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Post by letthecoachescoach on Nov 29, 2011 16:10:19 GMT -6
Coaches,
I would imagine many, if not most, of you are familiar with Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". In it, he makes an argument for weakening your opponent before you actually face him.
As coaches, where do you fall with this philosophically? I know some people like a good challenge and see any type of maneuvering as cheapening the victory ("Samurai mindset"), while others will take a victory any way they can get it ("Ninja mindset").
Hayden Fry had the opponent's locker room painted pink to try to mess with the mind of the opposing team before the game; Fry said he knew he had the opponent beat when their head coach made a comment about the locker room in the pregame...Is this ethical, or is it cheap to you?
What if a coach were to find out that the opposing team's quarterback was scared of snakes and as such had pictures of snakes posted all throughout the opposing team's locker room and in the tunnel leading to the field to try to make him anxious before the game? Is that going too far?
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Post by fantom on Nov 29, 2011 16:13:30 GMT -6
Coaches, I would imagine many, if not most, of you are familiar with Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". In it, he makes an argument for weakening your opponent before you actually face him. As coaches, where do you fall with this philosophically? I know some people like a good challenge and see any type of maneuvering as cheapening the victory ("Samurai mindset"), while others will take a victory any way they can get it ("Ninja mindset"). Hayden Fry had the opponent's locker room painted pink to try to mess with the mind of the opposing team before the game; Fry said he knew he had the opponent beat when their head coach made a comment about the locker room in the pregame...Is this ethical, or is it cheap to you? What if a coach were to find out that the opposing team's quarterback was scared of snakes and as such had pictures of snakes posted all throughout the opposing team's locker room and in the tunnel leading to the field to try to make him anxious before the game? Is that going too far? I'd rather find out that he's scared of blitzes.
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Post by kcbazooka on Nov 29, 2011 16:23:54 GMT -6
heck, why not just hand him a snake at the coin toss - that ought to shake him up for a series... And I don't know about the pink thing -- We had our cancer awareness night game and I bought the kids pink mouthpieces from the cancer society and let them wear pink other stuff if they had them for that night -- did they have them? we look like a bunch of flamingos out there - socks, gloves, wrist bands, skull caps - definately not afraid to show our feminine side. not sure we'll go all the way pink next year...
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 29, 2011 16:24:48 GMT -6
I really don't think any of this would effect the play on the field but that's just my opinion.
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Post by letthecoachescoach on Nov 29, 2011 16:33:06 GMT -6
I'd rather find out that he's scared of blitzes. Lol, of course that too And as far as the color psychology thing goes with what the other coaches said, color has been proven to have a subconscious effect with people. The reason fry used it was that pink has shown to have a calming effect on people, so he was trying to bring their arousal level too low before kickoff. On the other hand, there were also players that were angered by all the pink around them, and that too served to take their mind off what mattered-the approaching game.
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Post by calkayne on Nov 29, 2011 17:04:39 GMT -6
The Samurai mindset is doomed to fail in the long run, just as it did in Japan. The code though virtuous is self destructive as it does not evolve. Take an example from Boise State, thats the best out maneuvering example, did they not have a winning streak at home that extended back to 2000 or so? Just because of blue grass, I doubt it, did it help, I am sure it did. If I could afford it, I reckon I would
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Post by coachkylemlinek2 on Nov 29, 2011 18:31:19 GMT -6
Coaches, I would imagine many, if not most, of you are familiar with Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". In it, he makes an argument for weakening your opponent before you actually face him. As coaches, where do you fall with this philosophically? I know some people like a good challenge and see any type of maneuvering as cheapening the victory ("Samurai mindset"), while others will take a victory any way they can get it ("Ninja mindset"). Hayden Fry had the opponent's locker room painted pink to try to mess with the mind of the opposing team before the game; Fry said he knew he had the opponent beat when their head coach made a comment about the locker room in the pregame...Is this ethical, or is it cheap to you? What if a coach were to find out that the opposing team's quarterback was scared of snakes and as such had pictures of snakes posted all throughout the opposing team's locker room and in the tunnel leading to the field to try to make him anxious before the game? Is that going too far? Of course it's not too far. I'll take it anyway I can get it. I'm a ninja, baby. I've walked up to the other team's coaches and players and began to talk about how cold it was to throw their players off. I always make sure those pre-game stretches are loud and vicious sounding. We want to intimidate. It's all part of the game. I remember a story from the history channel. Genghis Khan told all of his men to light 5 fires at their camp ground instead of just one. So when the enemy scout came and looked at their camp ground the scout reported his army was about 100,000 men strong. The enemy was so scared they gave up without a fight. However, In Sun Tzu's book, I think he talks about winning the battle before it happens by being prepared and knowing your enemy - not with psychological warfare.
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Post by tothehouse on Nov 29, 2011 18:36:03 GMT -6
How about just having a long tradition of winning and opponents looking at their schedule knowing it's most likely a certain loss? A tradition of beat downs can make opponents weary.
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Post by fantom on Nov 29, 2011 18:56:51 GMT -6
Coaches, I would imagine many, if not most, of you are familiar with Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". In it, he makes an argument for weakening your opponent before you actually face him. As coaches, where do you fall with this philosophically? I know some people like a good challenge and see any type of maneuvering as cheapening the victory ("Samurai mindset"), while others will take a victory any way they can get it ("Ninja mindset"). Hayden Fry had the opponent's locker room painted pink to try to mess with the mind of the opposing team before the game; Fry said he knew he had the opponent beat when their head coach made a comment about the locker room in the pregame...Is this ethical, or is it cheap to you? What if a coach were to find out that the opposing team's quarterback was scared of snakes and as such had pictures of snakes posted all throughout the opposing team's locker room and in the tunnel leading to the field to try to make him anxious before the game? Is that going too far? Of course it's not too far. I'll take it anyway I can get it. I'm a ninja, baby. I've walked up to the other team's coaches and players and began to talk about how cold it was to throw their players off. I always make sure those pre-game stretches are loud and vicious sounding. We want to intimidate. It's all part of the game. I remember a story from the history channel. Genghis Khan told all of his men to light 5 fires at their camp ground instead of just one. So when the enemy scout came and looked at their camp ground the scout reported his army was about 100,000 men strong. The enemy was so scared they gave up without a fight. However, In Sun Tzu's book, I think he talks about winning the battle before it happens by being prepared and knowing your enemy - not with psychological warfare. "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril."
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 29, 2011 20:40:35 GMT -6
How about just having a long tradition of winning and opponents looking at their schedule knowing it's most likely a certain loss? A tradition of beat downs can make opponents weary. True that. I have The Art of War, and I agree that I think he is referring to scouting your enemy and knowing how to put your strength against their weakness. As for the pink thing. We upset the #1 team in the state this past season on our pink-out night. There was as much pink in the stands and on the field as their was regular school colors LOL. That other stuff is all gamesmanship. I have no problem with it. I once had this goofy old coach refer to me by the name of a coach from another conference team. He did it, I corrected him, and then he did it again. At that point I knew what he was up to. Didn't really phase me. I think bringing a live snake on the field is messed up though. But when would something like that go too far? My freshmen year in hoops the home crowd chanted "daddy-daddy" & "Who's your daddy" every time our PG touched the ball because they found out he knocked up his girlfriend.
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Post by coachfd on Nov 29, 2011 21:28:13 GMT -6
I think there's always a "classy way" to do things, however that often varies based on individual people's opinions. I personally believe in the philosophy of: "If you have to think about whether or not it's okay... then it probably isn't."
If you have to think about whether or not something is right... then it probably isn't. If you have to think about whether or not something is a good idea... then it probably isn't. If you have to think about whether or not you should say something questionable... then you probably shouldn't. If you have to think about whether or not you should do something questionable... then you probably shouldn't.
When in doubt... err on the side of what's classy.
"The goal is to win the game--fairly, squarely, and by the rules..." - Vince Lombardi
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Post by coachfd on Nov 29, 2011 21:29:10 GMT -6
I think there's always a "classy way" to do things, however that often varies based on individual people's opinions. I personally believe in the philosophy of: "If you have to think about whether or not it's okay... then it probably isn't."
If you have to think about whether or not something is right... then it probably isn't. If you have to think about whether or not something is a good idea... then it probably isn't. If you have to think about whether or not you should say something questionable... then you probably shouldn't. If you have to think about whether or not you should do something questionable... then you probably shouldn't.
When in doubt... err on the side of what's classy.
"The goal is to win the game--fairly, squarely, and by the rules..." - Vince Lombardi
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Post by downdownkick on Nov 29, 2011 21:30:28 GMT -6
Not to go off topic, but
Samurai=Japanese Sun Tzu=Chinese
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Post by letthecoachescoach on Nov 30, 2011 0:22:05 GMT -6
Not to go off topic, but Samurai=Japanese Sun Tzu=Chinese Yes you are most certainly correct, but I never directly linked those two. I used Sun Tzu on his own (and as other coaches have pointed out, I took some liberty in interpreting the text). I then contrasted the Samurai and the Ninja (both Japanese) as two conflicting philosophies and ways of life. The samurai believed in honorable, "classy" warfare; generally, they would never attack an undefended opponent. They believed in fighting directly. The Ninja in contrast believed in extensive use of deception, spying, misdirection, "dirty tricks", etc; they would take a victory anyway they could get it, even if it meant attacking an undefended opponent. Relatively speaking, the Ninja did not believe in honor, valor, etc. I never mixed Sun Tzu and the Samurai...
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 30, 2011 4:31:18 GMT -6
Just to be clear........ Chuck Norris is both Ninja and Samurai and has defeated both while reading The Art of War. Sorry....my immaturity took hold for a moment.
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Post by coachcb on Nov 30, 2011 8:25:25 GMT -6
I agree with dcohio; intentionally screwing with a team before a game is petty. You want to have a team beat before they walk on the field; wreck house every year and carry a big stick.
Honestly, the first couple hits of a football game go a long way towards swinging momentum.. You're squad can lose a game within the first few downs, easily. It happened to us against the state champs this year. They got the ball to start the game and we limited their return. They came out and ran IZ on the first play and picked up 5 yards on it. Not a big deal, right? It was to our guys, they shut down completely. They came to the sideline after forcing a 3 and out on that drive complaining about "how hard those guys hit"..
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 30, 2011 10:29:19 GMT -6
was this one of those suggestions that you made to your staff?
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Post by coachcb on Nov 30, 2011 10:58:08 GMT -6
was this one of those suggestions that you made to your staff? Who are you responding to, coach?
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Post by coachbuck on Nov 30, 2011 14:59:18 GMT -6
Dcohio, I agree 100%. I will stoop to send a message and I don't care what other coaches think. I have two teams in mind as I type this. As far as intimidation before a game, maybe suttle things but nothing like snakes or hot water. That is over the top.
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Post by letthecoachescoach on Nov 30, 2011 15:41:36 GMT -6
Personally I think that is classless to the game to do something of a physical nature like paint the locker room, no hot water, crappy locker room. The snake thing...dude, I don't even have words...that would be so immature and unprofessional that all I can tell you is you better be better cause if you're not and your ploy doesn't work...it will be as dominat of a win in every phase as we can make it. #1 - their team is a group of kids too, what are you teaching their kids by doing something like that? What if the QB's dad is locked up, would you post his dad's mugshot in the locker room? #2 - this is football. Even the great will have their down years. I dare you to do something petty. Eventually that tide will turn and I will be carrying the bigger sword and when that time comes do not complain when I swing it without mercy. Some may think that's stooping to their level...yea, so what, I don't care, if I'm stooping I can always stand back up. I'm easily motivated and not afraid to stoop. I agree with you. Posting the picture of the QB's Dad would be so messed up. I have never used the snake, I was just throwing that out there along with the Pink Locker Room idea utilized by Hayden Fry. Just wanted to see what people's thoughts are on this philosophical issue. I hear you on piling it on, I dish it out when I can, but I also deal with it when it comes my way. It drives me nuts when people get mad about teams "running the score up".
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Post by coachfd on Nov 30, 2011 19:27:58 GMT -6
Sometimes we have to remember that... "We're the adults here." We should act like it. Even if we don't always want to.
As far as running up the score goes... I know it's the other team's job to stop you; and it's your to stop them (when they're the one's doing the scoring,)... but I also think it's important to remember what we're doing, and the example that we're setting.
First off: When you run up the score, you are humiliating the other team's kids. I don't care if you're trying to win some ego-battle or avenge some personal grudge with an opposing coach; what you're really doing in the process is humiliating those kids. And that should be the exact OPPOSITE reason of why you got into coaching in the first place.
Second: When you rub it in, you're acting like a child, and you're showing your true lack of character. Aren't we trying to teach character? Aren't we trying to teach our kids how to win with class, lose with grace, and carry themselves in a respectable way? What kind of example does it set when you run up the score---some 50-something year old man "rubbing it in" on some other adult male that he's got a grudge with? Who is acting like the child in that case...?
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 30, 2011 19:50:02 GMT -6
Coaches, I would imagine many, if not most, of you are familiar with Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". In it, he makes an argument for weakening your opponent before you actually face him. As coaches, where do you fall with this philosophically? I know some people like a good challenge and see any type of maneuvering as cheapening the victory ("Samurai mindset"), while others will take a victory any way they can get it ("Ninja mindset"). Hayden Fry had the opponent's locker room painted pink to try to mess with the mind of the opposing team before the game; Fry said he knew he had the opponent beat when their head coach made a comment about the locker room in the pregame...Is this ethical, or is it cheap to you? What if a coach were to find out that the opposing team's quarterback was scared of snakes and as such had pictures of snakes posted all throughout the opposing team's locker room and in the tunnel leading to the field to try to make him anxious before the game? Is that going too far? Of course it's not too far. I'll take it anyway I can get it. I'm a ninja, baby. I've walked up to the other team's coaches and players and began to talk about how cold it was to throw their players off. I always make sure those pre-game stretches are loud and vicious sounding. We want to intimidate. It's all part of the game. I remember a story from the history channel. Genghis Khan told all of his men to light 5 fires at their camp ground instead of just one. So when the enemy scout came and looked at their camp ground the scout reported his army was about 100,000 men strong. The enemy was so scared they gave up without a fight. However, In Sun Tzu's book, I think he talks about winning the battle before it happens by being prepared and knowing your enemy - not with psychological warfare. I personally don't like my team being all rah rah loud in pregame. It's a waste of energy. At the high school level and higher the volume of pregame has no effect on the outcome of the game. You know what a real intimidating pregame sounds like? Dead silient through stretching and agilities.
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Post by Wingtman on Dec 1, 2011 0:42:28 GMT -6
I think reputation works best. For example, teams who play us know we are going to ground and pound you for 48 minutes, and hit you as hard as we can within the confine or the rules.
That in itself works against a few teams.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 1, 2011 9:25:32 GMT -6
This thread has really turned into a sh-t show.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2011 9:35:45 GMT -6
We have a wall that all the "injured" kids sit on at practice. We painted it pink one year and the number of injuries significantly declined. Then administration caught wind and eliminated our fun pretty quickly. Now there's a pow wow on the wall everyday.
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Post by airraider on Dec 1, 2011 10:49:51 GMT -6
I heard some terrible stories of coaches doing things.. pouring sugar on the visitor's sidelines to attack ants... putting coolers in their lockerroom fulls of cokes and snack cakes knowing they would eat them... Not sure if either are true..
I also know Evangel used to have the visiting team dress in the weightroom and had tons of leader boards and record boards with pictures... nothing is more mind blowing for a kid to walk in and see where the kid they will be blocking all night leads their team with a 350lb power clean.
Also in terms of the pregame hype tactic... Ive never won a pregame...
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Post by coachbrek on Dec 2, 2011 12:57:51 GMT -6
Many years back I was at a Div II national playoff game North Dakota State was hosting Central State of Ohio.
It was about this time of the year and it was cold, about 20 below zero, All the Central State players were huddled around some sideline heaters before the game, NDSU's offensive linemen came out of the locker room carrying their shoulder pads and were just wearing t-shirts they intentionally walked in front of Central states bench and put on their gear.
The game was over before it started, it was a great intimidation ploy that worked wonders. Both teams had to play in the same elements but Central State was paralyzed with fear and cold.
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Post by kcbazooka on Dec 2, 2011 13:32:06 GMT -6
at the first school i coached at the coach had his two best kids carry in an extra bench into where the visitors were dressing before each home game. These two kids were specimens - both state wrestling champs one was a 280 the other 215 - interesting that two freshmen weren't given this job -- gaurantee he wanted to remind the opponents remembered who they were facing.
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Post by Coach Goodnight on Dec 11, 2011 22:20:22 GMT -6
Also in terms of the pregame hype tactic... Ive never won a pregame... Like this so much that it is now part of my signature line. I wonder how many coaches have won a pregame? lol!!!!
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bighit65
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Make a statement without saying a word.
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Post by bighit65 on Dec 14, 2011 8:56:00 GMT -6
I've never seen pre-game hype win a game either. But I have seen it focus a group before a game.
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