, sweat, work, getting dirty, etc.
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Post by dsa0305 on Mar 20, 2012 8:12:53 GMT -6
I got my current job three years ago, and thought that I had landed a dream job. Small school with lots of tradition, community pride, always compete for a playoff spot, good hard working kids...you get the picture.
When I actually get here I find all of the above is true, except one thing, I have a class that at the time were going to be Sophomores that had 0 participating. It wasn't a football thing, it was in everything. This group of boys literally did nothing but go home at 3:45. That killed our numbers, and put us behind where we should be. For the past three years we have had to play Freshmen on varsity. Needless to say that class will finally graduate this year. I tried very hard at first to get some of those kids out, but in the end that was a mistake, they didn't want to be there in the first place and all they eventually did was quit.
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Post by CoachHess on Mar 20, 2012 9:44:51 GMT -6
You can't take a horse to water and make him drink it. but you can hold his head under water til he drowns. I think I'd enjoy being on your staff!! |
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Post by holmesbend on Mar 20, 2012 10:08:28 GMT -6
Coach, I feel for you, I'm in a similar situation entering my 2nd year as HC. The way I figure it, I needed to start with making things a positive experience at the high school, which we were able to do by and large last year. Some good word of mouth is being spread, starting to get a couple more kids coming out of the woodwork who want to play next year. We're able to keep the incentive type structure you described without any negative effects because it's positive in nature, it rewards those who do the work, without really "punishing" the others. I like the way you have that structured. The real issue for us, and I'm guessing for you, is to do whatever we can to get young people in the community playing football BEFORE they get to high school. This is a more complicated issue, one I'm working on now, and I have a lot more questions than answers. This is really where the biggest payoff would be for us, it would prevent us from having to scramble each year to recruit new first time players from the current high school population, that can be so time-intensive, and is really only a band-aid solution in my mind. I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this as well. Grouch See, that's the thing that blows me away. I can honestly say that our LL is in very good shape and our MS next year will have a solid 40-45 in 7th and 8th grade....20-25 in each class. Good group of kids. I totally agree about developing a positive relationship. Kids these days are so much different..and I graduated high school 12 years ago. I'd a given anything for just a random pat on the back/head "Great job!" every now and then.....much less a mass text message like I sent out the other day after workouts to about 10 of our kids..praising them for their great max out performances in the weight room. Thanks coach. |
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Post by holmesbend on Mar 20, 2012 10:14:48 GMT -6
holmes, I have been in your position. One bad class such as you describe can really set a program back, especially at a smaller school. However sounds like you have made up your mind. If you're going to make kids who don't meet "expectations" in Off-Season pay for stuff others get free and make-up things they didn't do before being allowed to play, you aren't going to get any more out. So you can bring the 2-3 Sophomores that do play up to Varsity and maybe lose them - guaranteeing you virtually NO senior class in three years, or combine them with Freshmen, which may set that group back if they have to play "up" (don't know if you have separate JV and Freshman teams). That's what I'm worried about right there. Quite honestly, I'm thinking that I will just combine them with the freshmen. Coach, I try my darnest not to be one of these coaches who blame the kids for not getting stuff done...I love and honestly try to coach by the "You're either coaching it wrong or letting it happen." approach, but these soon to be sophomores....1 MIGHT play as a junior and the other two...if they are back-ups by their senior year, then it will be a miracle...it really will. By the way......how did you come out/survive that year or years this happened to you? Will the quote from Christmas Vacation, "I had a lot of help from Jack Daniel's!" be appropriate?!?  |
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Post by holmesbend on Mar 20, 2012 10:30:25 GMT -6
Coach, tell me this- This upcoming 10th grade class, are they just sorry human beings or are they good kids who just aren't interested in football right now? This makes a big difference, IMHO. In my own experience, classes with very few football players also tend to be low-character groups. Not many hard workers, bad attitudes, trouble makers, etc. If that is the case, then bugger them. Dont graft a cancer into your locker room for the sake of numbers. On the other hand, if they're good kids that just aren't really into football, winning might fix that up. Also, I'm sure you've done this already, but in case you haven't, just pulling some kids aside individually and telling them you'd love to have them come give football a try can work wonders. Kids like that special attention, especially if they've never really done sports or anything and never had any reason to think anybody would want them around. But by all means, if the class is just generally full of turds...shoot the hostage and forget about em. Coach Nix, They arent bad kids at all, if anything, they are too good...if ever such a thing. They just dont seem to be interested. Not to use this as a crutch or an excuse, but like I said in my original post....it's not just a pandemic for our football program, but they only won 3 games in freshmen basketball (Varsity just completed a 4 Peat of their District) and only 3-4 of them in the entire class are playing baseball (our baseball team has won 10 straight district championships). Now...there are a few canerous types in the senior class that might not be playing, and quite honestly, if they cant change their ways...I dont want them too. If they change....Ill have 11 in that class...if they dont, Ill have 7. Thankfully though, if I just end up having 7 in the senior class, they are all solid kids...very coachable...want to win...all started as juniors. |
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Post by holmesbend on Mar 20, 2012 10:35:37 GMT -6
That's tough and I don't really have an answer just a thought...whatever that's worth... but coach, if you feel like you have to beg them or are begging them - they just aren't worth it, they will be more problem than they are worth and borrowing from another thread, they probably won't be worth a chit because they won't have any heart. and I also think you may gain some ground with other kids in the school by just recruiting around that class. I know for me, the hammers I swung on my senior class this year and the BS I put an end to has brought more kids out and back out. Heck we had 46 kids in the weight room yesterday - not bad considering we only return 33 off last year's team and 5 of those aren't playing anymore and the 8 baseball players weren't there. so...though you may not like it because of the numbers - addition by subtraction is sometimes best. Get more guys out in the other 2 classes.[/quote] Totally agree. Im thinking that's what Im going to do. I've been really involved with the incoming freshmen class and have been real involved with the 7th and 8th graders next year as well from the time they were in youth league. I feel like we've really made some strides in building positive relationships with those kids I appreciate your input coach and really enjoy reading your posts. You definately sound like a guy who knows what he's doing. Your comments are greatly appreciated. |
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Post by blb on Mar 20, 2012 10:40:19 GMT -6
I'm more a Johnnie Walker guy personally.
We brought our small class up to Varsity as Sophomores to keep Freshmen together. When those Freshmen were Seniors they won a co-championship, first at school in about 16 years.
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Post by holmesbend on Mar 20, 2012 10:41:08 GMT -6
Coach I can relate completely. We started an incentive program as well in January and had awesome numbers our first day. Haven't seen half those kids since. They found out that we work in the weight room, not just goof off like years past. On a normal day, we have about 15 kids after school. Of those 15, 2/3 are rising freshmen. Which means only 5 kids in the high school are working out after school with the football team. Sure we have some kids who run track and some who do baseball, but we have several who will show up August 1st. The ones you have....coach em up. You can't take a horse to water and make him drink it. I'd make sure the 2 sophs I have are Co-POY their senior years. I'd love to have about 20 more kids walking our halls play ball, but they are lazy, shifty, turds who don't like sunlight, sweat, work, getting dirty, etc. Isnt it a shame? I understand now why kids these days actively want to play basektball and baseball only...year round. Heck, all they do is play. Our baseball team opens up today and bt now and April 20, they play 20 games. So guess what.....those 16-20 freshmen Ill have next year have a total of 18 9th and JV games. Once the season begins they will be playing on Mondays (2/3 of them will play JV...the other 30% will be those 3 sophomores and 3-4 juniors) and all of them will be playing on Thursday's. Granted...if our numbers get even lower, some of those JV games will be cancelled. But I'm selling it to these freshmen as though they will be playing twice a week...we'll see what happens. Anybody think I'm wrong in that approach and have other opinions? Thanks again coach, and to the rest of you again. |
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Post by holmesbend on Mar 20, 2012 10:43:55 GMT -6
I'm more a Johnnie Walker guy personally. We brought our small class up to Varsity as Sophomores to keep Freshmen together. When those Freshmen were Seniors they won a co-championship, first at school in about 16 years. Ole' Johnnie is a good man. I'd have to agree. Evan Williams is main guy. |
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Post by fantom on Mar 20, 2012 11:11:02 GMT -6
I think it's just one of those things. Different classes have different personalities and unfortunately this class is a bunch of deadheads.
Last year at my old school every day there was a double face-palm moment with our JVs. Didn't know why. Then one day it all came clear in the newspaper. They printed the Honor Roll and, out of a class of about 400 freshmen, a grand total of 38 made the A or A/B Honor Roll. Freakin mystery solved.
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Post by holmesbend on Mar 20, 2012 11:49:16 GMT -6
That's tough and I don't really have an answer just a thought...whatever that's worth... but coach, if you feel like you have to beg them or are begging them - they just aren't worth it, they will be more problem than they are worth and borrowing from another thread, they probably won't be worth a chit because they won't have any heart.and I also think you may gain some ground with other kids in the school by just recruiting around that class. I know for me, the hammers I swung on my senior class this year and the BS I put an end to has brought more kids out and back out. Heck we had 46 kids in the weight room yesterday - not bad considering we only return 33 off last year's team and 5 of those aren't playing anymore and the 8 baseball players weren't there. so...though you may not like it because of the numbers - addition by subtraction is sometimes best. Get more guys out in the other 2 classes. I agree with this as well. For example, we have a kid in our current sophomore class who is one of these 6'0 220 (legit 220) lbs hoop stars that just so happens to be the post player. As I said to him a month or so back..."Son, are you watching the same college games I'm watching?" Obviously he hasnt gotten the memo that colleges, I dont care what level, aren't in high demand of kids his size playing in the post....or even at a guard spot these days...not unless you can jump out of the gym and/or go from 0-60 in 2.3. This kid came out last year for two weeks...one of which was our week of 2 a days....was playing TE. What's he do? Quit the week after 2 a days....the week of our first scrimmage.  Anyway...If I've heard people say, "Coach, you have to get him out!" once, I've heard it a thousand times.....and, Im not messing with him anymore...nothing personal...great kid, just not the type we need on our team. The way I look at it....if a kid his size, who has played football in his younger years doesn't want to come out and has to be coddled/ego stroked, etc. in hopes of getting him out...then to heck with him. I dont need him. |
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Post by cnunley on Mar 21, 2012 7:20:58 GMT -6
I've coached at a small school of around 350 students for 4 years now.
This past season we had 3 SR's and 1 JR.....I'll repeat that. 3 SR's and 1 JR.
Sophomore and Freshmen classes are great by our standards with around 15 in each class.
We started 1 SR, 8 SO's and 2 FR every game last year. Needless to say we took our lumps.
But those sad numbers are not just the football program here. Basketball team had 0 SR's. Baseball team has 3 SR's. Track team has 82 on their roster....3 SR's
The SR class that is about to graduate (God willing) is the sorryest/worst/pathetic group of kids I've ever seen/known in my entire life. Bad character kids, always getting in trouble, lazy, good for nothing, "can I take your order" future kids. And unfortunately, the JR class behind them isn't much better.
So we've stayed away from those grades for two years now. We've tried to recruit some of the good kids from the group but never got any out....for any sport. Our Sophomores and freshmen see what has happened to the losers ahead of them so they work their tails off to "not be like those guys"
I agree with most thats already been said. You win with people. Recruit good character kids that want to be there. As soon as you start begging the "good athletes" they start thinking they are above the team. And once the chit hits the fan they are the first to quit.
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boug
Junior Member
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Post by boug on Mar 21, 2012 11:15:55 GMT -6
Same boat here coaches, Very small school, graduating classes are 50-60 kids. Our Sr class this year has 3 returning players, our Sophmore class has 2. We have 13 returning players total and 11 Freshman coming up. Needless to say we have small numbers. What we usually do is recruit during basketball and baseball games to get upper classmen out. Usually we can pull in 2-4 kids from a Jr. or Sr. class each year to help with numbers. We also can do a member to member program with other schools that do not have football. The bad part is all public schools around us have football so we scour for the small private schools to see if we can get a couple kids to play. We usually end up in mid to high 20's for numbers but lose a few along the way and the last 3 years ended up in the low 20's at the end of the season.
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Post by coachcb on Mar 21, 2012 11:39:10 GMT -6
I work at a very small school (120 kids) and I literally had no sophomores and two freshman out this year. Had a big junior and senior class but that's it.
I sent all kinds of letters out, recruited kids in the halls, made phone calls (etc) and it didn't do a bit of good. I finally got tired of the excuses so I just stopped. And, I'm not just talking about not having a good team, I'm talking about not having a program. There's only so much you can do, coach and there are times when it's best to cut your losses and focus on the kids that want to play football and be involved. There are just classes that have an idiot, lazy pack mentality where they're all too good for anything other than d-cking around.
I've resigned from my teaching/coaching position here for various reasons (football being the least) but they might have numbers next year. A lot of kids want to play football now that we won a few games last year so whoever takes over may have a less stressful time than I did.
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Post by olcoach53 on Mar 21, 2012 12:21:53 GMT -6
I hate the "you have to get him out" kids because only 1/10 ends up working out. We have so many kids walking through our hallways who "can be good" but will never "work" to be good.
On the flip side our senior class from 2 years ago had a VERY rough sophomore season. The 3 best sophomore players started varsity so the JV suffered and only had 8 guys and then the rest were freshman. They managed to win 2 games but the freshman got good reps and time up. Those seniors went 9-3 during the 2010 season and really turned the program around.
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Post by coachking8 on Mar 21, 2012 12:42:09 GMT -6
I went through something similiar when I went to a new school a few years back. The varsity program was in its first year with just juniors and two sophomores. That group of juniors lost one game in their previous two seasons on JV and Frosh. But, the sophomore class was a complete void of both talent and dedication. I got the job of JV HC, and it was a nightmare getting kids out. First day of practice I had nine kids out for JV football. I beat the bushes. By week 3 I had 39 kids out. I recruited kids that were basketball players, baseball players, wrestlers, kids who'd never played an organized sport, kids that were just good students and wanted to have a jersey to wear, juniors who had quit sometime down the line and just needed to be talked into playing again, etc. I literally walked up to any kid that I thought was either a decent looking athlete or a decent kid/student and begged them to come out for football.
We had a decent year, but I won games with a lot of scheming and tons of "smoke and mirrors" to hide our team flaws. By their senior year that sophomore class had about five kids left in the program and they went 1-9, with their only win coming against a brand new school playing with only juniors. I think they scored something like 39 points for the entire season. The two kids that played varsity as sophomores transferred to other schools because they saw it coming.
The moral of the story is this: no matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig. I would say cut your losses with a group of kids that aren't talented or dedicated and focus on what you do have. If you have a decent frosh group coming in and a good feeder program then the well isn't going to stay dry for long. Keeping all of those turds in our program for three years actually set us back while we were building the program. You might take it on the chin for a year or two, but it's better to build for the long term than it is to try to polish a turd to get one decent year out of that group.
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Post by coachiminime on Mar 21, 2012 15:55:58 GMT -6
I was going to post a similar story. Coaches we are in the same boat with the numbers year in year out. Coach we made the mistake of relyin gon kids whonever played JV or first time seniors because of our small numbers. Sitck to your guns and play the youn gkids, who love football. Down the road it will pay off coach. I hate losing but I hate losing with kids that do not love and respect this game even more.
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