|
|
Post by coachnichols on Apr 5, 2007 6:51:22 GMT -6
Scenario...
You're the offensive coordinator vs. 3-5. You realize the defense is in man coverage with 8 in the box to stop your run game.
What are your answers to this?
After you tell me you're going to pass, my next question is let's say the CB's are good and practically take away your #1's...now what?
|
|
|
|
Post by superpower on Apr 5, 2007 7:13:21 GMT -6
I think it depends greatly on your offensive system. Eight in the box isn't a problem for some running offenses.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachnichols on Apr 5, 2007 7:16:11 GMT -6
True. Okay, two more questions...
1. Suppose you (the O Coordinator) are VERY sure of your Tailback. Keep running? To hell with 8 in the box?
2. We shut your running game down. I win if that happens, but I want to know what's going on in your mind. What's your answer to no run game, 8 in the box?
|
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Apr 5, 2007 7:16:27 GMT -6
DON'T BE SCARED OF 0 COVERAGE - EMBRACE IT
ALTER YOUR CADENCE!
OPTION!
GO DEEP SHOTGUN (7yds)
BOOTLEGS
GO EMPTY (declares blitzers) - THROW HOTS
MAX PROTECT
SCREENS (backs showing protection, then releasing - you have no answer for that in 0 coverage)
WORK YOUR QUICK GAME
You'll likely only put 8 in the box so long as I have two-backs - the minute I go one-back NOW the defense has to loosen up.
|
|
|
|
Post by superpower on Apr 5, 2007 7:18:23 GMT -6
True. Suppose you (the O Coordinator) are VERY sure of your Tailback. Keep running? To hell with 8 in the box? As long as we are moving the ball and getting first downs, I would keep running it. Nothing is more frustrating to a defense that is stacked in the box to stop the run than to have the offense keep running it and moving down the field. |
|
|
|
Post by lochness on Apr 5, 2007 7:30:19 GMT -6
Playaction pass with waggles and crossing routes. Move the QB out of the pocket, and let those long developing crossing routes to the #2 receivers run away from the underneath coverage and get open.
Use some shifting and motion to confuse the man assignments and perhaps get them outflanked so you can run again.
Simple stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by realdawg on Apr 5, 2007 7:33:31 GMT -6
Depends on what kind of scheme I have. If you are a 4 and 5 wide team, you arent going to see 8 in the box, so you dont have to worry about it. If you are a power running team its different. I like putting TE's in the ball game against the 3-5. Run power, and counter trey. Go TE/Wing on one side and see what that gives you. Thats what I'd do.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachjoe on Apr 5, 2007 7:52:18 GMT -6
If you still want to run it because you have an advantage personel wise, then go 2 backs and 2 TE's.
|
|
kc361
Freshmen Member
Posts: 90
|
Post by kc361 on Apr 5, 2007 8:10:32 GMT -6
Coach,
Just a thought...
(1) Option Runs
(2) Bunch with picks/rubs
(3) Crossing routes
(4) Option Routes
kc
|
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Apr 5, 2007 8:37:24 GMT -6
Run some end over Shotgun Jet.
|
|
|
|
Post by jackedup on Apr 5, 2007 8:44:35 GMT -6
I'm with you KC... Bunch is the answer for me. The picks and rubs should take care of the man coverage. Use motion to match up your best reciever to their worst CB. Find the worst coverage player and get your best on him... then give them choice routes.
With 8 in the box, they can't just be sitting there if you're in man. Go 4/5 wide and screen them, jet them to go zone. Playaction everything!!
Just my $.02
|
|
|
|
Post by coachnichols on Apr 5, 2007 9:30:46 GMT -6
True. Suppose you (the O Coordinator) are VERY sure of your Tailback. Keep running? To hell with 8 in the box? As long as we are moving the ball and getting first downs, I would keep running it. Nothing is more frustrating to a defense that is stacked in the box to stop the run than to have the offense keep running it and moving down the field. Assume for a moment the TB is that good--people put 8 in the box and he's still breaking it. When we stop him, what's the Offense going to do, other than pee down their leg because the workhorse is done? Anyone ever use a LB to spy a player? I've heard of people spying a mobile QB with a LB in the 4-3. Any thoughts on that? |
|
|
|
Post by tog on Apr 5, 2007 9:34:27 GMT -6
this means option to me
it would mean balanced run pass to keep you from doing that, but i might not have a qb that can really do much, and I might not have wr's that can do a whole lot either
i CAN find at least one good kid to be an option qb though
|
|
|
|
Post by superpower on Apr 5, 2007 9:36:11 GMT -6
As long as we are moving the ball and getting first downs, I would keep running it. Nothing is more frustrating to a defense that is stacked in the box to stop the run than to have the offense keep running it and moving down the field. Assume for a moment the TB is that good--people put 8 in the box and he's still breaking it. When we stop him, what's the Offense going to do, other than pee down their leg because the workhorse is done? Anyone ever use a LB to spy a player? I've heard of people spying a mobile QB with a LB in the 4-3. Any thoughts on that? Against teams that are that one-dimensional, I have used our FS (in a 4-4) to spy either a good running QB or a very good RB. |
|
|
|
Post by lsrood on Apr 5, 2007 9:39:42 GMT -6
I agree with Brophy: Option, change things up with cadence, formations and play calls. You dictate to them, don't let them dictate to you. If you spread the field and still leave 8 in the box then pick them apart with bubbles, stays or combo/pick routes that should have a receiver running free.. If they spread out with you, even if their CB's are of the shutdown variety, you should still have great matchups on their Spur or Bandit Backers with your FL & TB. Take advantage of the mismatches. Once you spread them out then Zone or Trap them inside.
|
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Apr 5, 2007 9:45:58 GMT -6
-----------------------------------F--------------------------------------
---C----------------------------------------------------------------C----
---------------Rv------W-------M--------S-----$---------------------
-----------------------E-------N--------T------------------------------
--X---------------------O--O--[-]--O--O----Y-------------------------
-------------------------------Q--------------------------------Z------
-------------------------------F----------------------------------------
-------------------------------A-------------------------------- If you are in man coverage..... .(and you can eliminate my #1 receivers) ......then we just run you off with alignment and go 6 on 6 (use the QB) in the run game (option/follow/trap)
-----------------------------------F--------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------Rv--------W---------M--------S------------$---------------
-----------------------E-------N--------T------------------------------
-----------------------O--O--[-]--O--O--------------Y---------------
------------------------------Q--------------------------------------
----------F------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------A--------------------------------
OR just ZONE this all and not even block the backside END (contain player now that you're in man-coverage) and kill you with playside double teams or QB boot keepers) OR go Doubles........run DRAW (a good back will kill you here) or formation the Ace back out of the box and run jet sweep with him. OR run a real simple DART read package (nearly the same logic as zoning) out of gun. Keep in mind, that I now have the threat of FOUR VERTICALS.....the 'easy throw' becomes the guy that the FS doesn't take (so now, in doubles, I may force you into an even coverage / 2 deep look ....removing a player from the box) Personally, I really don't believe in beating a defense with a buttload of plays.....just stressing the fronts by forcing you to change coverage to adapt to the formations we throw at you. You are not going to get folks out of 8-9 man fronts by remaining in 2+ backfields. You're also not going to get folks out of 8-9 man fronts UNTIL YOU BEAT THEM IN IT (make them pay for it) When you are playing with the "big-dogs" you can't be a one-trick pony - you HAVE to be multiple and have some alternatives when people look to take your bread-and-butter away from you Assume for a moment the TB is that good--people put 8 in the box and he's still breaking it. You've got to ask....HOW? WHO is screwing up the gap-integrity (or missing tackles) to let this guy breeze through the defense / run support?[/font][/size] |
|
|
|
Post by touchdowng on Apr 5, 2007 10:39:12 GMT -6
I agree with Coachjoe
3-5 teams want to attack and get those negative plays. If you go 2TE 2RB and methodically just run the ball at them (assuming you can get 4+ per play), the defense will have to make adjustments and now they play into your hands.
This is a very complex question that is posed because we can't discuss all of the potential variables or "what ifs"
I've always believed that if you can plus 1 the defense and introduce one more gap than they can defend, you will have a theoretical advantage. 2 TEs' = 8 gaps (a,b,c,d) 2 RB = an extra gap wherever the fullback inserts = the 9th gap.
Much depends on your players but from a soundness standpoint, I like what Coachjoe says.
|
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Apr 5, 2007 10:45:54 GMT -6
it all boils down to WHO HOLDS THE CHALK LAST
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Apr 5, 2007 11:42:02 GMT -6
bootleg qb runs are a killer against teams that load the box and pile on a talented tb while in man coverage...run the defenders off, fake a power, boot opposite, if the qb can break contain its a nice way to keep the ball and move the chains.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Apr 5, 2007 11:54:21 GMT -6
Spread them out and run to the perimeter. Run the flat defenders off.
|
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on Apr 5, 2007 12:02:51 GMT -6
This is a general answer, but get into trips, most stack teams don't want to get out of stack, and almost have to vs. trips. Then we get better numbers to run inside. Overshift= speed option weak...
|
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Apr 5, 2007 12:59:24 GMT -6
there is also the popular scheme of  Where you keep doing what you're doing no matter if the odds are stacked against you or not. |
|
|
|
Post by dacoachmo on Apr 5, 2007 15:00:08 GMT -6
1) put your best WR in a formation where a CB isn't covering him...
2) Empty Set with a TE
3) WIDE ALIGNMENT. outside WR 2 yards from the sidelines. they just fade up the sideline. hit the inside WR with option/scat routes
|
|
|
|
Post by jraybern on Apr 5, 2007 16:06:47 GMT -6
If you can get them to go cover 3, I have a great play that will kill them. Otherwise, I have always been amazed by the possibilities out of a bunch.....
|
|
|
|
Post by gregodagr8 on Apr 5, 2007 19:55:52 GMT -6
If your asking this question you've never been a coordinator....
I agree with the ABOVE.....
WHOEVER HOLDS THE CHALK LAST WINS!
There is no magical answer, every team especially in high school has about 3 bread n butter plays that they are good at and if a team shuts those down it could be a long night!
|
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Apr 6, 2007 2:05:48 GMT -6
I would run a playaction pass, with my TE running a corner to take their safety away, hit the split end on a slant or down and in to take the CB away and put the FB into the flats after throwing a good whiff block on the OLB, dump it off and take it to the house. Hit the TE if they saftey doesn't follow him.
|
|
|
|
Post by hawkfan on Apr 6, 2007 7:46:51 GMT -6
I'm going 3 or 4 wide and going to try and bubble/rocket screen the defense to death.
This has already been said, but I'd run some bootlegs, making the TE the pass option on a drag. Or you could run zone and even the odds a little bit by not blocking the backside end.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachnichols on Apr 6, 2007 12:20:13 GMT -6
If your asking this question you've never been a coordinator.... I agree with the ABOVE..... WHOEVER HOLDS THE CHALK LAST WINS! There is no magical answer, every team especially in high school has about 3 bread n butter plays that they are good at and if a team shuts those down it could be a long night! If I'm asking the question, then...what an {censored} you sound like! I asked a simple {censored} question, expecting people to give information based on their experience. "WHOEVER HOLDS THE CHALK LAST WINS!" WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO BE IN RELATION TO THIS POST? Of course there's no magical answer! Jesus!!!! I'll be facing a team with a great TB who will run the {censored} out of the ball. I wanted to ask some Offensive Cooridnators what they would do vs. man coverage, the box stacked. What routes they might run, what their first answer would be, what they generally would try. You know, asking other people what they think they might do, so I and other people might get a better idea of what others think! WOW!!!! Trying to see how they might attack it. Please don't come on here being an {censored} to people asking questions. And don't come back and say, "I didn't mean it like that" There's no other way to mean that. It's you being condescending to people who you feel are beneath you in some way. I know what I would do, but I've never been an Offensive Coordinator. So, that's why I asked. I know a lot of know-it-all's who would tell me, "I'm going to keep running it until they stop me" blah, blah, blah. Like I said, I was hoping for some specific routes or formations that might be used. I know spreading out the defense is a solution, and I think everyone expected that one. Yeah, Trips is a great idea! Not everyone coaching high school football is a genius. The team I am preparing for (under a different coach) lined up the I formation all year regardless of the front. Just kept pounding it because of the back. I am assuming the new coach will try a little something different, but will stick to what he knows when it comes down to it. Also, my original intention was to find out what an O-Coordinator would do to exploit man coverage. What I mean is, I don't think the great TB will be shut down, but what would you try if the box is stacked with 8 and it makes more sense to pass, rather than run. The run will always be there versus some catdaddies! Sorry to everyone else on here. It's just {censored} to here other coaches talk to people like they are genius or think little of questions. I have yet to meet a genius in football. Anyone who thinks so, is probably an {censored}. Most good coaches seem to be down to earth and know they don't know {censored}! You're always learning. I know I have a ton of football a head of me and that's why I ask questions. I apologize (really) to anyone my anger offended, and I sincerely apologize (sarcasm) to anyone my anger offended. |
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Apr 6, 2007 12:43:44 GMT -6
Now I dont know the intentions of the response above, but I will say that my first impression of your post was "here we go, another gung ho nut".. In meaning, that you see a lot of white board heros on here who think they can stop anything or burn anything anyone else draws up.
But here is the plain and simple truth. I can draw up 100 plays that "should" score against any defense you draw up. We have every player accounted for.. we have good scheme, but guess what happens on friday nights? My tackle decides to take a play off and we dont get that backer blocked.. or my TE doesnt bust his hump to get the that FS.. and what happens?? That perfect play turns into an 8 yard gain, or worse, a 3 yard loss.
Now, on the defensive side.. you have everything defended right.. have this to take away this.. and that to take away that.. but your Corner jumps the dig route when he has the deep 3rd and the wheel routes scores..
When working with kids.. you have to take into consideration that they will not always do what your x's and o's did on that board..
There is not a zone you can draw up that I cannot find a void in on the board.. but that doesnt mean my QB is gonna find that void while me 16 year old OT just got whipped by your 19 year old DE and about to light up my QB.
On the board it all makes sense.. but not so much in real life.. Thats where the term "last man with the chalk wins' comes in on your topic..
Anyone can say I would do this.. and the next guy would say.. well then I would do this.. oh yea? well then I would do this.. so its a never ending battle..
So therefor when posting a how will you beat or defend this.. its not a great idea to come back with.. well what about this.. or how about if I do this..
|
|
|
|
Post by coachnichols on Apr 6, 2007 12:49:46 GMT -6
Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I didn't know that I had done that. I mean, I don't want to get into a back and forth like you mentioned. I asked about spying, that's been my only response until that one. I know the white board is a fictional what if universe where everything works all the time...again, I was just wondering what an offensive coordinator's responses might be. Then I could look at what they said on our magical board of know-it-all's ;D My intentions are to pick the brains of coordinators, not be put down. I hate white boards!  |
|
