mjc
Probationary Member
Posts: 6
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Post by mjc on Oct 1, 2011 14:59:52 GMT -6
Hi Guys
I am going through player details at the moment trying to highlight positions to attritbutes kind of thing and was wondering out of the following attributes what , in order of preference would you place to each position.
Weight , Height , Vertical Jump , Broad Jump , Bench Press, 20 yard dash , 40 yards dash , 20 yard shuttle , 3 Cone Drill , 60 yard shuttle.
So here is a quick example;
Wide Reciever:
Height , Vertical Jump , 40 Yard Dash , 3 Cone Drill.
If we could keep it to the top 4 attributes per position that would be great.
Many thanks for your help and look forward to hearing what you guys think.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Oct 1, 2011 15:35:25 GMT -6
I honestly think they are all attributes, but have nothing to do with how well they can help you. How does a 4.3 40 dash help your team? Does a 300lb bench press help you? It's nice to have athletes with ability, but they still need to know how to use those abilites. It all comes down to what can't be recorded...heart, effort, mentality, awareness, determination, commitment, etc. Stats don't win games, execution and attitude does.
Sorry to sound like an a$$, but I honestly wouldn't spend my time with recording all that information. If kids were to see it, I'd feel that they would also be discouraged if they do not have the best "attributes," when in reality, it has nothing to do with how we determine who gets on the field.
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mjc
Probationary Member
Posts: 6
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Post by mjc on Oct 1, 2011 15:54:13 GMT -6
hey bluedevil i firstly totally agree in regards with whats most important is those intangible attributes , such as the ones you suggested. However recorded attributes are a good indicator to what position a player would be well suited to.
A 5"6 80kg player is hardly going to be starting at left tackle , no matter what his intangibles are , although he might possibly get time as a returner or a running back etc..
Also of course this information will no be shared with the players , i agree it could discourage people. The problem is the team is starting from pretty much scratch so its not a case of players being used to the game or experianced , its from scratch so i do believe in this scenario these statistics can help in seeing where a player should start.
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Post by fantom on Oct 1, 2011 15:55:33 GMT -6
Smartfootball just had an article about this kind of thing. Bill Parcells had a list like that for each position and now Belicheck does the same. At Alabama Nick Saban has a similar list.
Belicheck gets to draft them, though. Saban selects as much as recruits. Unless you're going to be able to draft them or you're at a high level D.1 program, where kids grow up wanting to play, what use would a list like this do? I think you'd just be wasting your time.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Oct 1, 2011 16:01:19 GMT -6
It makes sense, but make sure you are also counting the player's mental ability. We have an O-lineman this year who is division 1 material in terms of size, speed, and attributes (about 6'8", 290ish, fast, strong, and excellent footwork. Problem...he's an absolute baby. Any sort of adversity, he tucks his tail. He starts only because we are low on depth, and his form breaks down almost every play. If we go on a different cadence to pull the defense off, there is a 3/4 chance he'll jump. Not very disciplined or focused.
Those stats can only give you the physical ability of a player, so just don't bank on these attributes to determine your starters.
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mjc
Probationary Member
Posts: 6
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Post by mjc on Oct 1, 2011 16:09:16 GMT -6
Of course Blue this is literally just to determine a starting point , starter positions are a long way off and of course those who work hard and show the right intangibles will be more likely to start. fantom do you by any chance have a link to that article?
Thanks for the responses its constructive.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Oct 1, 2011 16:10:00 GMT -6
You mention that these attributes also help to determine who should play where. I am 5'2 and weighed about 130lbs in high school, ran a 4.6 40 and could only bench about 185. I played and helped the team more as a fullback and nose-guard than a cornerback and tailback (where stats like mine would normally put me). Our varsity also has a guard/DL that is about 5'7 and around 145lbs. skinny as a twig, but he can pull and trap better than anyone we have.
It all goes back to mentality. Attitude and mentality trumps all attributes, even when determining who should play where. That sometimes determines the difference between a TE and a Center, or a FB and a G, etc.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Oct 1, 2011 16:13:09 GMT -6
Basically, I'm just trying to second what fantom is saying; I wouldn't spend my time on it. If I were to do something like that, I can't see myself finding a reason to ever use it.
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Post by fantom on Oct 1, 2011 16:23:47 GMT -6
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Post by fballcoachg on Oct 1, 2011 16:30:21 GMT -6
Not to keep piling on here but also, depending what level you coach, you may be cutting out a significant amount of players and discouraging a bunch more. I know that at the HS level and smaller college programs you will find more players that don't fit a mold than do. For instance, one of our tackle runs and looks like a big wide out but we need him at OT while we have a freshman RB that dwarfs many freshman OL but that is his best spot for him and us. If we made a chart eh would be a Guard and our we would be playing half the athlete at Tackle that we have now. Unless you can pick your guys you are compiling worthless data, far more players are the grey area.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 1, 2011 16:44:31 GMT -6
Coaches---it seems he is looking at using these assessments as an evaluation tool in a "try out" type setting for a team outside of the US. On that basis, I do think there is some merit in using this information.
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Post by fantom on Oct 1, 2011 16:51:09 GMT -6
Coaches---it seems he is looking at using these assessments as an evaluation tool in a "try out" type setting for a team outside of the US. On that basis, I do think there is some merit in using this information. That's hard to do without more info about the level of play and the relative size and talent of the opposition. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 1, 2011 16:57:14 GMT -6
Coaches---it seems he is looking at using these assessments as an evaluation tool in a "try out" type setting for a team outside of the US. On that basis, I do think there is some merit in using this information. That's hard to do without more info about the level of play and the relative size and talent of the opposition. Well, remember he wasn't asking for values, but rather the importance of each attribute. That said, I dont know if you need to preordain the values of the attributes. Just put the players through the assessments and record the scores. Then when reviewing the scores and your memory of the performance might help you initially place players. However, You will likely make changes after putting on equipment. |
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Post by bluedevil4 on Oct 1, 2011 17:20:43 GMT -6
That's hard to do without more info about the level of play and the relative size and talent of the opposition. Well, remember he wasn't asking for values, but rather the importance of each attribute. That said, I dont know if you need to preordain the values of the attributes. Just put the players through the assessments and record the scores. Then when reviewing the scores and your memory of the performance might help you initially place players. However, You will likely make changes after putting on equipment. An excellent point: Can they hit and take care of themselves on the field? |
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raiderx
Sophomore Member
Posts: 222 
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Post by raiderx on Oct 1, 2011 21:20:33 GMT -6
Offensive Line - Must have a little turd in them...if they are not mean they cannot play for me.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Oct 1, 2011 21:58:09 GMT -6
Offensive Line - Must have a little turd in them...if they are not mean they cannot play for me. According to your name, and by reading that post, I am just going to assume you are Al Davis lol. |
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raiderx
Sophomore Member
Posts: 222
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Post by raiderx on Oct 1, 2011 22:15:49 GMT -6
LOL - Sorry not Al Davis - Texas Tech Red Raider.
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Post by coachorr on Oct 1, 2011 23:44:10 GMT -6
I haven't read this yet, so I am going to preface it with, "I hope no one said anything like 'needs to be tough", cause I have never been able to quantify this attribute. And sometimes, I just play a kid cause he is a better football player and I can't tell you why, he just is. This can be tough sometimes.
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Post by fantom on Oct 3, 2011 14:42:45 GMT -6
Sorry I misunderstood the OP. Here's what I'd look for at some positions:
OL- Size (relative to opponents), strength, intelligence/coachability, mental toughness,
feet.
WR- Speed (relative to opponents), hands, willingness to block, running patterns.
CB- Relative speed, quickness/agility, ball skills, mental toughness (they ARE going to get
beaten sometimes. How do they react?), physical toughness (willingness to tackle).
LB and RB- To me are instinct positions. You have to find out if
a RB can run with the ball and if a LB can get to the ball.
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Post by pmeisel on Oct 8, 2011 10:46:58 GMT -6
The best middle school level coach I knew used to start out by having everybody run every kind of basic drill -- stance, blocking, tackling, board drills, even some throw and catch. He figured out in about a week who had hands and who was strong, then started splitting them into groups. His reasoning was that at that age level they all needed some work on everything anyway.
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