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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 1, 2006 17:30:55 GMT -6
OK, I know I'm going to blasted for this but thats part of the fun of a message board.
I've read several times in here where the coach allows the team to decide the punishment if a player has to be disciplined. To me, this has always been a cop out. USUALLY, if it is a great player that the kids sort of like, they will reinstate the kid. Everybody wants to win. I think its a way for a coach to say. "It wasn't my choice, the team wanted him back".
Been part of coaching staffs where the head coach "consulted" the seniors who let a kid back on the team -- only to have the kid screw up again and embarrass the program again.
what are your thoughts...
By the way, i love this message board and think its a great coaching tool -- so be kind...
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 1, 2006 18:15:13 GMT -6
I think the policy has to be clear and supported by the AD and principal first ... Whats best for the program....worry about the seniors and what the players want second. Thats just been my experience.
I like simple 3 strikes method...each strike gets discipline (conditioning suspensions etc), then a unity council can try to reform a kid with teaching, suggestions etc...but if he screws up hes gone. Sort of the best of both worlds...the coach essentially says "you talk to him and see if you can save his butt"...
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Post by los on Jul 1, 2006 18:31:04 GMT -6
Depends on the type of offense kc. Did the kid break team rules, school rules or the law! The only way another player could embarrass our football team, was by not doing his job on the field! Anything else was an embarrassment to himself and his family was the way we looked at it. For example, if a player gets in trouble at school and gets suspended would I feel embarrassed?- No! If a player gets in trouble with the law and gets thrown in jail, would I be embarrassed?- No again! But if a fellow player or player I coached missed a tackle cause he sidestepped a bigger guy and tried to grab a jersey and caused a big gain because of it, would I be embarrassed? Hell yes! lol. So since were past the embarrassing the program part, if the team has any say whatsoever in a player returning (again depends on the laws or rules they broke) they should be allowed to exercise this option. Gets back to the caught and the uncaught hypothesis and whether your team is a dictatorship or semi democracy, I guess? Actually, i've always tried to encourage the guys on my teams to think for themselves and take charge on the field as much as possible, so this would be another natural step in leadership training to me!
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Post by sls on Jul 2, 2006 8:12:24 GMT -6
I used to do this to try and let the kids feel involved, but I have decided that they are still 16-17 year olds and are not to trustworthy sometimes.
I dish it lout now.
Anyone use a wheel of discipline. A spinner with 6 different punishments on it, including one that says no punishement. The kid spins the wheel and gets his own punishment. I heard a guy speak about it at a clinic, says the kids love it and the coach does not come across as the bad guy.
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Post by los on Jul 2, 2006 8:38:00 GMT -6
I should also clarify that for breaking team rules (curfews, etc..) was always the coaches (in house)punishment, that involved lots of grass drills, wind sprints and throwing up your lunch! In school violations were up to the principal! The team was only involved in out of school legal issues where a player had got in some trouble with the law! We had a few cases to deal with during my senior year, such as shoplifting by our starting tailback, a couple simple assaults, and some substance abuse issues.
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Post by airman on Jul 2, 2006 10:52:45 GMT -6
see there is a right and wrong way to go about doing this.
Hayden Fry at Iowa allowed his time to decide the punishment. however, the rules and punishment for breaking the rules was decided on before training camp.
a real simple way to do this is, last week of school, have a meeting, have the kids decide the punishment. it is set in stone, letter to the parents.
so if billy bob d 1 stud gets caught drinking in the off season and the kids decided that means 4 game suspension and you need to reapply to be part of the team, it is all said and done.
this is the right way to handle it.
the only time we have a vote during the season is, if a player needs to reapply to be part of the team.
my team is like a job. you have to apply to be part of it and you have to meet requirements like any other job.
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Post by coachmyers on Jul 2, 2006 11:07:50 GMT -6
Anyone use a wheel of discipline. A spinner with 6 different punishments on it, including one that says no punishement. The kid spins the wheel and gets his own punishment. I heard a guy speak about it at a clinic, says the kids love it and the coach does not come across as the bad guy. Our head coach used to have a giant dice(die?), same concept, although I dont think it had an option for no punishment. |
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 2, 2006 15:15:08 GMT -6
airman -- under what circumstances would a player have to "reapply" to be on the team?
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 2, 2006 17:40:13 GMT -6
We're a private school so anything like theft, drinking, etc. then they're gone for the season - it's 2 weeks out of school with zeroes on all tests and assignments for anyone, athlete or none athlete. A second offense during the year and they're gone from school.
With internal football issues like late to practice, bad attitude, repeated behavior problems with a teacher(s) we handle it with up-downs, tire flips, one-man sled drives and the like.
When it gets to a point where the coaches feel we may need to cut the player loose, we always ask our leadership team (selected seniors and juniors - usually about 6) meet with the player and let them know that they're on their last chance. Our team has done a very good job with this and the coaching staff feels very good about it to. Other than getting to practice on time, we really don't have any special rules that go beyond what our school already has. The kids, parents, teachers, coaches, and administration all know what they are ahead of time so we don't have a lot of debate when a violation occurs.
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Post by airman on Jul 3, 2006 9:02:06 GMT -6
airman -- under what circumstances would a player have to "reapply" to be on the team? one needs to understand they are the sum total of their actions. a kid who is drinking say , he gets a 2 or 4 game suspension. he needs to understand his actions have hurt his team. most coaches let a kid right back on the team. he needs to reapply to our team. he needs to come to the coaches and see if he is okay to be on the team, his teammates need to vote. he needs to address his teammates before they vote. basically he has to have a attitude of forgiveness. if he just blows it off, there are other schools in the city he can transfer to. |
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Post by los on Jul 3, 2006 9:12:22 GMT -6
Thats how it was for us also airman, the kid had to address the entire team and leave the room while we decided his fate(stay or go) The coaches then chose the appropriate punishment. And as far as 16-17 yr olds making poor decisions, times were a little different back then in that when you turned 18, could be drafted and sent across the water, so I guess it was good for the players to take some responsibility early on?
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Post by brophy on Jul 3, 2006 11:37:02 GMT -6
if kids shirk their responsibilities, then we have done a poor job of teaching responsibility and leadership.
It gives ownership in the program, how I see it, though.
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Post by runtheball86 on Jul 17, 2006 18:05:31 GMT -6
Coach Brophy -
So anytime a kid screws up, no matter what we have tried to do as coaches, its OUR fault? WE did the poor job?? Wow - that sounds like most of the parents in our community ... of course, there is another way to look at this - in addition to the fact that we as coaches we CAN always do more - there is also the lost concept of personal accountability (and I do think that is different from personal responsibility) in young people today. A few years back there was a national magazine that focused on the fact that the concept of "shame" is gone today. A school psychologist spoke to our faculty and said that she is most concerned with the fact that the young people she interacts with have NO regard for the way their actions might be perceived and/or punished by adults. Kids are QUICK to say "sorry" but, most often, that is just their verbal signal that the discussion of their actions should be over (as in, "look, I SAID I was sorry ...")
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 17, 2006 23:50:54 GMT -6
OK, I know I'm going to blasted for this but thats part of the fun of a message board.
I've read several times in here where the coach allows the team to decide the punishment if a player has to be disciplined. To me, this has always been a cop out.
kc... I don't intend to do any blasting... I agree to an extent with your assessment, but disagree in some cases. We have a senior meeting where the players set team rules in June. I guide it, they set the rules that I want- it is then my job to enforce the rules in accordance with our team policy.
In our wedding case("opinion's please" post), the issue was covered in a general nature by team and senior policies... but as it is with a lot of things, without a breakdown of every particular case (which, in my opinion, would be impossible... a lot of weird stuff over the years... like the kid who had to go to "nurturing" classes on Mon. and anger management on Tue.- due to court order. He played. And I do not regret that decision a bit... football may have saved that kid's life), resolution of an issue must be based on interpretation of how the particular events affect the team.
I do feel like I did "cop out" a bit... I do not think that being gone 6 days for a sister's wedding is justified. I think that it is an act that totally disregards the team. I think that the player who misses in this case should be punished by missing a game- and not just by extra conditioning.
Now a few problems I have with simply setting the rule period and not allowing for discussion among the captains (in general and as it applied to this instance):
1. This particular violation is one of interpretation. Our rules specify that the athlete discuss the absence with a coach prior to that absence- OK, he did that
2. Our hierarchy of priorities is 1. God 2. Family 3. School 4. Football Team. OK... #2 is of greater importance than #4.
The issue is the amount of days. A lot of people think I was wrong to consider giving this kid an opportunity to make up the days. Personally, I would rather bench him, but I think that reaction is based more on anger (Irish temper... very alive in me). He is a minor who must follow dad's (bad) instruction. Also, we do not have a chart in our handbook that lists acceptable time off based on event and travel distance. In a tug-o-war with dad- the kid loses. I've done that before, won the battle against the parent... and lost the kid. In this case, this kid who is missing practice for his sister's wedding will likely lose his starting job anyway. Maybe making up 11 conditioning sessions and watching an underclassman start over him is enough...
3. Our players (specifically, our captains) have to play with this guy for their last year of high school football- and in most cases, their last year of football. If the violation is not of an immoral or illegal nature, if it is not a criminal act, willfully disobedient act nor an infringement upon the team (which I felt it was- they felt it was not)...then I let the players have some say. It is their team. I will have 25 more teams.
4. As much as I hate to admit it, I am getting older, and sometimes am a bit out of touch and sometimes forget the feelings that give me a perspective of empathy. Our players understood this particular situation much better than I did (fairly odd family dynamic... without going in to detail), and I appreciated their input. It is more important for me to make the right decision than it is to "be right".
Maybe I am getting older and weaker/ maybe I am getting a better perspective and am becoming wiser... I really do not know.
One thing I have gathered as a truth- it is much easier to condemn another coaches player or a hypothetical case than it is to deal with your own guys. Whether we admit it or not, there is a lot more to every story than a two dimensional "black-white" issue. I'm guilty of the same responses too when it is someone else's player. I didn't realize that until recently though...
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