|
|
Post by coachjr on Feb 28, 2012 7:53:33 GMT -6
I'd like to hear what rules you might have for attendance at your off season program. We realize you can't make it "mandatory" but how do you handle kids who are not presently in a school sport and miss work-outs and/or don't call or text to communicate why they will be absent.
I am not sure if our athletic director would back us on this but we are considering a 3 (misses) and you're out policy. We realize things come up but not communicating the reason is inexcusable (at least in our eyes).
Be interested in hearing what policies you use. Thanks
|
|
|
|
Post by blb on Feb 28, 2012 7:58:46 GMT -6
I'd like to hear what rules you might have for attendance at your off season program. We realize you can't make it "mandatory" I am not sure if our athletic director would back us on this but we are considering a 3 (misses) and you're out policy. What does that mean? They are dropped from the program? How can you do that if off season program is not "mandatory"? I hope your AD doesn't back you. Cutting kids from HS Football for not showing up in Winter is unethical and self-defeating. |
|
|
|
Post by jgordon1 on Feb 28, 2012 8:20:08 GMT -6
we try to use peer pressure whenever possible..much more effective coming from a kid than a coach
|
|
|
|
Post by coachhart on Feb 28, 2012 8:30:51 GMT -6
we try to use peer pressure whenever possible..much more effective coming from a kid than a coach Exactly - our LB jumped on the busses before they left and 'gathered' some of the younger football players as they were trying to leave for the day. He delivered these young men to the weight room - way more effective than a call home from any of the coaches! |
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Feb 28, 2012 9:25:36 GMT -6
If you can't make it mandatory to come to offseason workouts how can you make a policy? We're also in a state where we can't have mandatory workouts. If a player is missing here's what we do:
1. Talk to him. If the problem continues we
2. Get teammates to talk to him (I agree that peer pressure works best). If that doesn't work we
3. Call his parents. If that doesn't work we
4. Move him down in the depth chart. Sometimes, though, he's a good enough football player
to win the job anyway. If that happens a lot, if too many kids can win a position despite
the fact that they aren't very strong, we
5. Lose.
If you want to drive yourself nuts, keep trying to control things that you have no power over.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Feb 28, 2012 9:37:48 GMT -6
I have never worked in a program where we could tell he a kid he couldn't play for not attending off-season workouts. We couldn't even open our mouths about it without having a parent on our butts. For example, the volleyball coach was running an open gym workout one year and was marking down who showed up for her own point system. A parent recorded it on a phone, whined that the workout was "mandatory", and that was the end of ALL open gyms.
But, as coaches, we can set lettering and captain requirements (as well as post season award nominations) and that can be tied into the point system. Make ___ % of points in the winter and spring and ___% in the summer and you can letter and be eligible for captain status. Losing playing time for loafing can just be an unspoken rule set by example during the season.
My guys learned a hard lesson about how I deal with post-season honors this year. I nominated two players for all-conference awards. Both of them were good enough and had worked hard in the off-season. The rest of the coaches at the conference agreed with me on those two being nominated and pushed for another kid of ours; a friggin stud TE. Several coaches didn't just think he should be nominated for all-conference but for all-state and the all-star game. I shut them down; the kid is a lazy sloth who spent no time getting better in the off-season. I had to ride him all year to get anything out of him. So, NO NOMINATION FOR HIM.
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Feb 28, 2012 9:41:00 GMT -6
Fantom- great point that we cannot worry about controlling things that are out of our power. However, can't we all control playing time? Not being a wiseguy here but asking a serious question. If I am 2nd on the depth chart but go into the off-season and bust my rear while the 1st team kid does nothing and we get to fall camp and within a couple of weeks he takes my spot.... what message has been sent? That one kid has more talent than the other. |
|
|
|
Post by flexoption91 on Feb 28, 2012 9:42:15 GMT -6
Fantom- great point that we cannot worry about controlling things that are out of our power. However, can't we all control playing time? Not being a wiseguy here but asking a serious question. If I am 2nd on the depth chart but go into the off-season and bust my rear while the 1st team kid does nothing and we get to fall camp and within a couple of weeks he takes my spot.... what message has been sent? The message being sent is that kid is not very good. If you bust your butt all year and lose the spot in two weeks to a guy who does nothing it does not bode well for us. Like fantom said, if that happens the losses will follow. |
|
|
|
Post by blb on Feb 28, 2012 9:43:32 GMT -6
If I am 2nd on the depth chart but go into the off-season and bust my rear while the 1st team kid does nothing and we get to fall camp and within a couple of weeks he takes my spot.... what message has been sent? It sends the message that HS Football is a meritocracy - the best players play. Are you going to play the 2nd best kid because he came to more off-season activities? Life is not fair. Kids need to learn to deal with it. If they want a guarantee, tell 'em to go to Midas. |
|
|
|
Post by blb on Feb 28, 2012 9:51:10 GMT -6
The message being sent is that kid is not very good. If you bust your butt all year and lose the spot in two weeks to a guy who does nothing it does not bode well for us. Like fantom said, if that happens the losses will follow. Exactly. As HS coaches we are at the mercy of the kids who choose to participate in our programs. if you have a talented group that is also dedicated to doing what it takes to be successful, you have a chance to do some good things. If not, well, you can always hope your opponents are worse than you are. |
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Feb 28, 2012 10:03:41 GMT -6
Sure we have a program. In fact I think we have a very good offseason program.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigm0073 on Feb 28, 2012 10:07:16 GMT -6
Social Darwinism....
We also have extreme peer pressure from players....
We actually are turning kids away (poor grades, poor practice habits, behavior problems, not about it..).
|
|
|
|
Post by bigm0073 on Feb 28, 2012 10:13:04 GMT -6
This is also why I prefer going one platoon.. Weed out the "baggage" and have kids who are ALL ABOUT IT! IMO you win with those kids... At least we have... Rather have 20 - 35 of those types on Friday nigh than an additional 20 - 30 kids you chase around school, campus and they never really do anything for you. And many of them of them are your back ups  By having our players play both ways it creates a HIGHLY competative off season. Players know there are very, very limited amount of positions and only the strongest will get them. Our best players usually gobble up two or more... Players limited in physical ability have to out work, out hustle and really, really, really want it to play Friday Nights. The weaker kids that do not desire to workout with us usually fade away and go away... Kind of explains the Social Darwinism approach.... Not for everyone but our players really buy into it and like it. |
|
|
|
Post by CoachHam55 on Feb 28, 2012 10:13:24 GMT -6
Similar to nascaroffense, we have a point system. However, we use the points as a competition for incentives not as a make/cut tool. Got the idea from someone on here.
Equipment, jersey numbers, front of food line passes, website recognition, t-shirts, No Conditioning passes, and other incentives are earned based upon the number of point accumulated.
If we get new Speed Revo helmets, points earned determines who gets them. If you have a certain number you want, you better have the most points to guarantee that number.
We incorporate all of this into our Power Squads, which are teams across all grade levels. Each Squad has a Senior (or upper class leader if not enough seniors) assigned as the captain, who will draft his squad based on accountability, not popularity. He wants the kids who will earn the most points. The Power Squad with the most points get various incentives: usually meals or extra gear like sweatshirts, jackets or the like. Plus, the highest point total Power Squad leader will get special recognition.
This works better for our kids than punishment. Not the best for every situation but it works for us.
AJ
|
|
|
|
Post by blb on Feb 28, 2012 10:27:59 GMT -6
A coach in our area took over at a school that traditionally had been pretty good in Football, enrollment between 650-700 (although like everyone in our state it's below that now).
He instituted a five day-a-week off-season program with make-ups on Saturday mornings.
Without getting into all the specifics, his policy was you had to participate in 90% of the off-season stuff to be on the Varsity, 80% to be on the Junior Varsity.
After a 1-8 first season, they went on a run where they won two state championships in four years.
They had players signed by several D-I schools including Michigan.
Down side was they never had more than a couple dozen kids on the team and struggled to field JV and Freshman teams because they usually did not have enough Sophomores due to the 80% requirement.
And then the D-I players left, and despite the coach's formerly "successful" off-season program-demands, the team went 3-6, 4-5, 2-7 until he quit.
Their program still hasn't recovered. Last season our JVs beat them 74-0 (61-0 at half largely due to four defensive TDs) and they dropped the team the next week.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigm0073 on Feb 28, 2012 10:33:40 GMT -6
A coach in our area took over at a school that traditionally had been pretty good in Football, enrollment between 650-700 (although like everyone in our state it's below that now). He instituted a five day-a-week off-season program with make-ups on Saturday mornings. Without getting into all the specifics, his policy was you had to participate in 90% of the off-season stuff to be on the Varsity, 80% to be on the Junior Varsity. wow that is over the top... 5 days plus saturdays? 90% - 80%... At some point it has to come from "within" too.. Players have to want it more than or as much as the coaches.. In our state we are in the middle of a dead period until end of this week - like 10 days... I was getting all kinds of text and emails Sunday asking if the players could workout. Right from them... Couple of our kids had workouts with the players at a local gym with about 10 guys... I thought that was pretty cool on showed some nice leadership. After a 1-8 first season, they went on a run where they won two state championships in four years. They had players signed by several D-I schools including Michigan. Down side was they never had more than a couple dozen kids on the team and struggled to field JV and Freshman teams because they usually did not have enough Sophomores due to the 80% requirement. And then the D-I players left, and despite the coach's formerly "successful" off-season program-demands, the team went 3-6, 4-5, 2-7 until he quit. Their program still hasn't recovered. Last season our JVs beat them 74-0 (61-0 at half largely due to four defensive TDs) and they dropped the team the next week. |
|
|
|
Post by bigm0073 on Feb 28, 2012 10:36:07 GMT -6
WOw over the top there...
Has to come from within too.. Players have to want it as much or more than the coaches. 5 days plus saturdays could be a bit much for some...
Our state has a dead period now and our players have been bugging me all week about working out and getting back to it...
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Feb 28, 2012 10:37:40 GMT -6
This is also why I prefer going one platoon.. Weed out the "baggage" and have kids who are ALL ABOUT IT! IMO you win with those kids... At least we have... Rather have 20 - 35 of those types on Friday nigh than an additional 20 - 30 kids you chase around school, campus and they never really do anything for you. And many of them of them are your back ups By having our players play both ways it creates a HIGHLY competative off season. Players know there are very, very limited amount of positions and only the strongest will get them. Our best players usually gobble up two or more... Players limited in physical ability have to out work, out hustle and really, really, really want it to play Friday Nights. The weaker kids that do not desire to workout with us usually fade away and go away... Kind of explains the Social Darwinism approach.... Not for everyone but our players really buy into it and like it. That pretty much sums it up. Our veteran Bigs (linemen, LBs, TEs, FBs) know that they'll need to be strong just to survive practice day to day. When we have a problem with a kid not wanting to work out it's usually a back or a WR. When we say that the best player plays, though, we mean the best FOOTBALL PLAYER, not best athlete. That may end up being the kid who doesn't show in the offseason but that's not a given. If so, well, more power to him. |
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Feb 28, 2012 10:41:22 GMT -6
As blb and fantom have pointed out, there is a point where Darwinism needs to kick in. A kid that busts his hump all off-season and still loses his spot to the sloth isn't exactly the pride of the herd.
I really hate to say that but it's the truth.
|
|
scuba16
Sophomore Member
Posts: 201
|
Post by scuba16 on Feb 28, 2012 10:52:01 GMT -6
We play the BEST football player regardless of how strong he is or isn't, how many workouts he made or missed... Last time I checked this isn't a weightlifting competition. I agree, working out CAN make players better.... but we have also had terrible players who worked out like crazy in the off season, got very strong and what we had the next yr were stronger, just as terrible as they were last yr kids. Some kids are just better than others. You can't start a kid just because he made every workout...... What if he sucks??
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 10:52:21 GMT -6
I think sometimes we overestimate the power of the "message being sent." To use the example above about a kid who shows up for everything and gets beat out by someone who showed up for two weeks, sure the kid who doesn't get his starting job will be upset, but kids want to win. The rest of the team will probably be happy the better football player is starting.
I've had something like this happen in almost every program I've been with where a kid with spotty summer attendance is still good enough to win a spot and it's never really been an issue in terms of team chemistry. To be fair, though, it takes a good athlete/player to do that. The reasons the attendance may have been "spotty" is because they may have focus on other sports or family reasons.
|
|
|
|
Post by blb on Feb 28, 2012 11:02:51 GMT -6
"Meritocracy" process does not work. You go ahead and choose your starters by how many off-season sessions they've attended. See how many games you win and how long you're allowed to keep coaching. Parents who have had those kids for 14-18 years can't get them to clean their rooms. Teachers can't get a lot of teenagers to turn in their homework in spite of grades, graduation requirements, etc.. You figure out how to get all your players to "buy in" and you'll make a fortune as a motivational speaker. A lot of our kids are very good about being at off-season work outs. Others, not so much. A few are our best athletes. Does it irk me? Sure. But to reiterate what fantom posted - don't worry about things you can't control. Just like when you start practice. You can't do anything about the kids who didn't come out, or the players your opponents have. Work with and coach the heck out of the ones that ARE there - quit worrying about the ones that aren't! |
|
|
|
Post by 42falcon on Feb 28, 2012 11:37:42 GMT -6
We play the BEST football player regardless of how strong he is or isn't, how many workouts he made or missed... Last time I checked this isn't a weightlifting competition. I agree, working out CAN make players better.... but we have also had terrible players who worked out like crazy in the off season, got very strong and what we had the next yr were stronger, just as terrible as they were last yr kids. Some kids are just better than others. You can't start a kid just because he made every workout...... What if he sucks?? Agreed... but you can start that kid on special teams. Let's be real that kid who trained his tail off knows he is not a super star but wants to play. We try to find a home for that kid and give him every chance VS the lazy kid who misses workouts. Weightroom increases the overall depth of your team by giving you more kids that can compete at a higher base level. You are always going to get the super star athlete they get better from working out. We have a few kids that are in this boat they play basketball, run track and play rugby they make 50% of the sessions and we are OK with that. It's the guy who is doing nothing that we want to root out. |
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Feb 28, 2012 11:38:08 GMT -6
We have tried a lot of things in my 30 years of coaching. At the present we use alot of peer and coach pressure for kids to attend workouts. I have a pre-season test that a minimal but somewhat challenging level score must be achieved to get on the field. They are still on the team but need to get that level. A next level must be achieved or they must do an extra hour session after each day of doubles (about 10 days). I also have a minimum number of summer workouts they must attend or it applies also. I justify it by saying it would be remiss of me to subject someone to the physicality of football without doing my best to make sure they are physically at a certain level. I also reward high scores with conditioning breaks, shirts, etc. After the 3rd game, all are eligible because they would have had 5 weeks of football practice and I "feel" they are ready. Seems to be decent at this time but I'm always open to new stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by mholst40 on Feb 28, 2012 11:46:54 GMT -6
Similar to nascaroffense, we have a point system. However, we use the points as a competition for incentives not as a make/cut tool. Got the idea from someone on here. Equipment, jersey numbers, front of food line passes, website recognition, t-shirts, No Conditioning passes, and other incentives are earned based upon the number of point accumulated. If we get new Speed Revo helmets, points earned determines who gets them. If you have a certain number you want, you better have the most points to guarantee that number. We incorporate all of this into our Power Squads, which are teams across all grade levels. Each Squad has a Senior (or upper class leader if not enough seniors) assigned as the captain, who will draft his squad based on accountability, not popularity. He wants the kids who will earn the most points. The Power Squad with the most points get various incentives: usually meals or extra gear like sweatshirts, jackets or the like. Plus, the highest point total Power Squad leader will get special recognition. This works better for our kids than punishment. Not the best for every situation but it works for us. AJ This is almost to a T what we do. We can't cut a kid for not being there in the off-season, but those incentives really push kids to compete for different goals in the off-season. We will start using "Accountability" Groups during the summer when we have access to all of our kids. Our leaders will draft teams and their summer attendance grade will be based on the percentage of their teammates who show up to each one of our summer practices. If these kids who bust their butts in the off-season get beat out during the season, like many have said before, we aren't going to be very good or we have a lazy, stud athlete on our hands. |
|
|
|
Post by coachjr on Feb 28, 2012 11:52:19 GMT -6
In starting this post, I would like to state we have never "cut" a kid for
not showing up in the winter. It just gets frustrating when a kid doesn't show and doesn't communicate. I appreciate your comments on this topic. A follow-up question - What do you do with the kid who doesn't show all winter and spring and then you have a kid show up at your end of the school year meeting wanting to play? And this kid was part of your program the previous year?
|
|
|
|
Post by bigm0073 on Feb 28, 2012 12:07:06 GMT -6
Is that kid really going to help you win a championship? I would not really chase or bother with that type of kid... you need a kid like that like you need a hole in your head.
If he is a senior and is getting in the way than cut him in August. Hopefully your seniors/leadership will get this guy in line...
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Feb 28, 2012 12:07:56 GMT -6
In starting this post, I would like to state we have never "cut" a kid for not showing up in the winter. It just gets frustrating when a kid doesn't show and doesn't communicate. I appreciate your comments on this topic. A follow-up question - What do you do with the kid who doesn't show all winter and spring and then you have a kid show up at your end of the school year meeting wanting to play? And this kid was part of your program the previous year? Where's he been? This isn't the first time you've talked to him since the end of last year, is it? |
|
|
|
Post by blb on Feb 28, 2012 12:16:52 GMT -6
What do you do with the kid who doesn't show all winter and spring and then you have a kid show up at your end of the school year meeting wanting to play? And this kid was part of your program the previous year? What do YOU do with him? You gonna tell him he can't play because Football isn't as important to him as it is to you? In my experience kid like that is a "Spring Football player" - thinks playing Football is a good idea in May but when Summer Conditioning or Two-a-days roll around, not such a hot idea. What do you have to lose? If he does make it through Summer or Two-a-days may be he'll be a player somehow, or at least contribute on Scout teams. If he doesn't no skin off your collective noses. Why do we get so bent out of shape about HS kids who only want to play HS Football during the HS season? They are TEENAGERS. They only breathe because it's an involuntary act. Some will figure out how to feed themselves. Most of them can't think past this afternoon. Again, these are not scholarship athletes and shouldn't be expected to behave like or be treated as such. |
|
|
|
Post by CoachHam55 on Feb 28, 2012 12:29:46 GMT -6
WOw over the top there... Has to come from within too.. Players have to want it as much or more than the coaches. 5 days plus saturdays could be a bit much for some... Our state has a dead period now and our players have been bugging me all week about working out and getting back to it. For us, as a result of a variety of factors (mostly very bad home life) we do not get kids that innately have that sense of drive and accountability. So we need to teach it to them. One of the ways that we do that is by using these incentives to keep them around long enough to see what the end result of the work is. We got quite a few kids into the weight room for the first time based on the stuff they can earn but those same kids began to see that they rose above their non-attending teammates as a result of the work being put in. Now, they still want the swag, as they call it, but the kids are buying into the idea that the off-season is where HUGE gains can be made. AJ |
|
