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Post by fingerz42 on Sept 10, 2011 19:54:29 GMT -6
Hey guys, I am a 2nd year HC at a school that has a tradition of being poor. Very poor. The last winning season was 2003 when they had a 6-3 campaign (a team I was on). Since then they have gone a combined 18-52. Since the 2000 season their combined record is 25-82. The school's last 6-3 season prior to 2003 was in 1983.
Since my arrival we have been mainly a zone team offensively and run a 4-4 split on D.
The problem may be in part from the lack of fundamentals the kids get from our midget program.
My concern comes with the following. These kids are fundamentally terrible and have been coached by parents or volunteers that coached to see their son or relatives get playing time. Seemingly because of this, our varsity athletes (the team I'm HC of) have never been coached properly. These kids have never been told how to get in a proper stance, they never had blocking assignments, they didn't get told exactly what they needed to fix. The blocking was always just block anybody. "Fire out" or "Hit somebody!" type nonsense.
It is still very young in year 2 of the program I have installed, but the mindset and the fundamentals still lack sooooo much. I'm starting to question if my staff and I are overcoaching our kids. Are we trying to fix too much in too little time? Stance, base, leverage, aggression, effort, assignment, protection. It just seems to overload our guys. Some of the comments I hear from the kids has me thinking that maybe we do overcoach the kids. Some of the kids make comments like, "We're not a college team" and crap like that. Keep in mind we have TWO blocking schemes up front. I think its simply that they have never been told what they are doing wrong and how to fix it. So coaches actually coaching has them in a hissy.
We are still a struggling team, last year winning 2 games, and this year off to a 0-2 start.
Have other new coaches gone through this phase in a program? Is it possible to overcoach a team like the one I have described? Should I take a step back and let some of the stuff go? I guess I really don't know what answer I'm looking for, I just want to hear others opinions. Just looking for ideas.
Thanks for reading the rant fellas.
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Post by brophy on Sept 10, 2011 20:06:03 GMT -6
Some of the comments I hear from the kids .... well, there's your problem right there without fundamentals, you'll struggle to beat the teams you should beat and never beat the teams that you could. If the "kids are saying" is probably because that's what their parents are saying I don't believe in 'over coaching'. I believe there is a thing as diminishing returns when it comes to teaching football. Meaning, you can win games just on sheer athleticism alone and no matter how little you spend 'teaching', you're still gonna have kids that just can make plays (and ultimately, that's what its about) |
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Post by fingerz42 on Sept 10, 2011 20:12:39 GMT -6
Agreed about just getting beat by athletes brophy. That's yet another problem we have. Few true athletes.
I didn't change my philosophy based on the comments, just made me wonder if I was doing too much in too little of time.
thanks for the response.
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Post by fantom on Sept 10, 2011 20:17:21 GMT -6
First of all don't blame the youth coaches. I always expect to have to coach new kids from the ground up. I assume that've come in knowing nothing.
It doesn't sound like you're overloading them. Sounds like, as you said, they're not used to being coached. It may take a while for them to figure it out.
Look at your methods, though. Are you doing enough indy (fundamentals) work? Do you have a teaching progression in your indy work? Do they understand why they need to do things a certain way? Those are a few of the things I'd look at off the top of my head.
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Post by fingerz42 on Sept 10, 2011 20:29:09 GMT -6
Here are a couple samples of our practice plan. I use a ton of individual time. I like to go indies, small group, large group, team. The practices seem to go well, but come game time we look like a different team.
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Post by fingerz42 on Sept 10, 2011 20:29:48 GMT -6
A 2nd practice plan.
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Post by macdiiddy on Sept 10, 2011 21:01:19 GMT -6
I dont believe in such a thing as over coaching, What ever you dont coach, you allow
As a defensive line coach I understand kids coming in and not knowing anything, at the Little kid level they teach the kids to put a hand on the ground then go find the football, additionally for years now we had to deal with an incompetent freshman staff, so sophomore year they have no knowledge base of technique or even our basic defensive alignments
I would suggest to keep the course, make sure you watch film and point out terrible technique leading to bad results, and vice versa. Film (if time is made) can be a pretty big eye opener
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Post by coachbuck on Sept 11, 2011 1:02:40 GMT -6
Im a little confused. If your a var hc what are your freshman, jv coaches teaching. The first time a kid said to me "we arent a college team" would be the last time he tried to undermine me. I have a group of kids (Im a freshman coach) that has had poor youth coaches. These kids expect to lose and it doesnt bother them. We teach fundementals all day everyday and twice on sundays. We go over our coverages (Im d coach) until it is second nature. We just practiced saturday morning for two hours. All individual groups. So NO you are not over coaching them.
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Post by fingerz42 on Sept 11, 2011 1:28:33 GMT -6
They don't say those comments to me or my coaches, but I have overheard them say it. Our jv and freshmen run the same schemes and ideals as we do.
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Post by coachbuck on Sept 11, 2011 7:33:00 GMT -6
Coach, good luck its tough to change a losing tradition when the community and kids are okay with it. Fight the good fight.
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Post by bucksweepdotcom on Sept 11, 2011 16:57:22 GMT -6
Coach,
It is not going to happen over night. It could take years for the attitude to change, but it will. Keep plugging a long and working hard.
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Post by bucksweepdotcom on Sept 11, 2011 16:57:22 GMT -6
Coach,
It is not going to happen over night. It could take years for the attitude to change, but it will. Keep plugging a long and working hard.
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Post by coachorr on Sept 11, 2011 17:45:21 GMT -6
I have seen technique being taught all the time or plays being taught, specifically to offensive linemen, but never see a board drill, a push pull drill, a don't get reached drill and very few sled drills and the end result are soft titz on the oline, who have good stances and initially get off the ball, but have no physicality and can't finish blocks.
I also see this with tackling drills: sink the hips, shoot the hands, angle tackle, pound the ground with your feet, sky your eyes, hit on the rise, flat back, feet come alive on contact. finish through the tackle, get your head across the bow and on and on and on. When in all reality tackling should come down to three coaching points, yet many people (me included) put too much into coaching tackling.
Just my two cents on the topic, you have to have fundamentals, however, you have to not make it so it slows down the thought process of playing football.
I think a good measure is how much time is spent talking and how much time is spent playing football.
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Post by calkayne on Sept 12, 2011 0:20:28 GMT -6
Dont worry about negative comments from the players.
If they are whinging, your on the right track, it when they are b!tch!n that you have a problem to sort out.
Dont forget you are trying to change the philosophy of many individuals. This will take time and it wont be easy. Keep plugging at what your are doing and keep coaching them up.
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Post by tchestovich on Sept 12, 2011 9:13:28 GMT -6
Changing the culture of a program takes time. Have a plan and go with it. Eventually you will have a group that will take ownership and want to do it the way it is supposed to be done. The only advice that I can give you is to find some leadership within your team and sometimes that also needs to be coached. They have a losing mentality and when they come around and feel like they can win you will be much better off. I am in the same situation and it is very difficult and puts a lot of stress on you but you have to remember you are not only coaching football you are coaching them on everything that it takes to create a good program. I wish it was as easy as fundamentals but it takes more than that to change the culture of a program.
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Post by fantom on Sept 12, 2011 9:30:06 GMT -6
Keep in mind that these kids have no frame of reference. They have no way of knowing that they've been badly coached because it's the only way that they know. They don't know what other more succesful programs have been doing. Their complaints against the old coaches were probably that they ran the wrong offense/defense or called plays badly. They don't understand that they were losing because of poor fundamentals. It'll take some time.
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Post by CoachCP on Sept 12, 2011 11:11:21 GMT -6
Okay, I agree with what everyone else said. Here is one other way to prevent bad coaching:
The last thing, you go to the 8th graders right before graduation. Find all the kid who have never played. Get them out for football. Get some coaches who are passionate about technique and make them your freshmen coaches (and treat them well to keep them there) so they can start fixing problems with former football players/coach up the brand new ones.
Of the 18 (9 each year) starting OL/DL on my freshmen team the last 2 years, I believe 12 never played. And I had at least 17 in those groups who had played football before (we're a big school). We've gone 9-3 between those groups so far in their freshmen years.
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Post by coachorr on Sept 12, 2011 11:53:47 GMT -6
I agree with chibear, you need as many one way players at the Freshman level as possible. Your Frosh coaches need to be playing kids and improving fundamentals, teaching the basics of the Offense and Defense and instiloling into them what your program is.
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Post by fantom on Sept 12, 2011 12:48:44 GMT -6
I agree with chibear, you need as many one way players at the Freshman level as possible. Your Frosh coaches need to be playing kids and improving fundamentals, teaching the basics of the Offense and Defense and instiloling into them what your program is. I disagree about 1 way players. Although I agree that you should use a lot of players I don't believe in specializing at that age. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Sept 13, 2011 14:07:31 GMT -6
Not a college team?
I wonder if that was an opportunity to give them some perspective. Something along the lines of you haven't even started teaching them HS level stuff yet, much less college level material. Even if not true, might have been a nice opportunity to let them know they need to stfu and pay attention.
Or not. Too much about you and your kids I don't know. But I'm not sure I leave that one alone.
A lot of what's considered complicated is in the eye of the beholder - they talk themselves into it being too hard. That college comment is something you might want to save to bring up later, and you're explaining that what you're teaching is the equivalent of basic arithmetic, LOL, and they need to get it.
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Post by ajreaper on Sept 13, 2011 14:12:07 GMT -6
You can no more over coach then you can be over paid. Lord knows thats never an issue  Often times in struggling programs practice is viewed as something to endure, get through and go home and not I am here to learn and improve today- I expect to take something away from practice. |
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Post by coachorr on Sept 13, 2011 14:30:52 GMT -6
I agree with chibear, you need as many one way players at the Freshman level as possible. Your Frosh coaches need to be playing kids and improving fundamentals, teaching the basics of the Offense and Defense and instiloling into them what your program is. I disagree about 1 way players. Although I agree that you should use a lot of players I don't believe in specializing at that age. Perhaps what I should have said was "22 starters". Worst thing that can happen to your football program is have 45 Freshmen and then that group becomes 20 Sophmores. |
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Post by fantom on Sept 13, 2011 14:34:24 GMT -6
I disagree about 1 way players. Although I agree that you should use a lot of players I don't believe in specializing at that age. Perhaps what I should have said was "22 starters". Worst thing that can happen to your football program is have 45 Freshmen and then that group becomes 20 Sophmores. OK, I get that. |
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Post by mahonz on Sept 13, 2011 15:03:01 GMT -6
My concern comes with the following. These kids are fundamentally terrible and have been coached by parents or volunteers that coached to see their son or relatives get playing time. Seemingly because of this, our varsity athletes (the team I'm HC of) have never been coached properly. These kids have never been told how to get in a proper stance, they never had blocking assignments, they didn't get told exactly what they needed to fix. The blocking was always just block anybody. "Fire out" or "Hit somebody!" type nonsense. Sounds like you need to address that as well. |
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Post by fingerz42 on Sept 13, 2011 17:39:44 GMT -6
My concern comes with the following. These kids are fundamentally terrible and have been coached by parents or volunteers that coached to see their son or relatives get playing time. Seemingly because of this, our varsity athletes (the team I'm HC of) have never been coached properly. These kids have never been told how to get in a proper stance, they never had blocking assignments, they didn't get told exactly what they needed to fix. The blocking was always just block anybody. "Fire out" or "Hit somebody!" type nonsense. Sounds like you need to address that as well. I have. The entire previous coaching staff, jh/jv/varsity has been overhauled. Not a single coach from the previous staff is here. We are a small single A team that currently has 29 on the roster. Of the 29, 15 are sophomores and we currently have a total of only 20 of the 29 active due to injuries. We are currently playing a ton of sophomores and I have a ton of confidence that, with time, they will become a great group. Thanks for the replies guys. I'm glad you all agree with the mindset I have --which is to just keep chugging along. I just wanted to hear if others think there was such thing as overcoaching. Glad to hear most say there is not. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 13, 2011 20:59:15 GMT -6
Keep in mind coach, that chances are they don't KNOW what hard work is. They really have no clue how hard other teams are working. Sadly when those other teams beat them, they just say it was "bad coaching". It was...but not for the reasons they think. Many HS games are not won or lost on Fridays in september...but Mon-Fridays in January. A little anecdote. School A. A successful 2A School ( 300 9-12 enrollement). Kids I had coached their in JR high were now in high school and attending a track meet hosted at School B the 5A (2000 enrollment, largest school in state) school I was currently working with. We were wrapping up a relatively light day of offseason conditioning while the teams were arriving. When I went over to talk with my ex players from school A, they asked me "Coach..what did those guys do to get all that punishment". I told them...that wasn't punishment. We were just doing our light conditioning day. Their jaws dropped. None of them had ever seen a team work that hard. And this was a quality team. Playoffs on a yearly basis...but were never going to sell out enough to ever win the whole thing ( they are in John Curtis's district..so in their defense, they were playing for 2nd at best every year  ) So the moral of the story is they simply don't know what GOOD coaching is. They don't know what it takes to be a champion...hell, many coaches don't know either. |
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