flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
Posts: 311
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Post by flingt on Oct 13, 2011 6:26:35 GMT -6
Do you try to "fit" your system with the players you have, or find a system that "fits" your players? Do you watch film on the previous year's team looking for strength's and weaknesses looking for players to possibly run your system, or find out what they can do and adjust to them?
I will be in this position next year, so I already have an opinion, I am just looking for others.
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Post by tog on Oct 13, 2011 6:39:54 GMT -6
your system should be adaptable/modular enough to fit it to the talent on hand--also keep in mind the overall picture and how your offense/defense/special teams fit together--what gives your kids the best chance to win? what can you do overall to help put them in the best situation
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Post by coachfd on Oct 13, 2011 6:40:53 GMT -6
Find a way to maximize the talent that you have, while transitioning long-range to what you know will work best and what you believe in for the future.
Keep in mind if you're starting this far in advance: you will get an entire winter, spring, and summer to identify what you think people can develop into, as far as working into your prefered scheme, and then you have several months to help bring them along in those roles...while developing the younger guys (freshmen and jv) based completely on what you believe in--your system.
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Post by Coach Huey on Oct 13, 2011 6:53:46 GMT -6
"system" stays the same.
play-calls, usage of personnel (who carries it, who catches it, how many times, etc.) changes.
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Post by coachwilliams2 on Oct 13, 2011 7:19:13 GMT -6
What level?
If it is varsity, I would say run 'your' system. The way you call formations, checks, routes etc. But fit your schemes to what you have. i.e. if your QB is going to a D-1 school and you are a wing-T guy, maybe you throw it more than normal. But that allows your other players to develop in the system so that when you do not have a D-1 QB, they do not have to learn a whole new offense.
If it is a middle school, or younger, I would find out what the varsity team does and try to incorporate their stuff as much as possible. Try to get their staff to sit down with you and 'clinic' on what they run and how you can best serve their program AND put your kids in a position to be successful.
I hope that makes sense?
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flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
Posts: 311
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Post by flingt on Oct 13, 2011 9:29:41 GMT -6
Some great thoughts. What if you're an "option" guy but don't have a QB who can run the veer but throw the pea out of the ball, or an "I" guy w/o a FB?
This is for HS only, so you play the hand you're dealt. I do think it's ok to have the subvarsity teams run something different than the varsity if they have different strengths. Keep the terminoloy the same, but the offensive philosophy is different.
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newb
Sophomore Member
Posts: 191
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Post by newb on Oct 13, 2011 9:44:28 GMT -6
No coach has ideal personnel year in and year out. However, good coaches will have a system that is flexible enough to incorporate the talent they have from year to year. If you're an "option" guy and don't have a QB who can run, maybe you run some double dive stuff and read DL's like the option just without the pitch phase. If you're an "I" guy without a true FB, maybe you use a backup TE as an H-back and use motions/formations to give him leverage on the guys he has to block.
Bottom line is that you need to run your system. If it's not flexible enough to fit different kids at each position, then you either need to find a new system, or use the weight room to develope the kids you need.
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Post by 10forhim56 on Oct 13, 2011 10:00:00 GMT -6
"System" meaning X's and O's needs to be flexible enough to utilize talent given. Not, crazy like going from VEER to Air Raid, then back to Veer. But, if you don't have the talent to run certain things, be adaptable to give your kids a chance. "System" meaning beleif statements about discipline, expectations in the classroom, hallways, practice, weight room, ie. stuff you can control needs to be non-negotiable, firm, fair, and consistent. Most places where a new coach comes in has a problem or else the old guy would still be there. You need to address the problem and fix it asap.
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flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
Posts: 311
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Post by flingt on Oct 13, 2011 10:29:52 GMT -6
No coach has ideal personnel year in and year out. However, good coaches will have a system that is flexible enough to incorporate the talent they have from year to year. If you're an "option" guy and don't have a QB who can run, maybe you run some double dive stuff and read DL's like the option just without the pitch phase. If you're an "I" guy without a true FB, maybe you use a backup TE as an H-back and use motions/formations to give him leverage on the guys he has to block. Bottom line is that you need to run your system. If it's not flexible enough to fit different kids at each position, then you either need to find a new system, or use the weight room to develope the kids you need. It's funny that you say "good coaches" adapt. I see way too many who have no business running some stuff they run, but are either too stubborn or unfamiliar with other offenses.
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Post by blb on Oct 13, 2011 10:56:37 GMT -6
I see way too many who have no business running some stuff they run, but are either too stubborn or unfamiliar with other offenses. With all due respect - how do you, in your apparent infinite wisdom, determine that?
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Post by lilbuck1103 on Oct 13, 2011 11:05:28 GMT -6
There is not a system out there that will make up for poor fundamentals, lack of organization and eventually, lack of talent / better players.
Coach what you know the absolute best, because in the long run, you will then have your players better taught, better prepared and in an overall better position to experience success playing the game of football.
Your talent and team make up will never be the same year to year. Take your system (which if it is any good) should be fluid enough to handle changes in your personnel.
For instance, being a Power / Counter / ISO guy who does not always have what we would call a "true FB." We take a kid no matter his size, but with a don't give a crap attitude and teach him the fundamentals of his position and the techniques which will help him. To compensate for him not being a "true fb" we may line him up in different spots to give him a better chance. Motion him across the formation to kick-out on power instead of coming out of the backfield. He has a much better success rate doing that. Same offense, same system, appears different because it is fluid.
Less about system...more about teaching kids the fundamental skills needed to be successful and using your system to find that right home where they have a chance.
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newb
Sophomore Member
Posts: 191
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Post by newb on Oct 13, 2011 11:41:38 GMT -6
The difference being that "good coaches" keep everything within their system. For example, let's say a Wing-T coach has a really good passing QB. If the coach is worth his salt, he'll probably incorporate more recievers in his base formations and focus a little more on the quick passing game while still being able to run his core running plays out of any of those formations.
If one of the coaches you are describing was in the same situation, they would probably run probably run their base Wing-T stuff, but add in some spread formations and passing plays even though they can no longer run their core plays out of those formations.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 14, 2011 7:43:34 GMT -6
I consider myself an option guy and would run flexbone if I could however when I look at the players we have and are going to get...i just don't see a qb that can do that...its not like college where you can recruit.....now we do still run some I option (freeze and load) just not a huge part of what we do
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Post by blb on Oct 14, 2011 7:53:39 GMT -6
If you want to run option you can find an athlete in most classes in most schools to do it.
Just doing the option stuff over and over can make a QB adequate. Even an average athlete can gain a lot of yards when nobody tackles him.
Mark Rypien (6-4, 230) was a Veer QB at Wazzu before he won a Super Bowl with Redskins. Brett Favre ran Wishbone for Big Irv in HS.
I have been running Veer for a long time and QBs have come in all shapes and sizes (and speed). Some are better at it than others of course (just like 'I' TBs, Wing-T FBs, Spread WRs, etc.) but if your QB is just going to be a caddy you're playing 10-on-11 anyway.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 14, 2011 8:18:05 GMT -6
If you want to run option you can find an athlete in most classes in most schools to do it. Just doing the option stuff over and over can make a QB adequate. Even an average athlete can gain a lot of yards when nobody tackles him. Mark Rypien (6-4, 230) was a Veer QB at Wazzu before he won a Super Bowl with Redskins. Brett Favre ran Wishbone for Big Irv in HS. I have been running Veer for a long time and QBs have come in all shapes and sizes (and speed). Some are better at it than others of course (just like 'I' TBs, Wing-T FBs, Spread WRs, etc.) but if your QB is just going to be a caddy you're playing 10-on-11 anyway. I used to think that too...ran it for years...we literally have 3 kids on our varsity that run a sub 5.0...we are best going north/ south
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Post by blb on Oct 14, 2011 8:31:36 GMT -6
we are best going north/ south So are we -that's WHY we run Veer, quick-hitting Dive Back: Even if we are slow we look fast. The fastest-hitting "north/south" play is IV. Close second is OV. I don't call IV or OV so QB can run ball or pitch it. I call Triple Option when I am reasonably sure that the dive is there. When I do signal it in QB's eyes dilate because he knows all he's going to have to do is step down line and hand ball off unless Defense does something unexpected - which we have practiced 1,000 times for every two times we run it in a game. If we want to take ball outside because Defense is bunched up inside we will run Quick Pitch or a double option. I don't think Army, Navy, or Air Force are overburdened with speedsters, either.
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flingt
Junior Member
"We don't care how big or strong our opponents are as long as they're human.?
Posts: 311
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Post by flingt on Oct 14, 2011 9:31:25 GMT -6
I see way too many who have no business running some stuff they run, but are either too stubborn or unfamiliar with other offenses. With all due respect - how do you, in your apparent infinite wisdom, determine that? It does not take "infinite wisdom" just observation. Simply put, they are not successful at what they are running. This is determined by breaking them down on film, and of course, their record.
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Post by blb on Oct 14, 2011 9:45:34 GMT -6
Simply put, they are not successful at what they are running. This is determined by breaking them down on film, and of course, their record. But how do YOU know that they are not successful BECAUSE of what they are running? Your inference is that they would do better running something else. Personally I don't have the confidence to pass that judgment on other guys in our profession - too many factors besides scheme that determine Offensive efficiency and winning or losing.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 14, 2011 9:45:58 GMT -6
Some great thoughts. What if you're an "option" guy but don't have a QB who can run the veer but throw the pea out of the ball, or an "I" guy w/o a FB? This is for HS only, so you play the hand you're dealt. I do think it's ok to have the subvarsity teams run something different than the varsity if they have different strengths. Keep the terminoloy the same, but the offensive philosophy is different. What is going to keep a QB from being able to run veer? This is where you make some adjustments; find ways to run veer as a double option; dive and pitch. You can still throw the ball around but you work with what you've got. IMO, you need to keep your offensive philosophy the same throughout all levels. Use a vertical development philosophy; add something in each yea until you have the full offensive package. There's nothing wrong with making adjustments to personnel. Our starting QB went down this week and we're making adjustments around that. His back-up is much faster but doesn't have a very strong arm. So, we're going to run a lot more of our naked boots, Belly Keeps/Follows and Belly Option.
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Post by carookie on Oct 14, 2011 9:46:37 GMT -6
Some great thoughts. What if you're an "option" guy but don't have a QB who can run the veer but throw the pea out of the ball, or an "I" guy w/o a FB? This is for HS only, so you play the hand you're dealt. I do think it's ok to have the subvarsity teams run something different than the varsity if they have different strengths. Keep the terminoloy the same, but the offensive philosophy is different. The thing is your players will change year in and year out. But you can't keep overhauling everything to meet your current crop's specific skill set, otherwise you waste a lot of their learning time at the younger levels. You want the Frosh and JV coaches teaching your system, the techniques and terms you want run. If you change it yearly you waste a lot of what is done in your program.
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Post by blb on Oct 14, 2011 10:09:31 GMT -6
"Vertical Continuity" at least in the HS program is invaluable.
I think it's important to be known for something, have an identity too whether it's "different" or not.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 15, 2011 11:46:14 GMT -6
I think there is a huge conceptual difference between what your "system" is, and what you ask your players to do. Huey touched on that above, as well as a few other posters. I am pretty sure blb's offense would look different with JC watts as his QB than it would with Troy Aikmen or Brett Farve (option qb's in their youth). Same system though. I am fairly sure Huey's offense would look different if Adrian Peterson was on his club as opposed to Drew Brees. Same system though.
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Post by blb on Oct 15, 2011 15:49:32 GMT -6
I think there is a huge conceptual difference between what your "system" is, and what you ask your players to do. Huey touched on that above, as well as a few other posters. I am pretty sure blb's offense would look different with JC watts as his QB than it would with Troy Aikmen or Brett Farve (option qb's in their youth). Same system though. I am fairly sure Huey's offense would look different if Adrian Peterson was on his club as opposed to Drew Brees. Same system though. The difference is - when you get kids at an early age, you can teach them how to play the game in a certain way, because that's all they'll know. And they'll get good at it. Especially before or if they start worrying about getting to the NFL.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 15, 2011 16:02:49 GMT -6
I think there is a huge conceptual difference between what your "system" is, and what you ask your players to do. Huey touched on that above, as well as a few other posters. I am pretty sure blb's offense would look different with JC watts as his QB than it would with Troy Aikmen or Brett Farve (option qb's in their youth). Same system though. I am fairly sure Huey's offense would look different if Adrian Peterson was on his club as opposed to Drew Brees. Same system though. The difference is - when you get kids at an early age, you can teach them how to play the game in a certain way, because that's all they'll know. And they'll get good at it. Especially before or if they start worrying about getting to the NFL. Definitely coach. That is a great example of something that is part of the "system", which is different than just what your offense looks like. My point was that your SYSTEM would be the same if you had JC watts as your QB as opposed to Brett Favre or Troy Aikmen. However I am betting the two offenses would look different on film. Taking the legends out of it, I am sure your offensive cut ups would look different if you had a future Div 1 CORNERback playing your QB spot as opposed to a future DIV I QB as opposed to a future Div I tail back playing one of your running back spots etc. The cut ups would look different, but your system would be the same. You wouldn't be saying "OK, I have to be a spread team because I have a good QB or I have to be an I team because I have a really good tailback". You WOULD say, Ok, I have a dynamic playmaker at QB, I need to emphasize the part of my offensive system that features that (Sprint outs, Lead/Load options --which ever one has the pitch key blocked--, etc. If you have that stellar RB, then you would feature THAT portion of your system. That was the point I was trying to make to flingt-- that the system would be the same, you wouldnt switch your system because of different players.
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Post by bccarnes on Oct 26, 2011 8:27:32 GMT -6
We have a pretty big "system" that can encompass a lot of offensive plays. Every year we go back and look at (in this order):
1. Players - who do we have coming back, who are our playmakers, who has the skill sets to accomplish what we are trying to do 2. Formations - how can we put them on the field to maximize their ability to make plays 3. Plays - What plays are we actually going to run this year? When our running QB graduates, we are going to set a whole section of our playbook on the back burner and only run what is going to give us the best chance to win.
Inside zone will always be a big part of our offense, but one year we might use a mobile QB to read the backside DE out of 3x1, some years we will get numbers in the box with a stud TE and use play action quite a bit off of it, some years we might be in a lot of two back sets and motion a wing around to seal backside, lead up through, etc.
On the other hand, midline will not be run by our varsity offense for the next two years until our pocket passer QB is gone.
That's just how we do it. If you trace it back far enough, I think it is Mt. Union that we got that from.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Oct 27, 2011 7:15:42 GMT -6
I'm on board with Huey and Tog. My offense and defense are adaptable to personnel. Same formations, player numbering, hole #'s, motions etc if I'm in the I, 2 TE, spread, pistol, or Gun. Tags change "Pro Right Gun, 34 Lead" vs "Right 34 lead" but that's it.
On defense the 3-4 was my nickel package for the 4-4, but it's become another base defense for me now that I've had this season to consider what small-schools have to offer. In the 3-4 the DE will just play in 2 pt but be called DE, the Rover will play the safety spot he would in 4-3 (slide). Works vs pulling a DL off the field and putting a safety on the field.
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