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Post by tog on Jun 10, 2007 19:44:59 GMT -6
whitemike - your first paragraph said it all. "I think as educators we should allow these kids to embrace their creativity, but teach them that the language of the streets is not the same language of the board/classroom." I don't know about embracing creativity ... but teaching them traits like hardwork, sacrifice, and teamwork - traits of the football field as well as the board room - are definitely our charge as educators. The rest of your educational summary is interesting... no, I guess it wasn't interesting. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) i have been to a lot of ruby payne stuff and it is wise
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herky
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Post by herky on Jun 10, 2007 19:47:06 GMT -6
oof... ;D
Very interesting thread....
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tedseay
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Post by tedseay on Jun 11, 2007 3:46:45 GMT -6
I am just saying.. without proper training these uneducated/unskilled kids will end up working at a job that they hate!! McDonalds.. I mean come on.. who wants to work for $5.25 an hour and have to deal with the public?? So.. they have this mentality that its just a job and they take no ownership of the job.. they do not care if Mr. McDonald is making money.. they do not care if Mr. Customer gets ticked because he ordered a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper.. they are there simply to make that little check each week.. and they know if some how or another they get booted, there is another dead end job just down the road.. If.. Mr. McDonald didnt have 100 people applying everyday to work for $5.25 an hour because they were not qualified to do any better.. then he would be forced to up the anty a bit.. But.. if these same people had a job say at a cabinet shop where they were a skilled laborer who made cabinets.. they were getting paid $10 an hour or more.. then they would value that job.. they would care more about not just being self serving.. they would be more willing to do what it took to keep that job.. this in turn creates a better business system for the owner.. and he in turn can afford to pay better wages.. its all a cycle.. No, actually it's political economy... basic political economy. There are, these days, a great many high school leavers (grads and dropouts) with no marketable skills to speak of. To blame this on the market is absurd -- the market merely reflects where the supply of workers with no skills meets the demand for unskilled work at any given point in time -- and that intersection is going to occur at a very low wage level. The cabinetmakers you mention, OTOH, are highly skilled. They required thousands of hours of expert training and experience, and someone had to pay for that. Combine this with the relatively limited demand for fine furniture compared to Big Macs, and you should understand why the cabinetmakers pull in much higher wages. So -- is this anyone's fault? Yes, I think: the educational system's (and I speak of a unitary system because of the ever-increasing federal centralization of curriculum and resource allocation) emphasis on turning out useful drones intead of educating American citizens, and all of the rest of us for allowing this to take place without effective complaint.
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Post by tiger46 on Jun 11, 2007 7:33:23 GMT -6
I did a little radio edit for you old guys out there. not just old but ones that really don't like spreading the hip hop culture any more than it already has been especially with words of that connotation I apologize in advance for this long post. I’m only a youth football coach. Most of my players were from poor households. And, all were minorities. I may be playing a bit of devil’s advocate here. But, here goes… Hip Hop did not create poverty and disenchantment with one’s place in society any more than Heavy Metal creates mass murderers or Country Music creates trailer parks. That cycle of poverty was, and is, well in place. Hip hop is about one thing- money; as is any other popular music. People are portraying themselves as brave crusaders against hip hop and its ‘culture’ as if that style of music is the source of all that is evil in urban society. Why? Hip hop is a multi-million dollar industry. If anything, seen through an economic point of view, kids should be encouraged to get into the hip hop business. They don’t need to be the people holding a mic. They can be the people that are the lawyers, producers, sound mixers, etc…of a relatively new industry that has generated wealth for over twenty years. And, there is a difference between wealth and rich. An inner-city child doesn’t need your boardroom if he can create his own. For example, what would you imagine a meeting between P-Diddy, Russell Simmons, and Timbaland (all successful hip hop producers) would sound like? I’d imagine there’s plenty of slang and improper English flying around in that business deal. Are they poor? Are they merely rich? Or, are they wealthy? It may not sound like Wall Street. But, you had better believe they’re discussing big business. As adults, I’d think that we are able to see through the façade of grandeur that today’s hip hop ‘artists’- and, I use that term loosely- promotes. In the words of the comedian Eddie Griffin, “Ain’t no real gangster ever won a grammy!” Kids may not be able to see through bs as well as we can. But, that’s what why we’re here. We’re the light in the fog, the voice of reason that says to a kid, “Hey do you really think Snoop Dog just finished ‘blasting a fool’ and then rushed back to his music studio to cut a CD, telling every cop in the world that he did it?” “And, if 50 Cent was so content to be such a successful gangbanger, and he had all those b*****s and ho’s, and blingbling out on the street, then why’d he decide to get into hiphop?” It’s because it’s all bs. There’s nothing glamorous about being a pimp, a drug dealer, or a hustler. “Besides that, who really wants a b**** or a ho? And, even if you persuaded that type of girl to be a notch on your belt of sexual conquests, how many other guys succeeded before you? What notch on their belts is she?” I generally don’t allow my kids to listen to hip hop. I treated my players the same, as my wife’s mini-van doubles as the team bus. But, I faced its content head-on first. I’ve dissected songs that they were listening to on the radio or, a friend’s house. I went over why the ‘artist’ is a liar and a fraud and that the subject matter in the song was idiotic. Again, I’m only a youth coach. I’d imaging getting through to teenaged boys is harder. But, waiting until they’re teenagers to talk to them about these things may be waiting until it’s too late.
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Post by tog on Jun 11, 2007 20:31:29 GMT -6
not just old but ones that really don't like spreading the hip hop culture any more than it already has been especially with words of that connotation I apologize in advance for this long post. I’m only a youth football coach. Most of my players were from poor households. And, all were minorities. I may be playing a bit of devil’s advocate here. But, here goes… Hip Hop did not create poverty and disenchantment with one’s place in society any more than Heavy Metal creates mass murderers or Country Music creates trailer parks. That cycle of poverty was, and is, well in place. Hip hop is about one thing- money; as is any other popular music. People are portraying themselves as brave crusaders against hip hop and its ‘culture’ as if that style of music is the source of all that is evil in urban society. Why? Hip hop is a multi-million dollar industry. If anything, seen through an economic point of view, kids should be encouraged to get into the hip hop business. They don’t need to be the people holding a mic. They can be the people that are the lawyers, producers, sound mixers, etc…of a relatively new industry that has generated wealth for over twenty years. And, there is a difference between wealth and rich. An inner-city child doesn’t need your boardroom if he can create his own. For example, what would you imagine a meeting between P-Diddy, Russell Simmons, and Timbaland (all successful hip hop producers) would sound like? I’d imagine there’s plenty of slang and improper English flying around in that business deal. Are they poor? Are they merely rich? Or, are they wealthy? It may not sound like Wall Street. But, you had better believe they’re discussing big business. As adults, I’d think that we are able to see through the façade of grandeur that today’s hip hop ‘artists’- and, I use that term loosely- promotes. In the words of the comedian Eddie Griffin, “Ain’t no real gangster ever won a grammy!” Kids may not be able to see through bs as well as we can. But, that’s what why we’re here. We’re the light in the fog, the voice of reason that says to a kid, “Hey do you really think Snoop Dog just finished ‘blasting a fool’ and then rushed back to his music studio to cut a CD, telling every cop in the world that he did it?” “And, if 50 Cent was so content to be such a successful gangbanger, and he had all those b*****s and ho’s, and blingbling out on the street, then why’d he decide to get into hiphop?” It’s because it’s all bs. There’s nothing glamorous about being a pimp, a drug dealer, or a hustler. “Besides that, who really wants a b**** or a ho? And, even if you persuaded that type of girl to be a notch on your belt of sexual conquests, how many other guys succeeded before you? What notch on their belts is she?” I generally don’t allow my kids to listen to hip hop. I treated my players the same, as my wife’s mini-van doubles as the team bus. But, I faced its content head-on first. I’ve dissected songs that they were listening to on the radio or, a friend’s house. I went over why the ‘artist’ is a liar and a fraud and that the subject matter in the song was idiotic. Again, I’m only a youth coach. I’d imaging getting through to teenaged boys is harder. But, waiting until they’re teenagers to talk to them about these things may be waiting until it’s too late. very good and solid points i agree with everything you say i guess i am just fighting the battle in every little way i can to help out the kids i have succeed
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Post by tog on Jun 11, 2007 20:33:39 GMT -6
you know one thing along with this
and using the metal analogy is a good one
i love metal and i love some limited rap
the kids that buy into either lifestyle though need to be told about the very things you mention
that it IS just entertainment
falling into the drugs and crime that worlds that both types of music play up is a trap that many of our youngsters fall into
helping them realize what you are talking about is a big thing
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Post by tiger46 on Jun 11, 2007 23:31:28 GMT -6
Tog, I'm with you on that. I wasn't trying to single anyone out, either. I only quoted your original post is because that's where it seemed the thread changed directions. Honestly, I can appreciate direction the thread went. Sometimes I just have the urge to smack some of these older kids around and scream at them, "What in the hell is wrong with you?!" One other thing, though; it doesn't seem that any ire is ever directed at FUBU, Nike, Levi's or any other cottage industries that rap music has boosted. Companies such as those have made millions upon millions marketing goods aimed at the gangsta rap culture. Don't get me wrong, I consider them to be making an honest dollar feeding off of an entertainment industry. I'm not blaming them for anything. But, for those that do, I don't see why Snoop Dogg is more vilified than someone like the owner of FUBU, J. Alexander Martin. I've actually had some pretty funny moments setting the kids straight about 'gangsta rap'. I found that I didn't always have to be so serious. I just had to continue to guide them to make better choices.
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Post by tog on Jun 12, 2007 0:09:33 GMT -6
Tog, I found that I didn't always have to be so serious. I just had to continue to guide them to make better choices. i agree it isn't that the music itself is so bad just that know when things are appropriate
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 12, 2007 9:25:17 GMT -6
Again...to play devils advocate...what is "appropriate"
This term has been used by many throughout this thread. So, where do we derive this completely subjective concept?
Is appropriate the societal norms founded by white America? Someone brought a great point about the differences between a business meeting between say Bill Gates and Steve jobs...and maybe Wellington Mara and Warren Buffet, and Sean Combs and Quincy Jones.
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Post by CVBears on Jun 12, 2007 9:27:44 GMT -6
whitemike - your first paragraph said it all. "I think as educators we should allow these kids to embrace their creativity, but teach them that the language of the streets is not the same language of the board/classroom." I don't know about embracing creativity ... but teaching them traits like hardwork, sacrifice, and teamwork - traits of the football field as well as the board room - are definitely our charge as educators. The rest of your educational summary is interesting... no, I guess it wasn't interesting. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) i have been to a lot of ruby payne stuff and it is wise And I thought my district was the only one that went through Ruby Payne's stuff. There are lots of useful things for teaching and coaching (if there is a distinction) in her book A Framework for Understanding Poverty. Even coaches that coach/teach in purely upper socioeconomic schools could use a few things from that book/training
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Post by airraider on Jun 12, 2007 10:05:29 GMT -6
Yea.. and the kid has pretty good grades too..
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