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Post by bluedevil4 on Aug 25, 2011 23:52:52 GMT -6
We have 17 kids on our team (JV level). We cannot afford to lose any players.
Our best player (RB/LB) is an absolute phenom, but also our biggest headcase.
I have never in my life me a human being who is more full of himself, selfish, self centered, narcissistic, etc. and this kid is only 15 (NOT exaggerating). If we try to correct him on a play or assignment, he starts making a scene. If one of our O-linemen misses a block, he freaks out, etc. He knows he is the best player, and he knows the team needs. He uses this in a very negative way; takes every single chance he can to use the least amount of energy and effort as possible (in game and practice). He was kind of babied last year by two rookie coaches at the freshmen level. They let him miss an entire week of practice, and then started him on game-night.
Tonight in our game, he blew an assignment horribly and when I tried to correct him, he screams "stop yelling at me!" our other coach was on him before I could even say "your benched." The other coach is a good disciplinary guy, so I let him deal with it. The kid wasn't benched however considering we had no backups. He ended up scoring three TD's in our loss.
I have coached the kid in the past, and since I first saw him in 7th grade, no coach has succeeded in turning this kid around. He has been benched, given extra conditioning, sat out for games, etc. We don't want him to quit (we don't ever want a kid to lose interest in football). Talking to him is absolutely useless because he just says "oh my god!" and "why me" or "this is stupid," and just walks away.
We do not want to remove him from the team. He is too valuable an athlete.
A possible contributor could be that he has a pretty rough home-life, but I have been advised by every coach to not even go near that path. His family are part of the "big" family in town, so if you get on their bad side, you get most of the city on their bad side. He's really not a horrible kid (good sense of humor, very relaxed off the field), but as soon as you put him into any kind of athletic/competitive situation or setting, Mr. Hyde emerges.
Anyone have any suggestions or advice?
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GregH
Freshmen Member
Posts: 60
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Post by GregH on Aug 26, 2011 0:42:10 GMT -6
I have coached my share (36 years) of selfish players and others who needed football to help them grow up, and many have come along well. From what you describe, though, this young man's best chance of learning from you and helping your program is to be removed from this team in the hopes that football will mean enough to him to work to become part of the team the next year.
This is NOT giving up on the young man. You have already tried benching him and giving him extra work. If you can't correct him, you can't coach him. Remove him and talk to him in the off season.
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Post by thehoodie on Aug 26, 2011 0:57:44 GMT -6
We have an almost identical situation with the best player (from a broken home, lots of baggage, phenomenal potential) on our varsity team (also low numbers).
The HC isn't sure what to do either. One of our assts said he's had it with the kid, and will walk away if the kid isn't booted off the team.
The HC asked me what he thinks we should do, and I told our HC that really he has 2 choices:
1. Cut him now and cut loose of the problems associated with him. That way we and the rest of the team move on without him.
2. Accept the challenge to work diligently each and every day at molding his behavior and character.
No right or wrong answer. But I think you can tell by the way I phrased the choices, that I was pushing the second option.
The coach in me (the realist) says that the better way is to make our jobs as coaches easier, that no matter how good he is, he can't be worth the grief of dealing with him on a daily basis. However, the teacher in me (the idealist) says that I have an obligation to make this young man a better person, and that I will not give up so easily.
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Post by bobdoc78 on Aug 26, 2011 4:38:46 GMT -6
I have same situation on freshman level. I have been a varsity head and assistant for 20 plus. First time on frosh level since my career started. I have two extremely talented players who I have made run do pushups and the hc has talked to them. Today I am not starting them and they will play based on their attitude and behavior leading up to scrimmage. Just pulling the qb out on team offense during practice caught his attention. We will see.
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Fridge
Sophomore Member
Re-Building the Bocholt Rhinos (18+) in Germany for 2024.
Posts: 148 
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Post by Fridge on Aug 26, 2011 5:43:00 GMT -6
What I´ve learned from Coaching youth players: If they reach such concern-level like your player does in that age, they will seldomly change.
Especially when he knows that there won´t be enough pressure, because of his family, his team´s talent level etc...
Long story short: Talk to him and tell him, that there won´t be any backtalking. If he does, suspend him from that practice. Does it again? Bench him on gameday. Does it again, suspend him for a game. Does it again? Suspend him from that season.
The 16 others will step up, if they see the need. As long as he can do whatever he wants, and still plays, the others won´t step up.
They do it right? Show ´em...
I´ve never met a football player who wants to win a game as a backup for an a$$hole. If he´s the major pain in the team´s behinds, suspending him will free most of the others up and they will perform.
Perhaps not that successful, but with much more heart, desire and passion.
If your contract is based on the Win/Loss ratio... for me it would be the same decision day in and day out. Care about those, who need you.
Don´t forget: It´s mostly NEVER the player, it´s always his background / familiy / neighborhood which drives him... You don´t have enough power to run against it all! But you spend most of your energy on him, and perhaps (don´t know) don´t see the other guy´s concerns...
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Aug 26, 2011 6:31:27 GMT -6
There comes a point where, regardless of talent, the kid becomes a cancer to the rest of the team. Do everything in your power to help him-
contact the guidance department regarding anger management programs for the kid
talk to the parents about your concerns and how it's hurting you and the team and making them look bad
lastly check yourself-with all respect, you may have to find another way to communicate that doesn't involve yelling (according to your post he thinks that you are yelling...)
Good luck and I hope you can reel this monster in
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Post by airraider on Aug 26, 2011 6:56:51 GMT -6
As a coach, the worst thing we can do is start putting the importance of winning over the importance of whats right vs whats wrong.
You only need 11 to play... period...
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Post by fantom on Aug 26, 2011 8:18:01 GMT -6
Where's the varsity HC? If this kid is such a good athlete it seems like it would behoove the HC to get him straight now.
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Post by flexoption91 on Aug 26, 2011 10:25:14 GMT -6
I have a couple of questions...
If he is such a phenom, why is he playing jv? With only 17 kids I cant imagine your varsity squad is that big. I understand he is a freshman but if a kid fits in the phenom category I would think he is going to get some varsity looks.
Who thinks he is a phenom you, him, or both?
What do you mean there are no back-ups? By my count there are 6 guys standing of the sidelines with you, most of which I am sure would love to carry the ball. Are you going to win with those kids? I have no clue, but it seems your situation has little to do with winning and losing.
I totally agree with those that have said that you have to look at the team as a whole. The great thing about football is that it is the ultimate team game. 1 on 11 is not good odds and if you do not correct it soon that is where you are headed because the other kids will give up on him.
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Post by dubber on Aug 26, 2011 10:55:28 GMT -6
I thinking the coaching staff needs to re-think this a little bit (I myself have fallen into the same trap).
If we aren't teaching accountability and responsibility, then why coach?
Bottom line: Disrespecting your coach, having a poor attitude, etc. = no playing time.
Your team will struggle.
This is where your teaching opportunity comes in:
You have to make it clear he is the one who took himself out of the game, not you......the team is struggling because of his actions.
He MUST understand that........the other option is you guys b!tch about him in the coaches' office, but you allow him to dominant your team for the next couple years.
Another option is team conditioning for when he goes off in practice. He goes beserk, everyone runs, problem will be taken care of, I assure you.
Where is dcohio when you need him?
As a final note, and I'll get up on my soap box for this, as an offensive line coach I will NEVER, NEVER allow a skill player to yell at the OL.
I've even gotten into fights in the coaches' office about other coaches (who have no idea beyond scheme what we are trying to do) yelling at them.
Our individuals are the most demanding, physical, intense, and pressure packed, bar none. My coaching style is in your face and demanding of perfection. When we go TEAM, that is less intense than the Hell we put them through in Indy.
So I'll be damned if some wristband toting diva is going to yell at my guys............he says one word and I will destroy him, because he hasn't got a clue what it took for those guys to be linemen.
[censored/]!
(off soap box)
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Post by bluedevil4 on Aug 26, 2011 12:03:38 GMT -6
The Varsity does have over 30 players, as well as plenty of depth at this kid's position. We have by far the smallest group at all levels, MS through varsity. Everyone else has 26+.
I won't talk to the varsity HC today because they have a game today, but I am planning on doing it early next week.
The part about the team stepping up in his absence...it's happened in the past and failed miserably. They glorify and bank on this kid so much to win the game that if he isn't there, they just quit. In 7th grade, we did this and still won a game, though we as coaches had proven our point that they can win without him and he isn't the most important player, but they went right back to relying on him when he returned.
In 8th grade, the kid broke his shoulder game one and was out for the year. All the kids did the entire season was basically pout and play the "woe's me" card and they went winless. We did everything we could to motivate and build these kids up. It's kind of like one of those "bad egg basket" classes. I feel horrible saying that, and I will continue to do all I can, as well as the coaches, to bring these guys up.
Freshmen year, they had rookie coaches who basically let this kid do whatever he wanted and played him every down, and fed him the ball every play on offense. They also broke the offensive system and just ran school yard spread (snap, run around, chuck it), with no blocking schemes, so the kids were really spoiled and became a lot more un-disciplined.
I'm not trying to complain that I have a bad class. It is a very athletic group, just with very low self esteem, as well as this one kid. I would still prefer to remove him like you guys have suggested, but the rest of the coaching staff doesn't want that. I know this group very well, and I will not give up on them or this kid. I should probably try to address this kid in a different manner as he doesn't respond well at all to being lectured.
I know certain kids respond to different forms of communication better. How do some of you guys deal with kids who don't respond well to being chewed out, or being lectured? This kid does not respond well to this, both in private and in front of the team. If the kid misses an assignment, we can't say anything in front of the team without him spazzing out. Like I said originally though, he isn't an "evil" kid. He has a great personality off the field. He just gets very frustrated very easily, which sends him off into his tantrums. Any forms of communication that mike work for this kind of person?
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Post by jrk5150 on Aug 26, 2011 12:10:47 GMT -6
I'm not sure I'd be on a coaching forum asking. I'm sure there are coaches out there successfully dealing with this kind of kid, but my guess would be they have either been trained in psychology/special ed, or they simply have a natural knack for it, which isn't really going to be able to be transferred to you. I think I'd be searching for adolescent psychology/psychiatry specialists to get some ideas.
This kid is screwed up, likely until he's well out of adolescence if not for good.
I worked in a facility that dealt with HS girls even more screwed up than this, and there ARE ways to work with them, you just have to go find an expert and get yourself educated. I didn't work with the girls, so I don't have any specific answers.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Aug 26, 2011 12:14:37 GMT -6
I forgot to mention, we did just bring a freshman RB up this week, who will give this kid a run for his money on offense, but we have absolutely no backups at LB. I am planning at moving one of our DE's to LB, and hopefully we can start getting a little more flexible (and to give our head-case kid a bit of a wake-up call). If I do that, that gives us approximately four players we can put at LB (and we run a 4-3). No one else on our team has the ability to play there. We can't move up any secondary players as we have only 5 (the new freshmen RB being the 5th). The rest are linemen (8-9), but none of them have any chance of being a LB, even if we tried. We have one DL who is smart enough, but way too much of a doughboy for it.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Aug 26, 2011 12:18:34 GMT -6
I'm not sure I'd be on a coaching forum asking. I'm sure there are coaches out there successfully dealing with this kind of kid, but my guess would be they have either been trained in psychology/special ed, or they simply have a natural knack for it, which isn't really going to be able to be transferred to you. I think I'd be searching for adolescent psychology/psychiatry specialists to get some ideas. This kid is screwed up, likely until he's well out of adolescence if not for good. I worked in a facility that dealt with HS girls even more screwed up than this, and there ARE ways to work with them, you just have to go find an expert and get yourself educated. I didn't work with the girls, so I don't have any specific answers. I ask because I'm in college, and have never really had to coach a kid with his kind of mentality before. I also have no experience in psychology, except for the gen-ed intro class. I know not yelling at him is a way to start. When he did yell in the game though, I wasn't, I was just kind of giving him a reminder into his ear as he walked by. |
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Post by bluedevil4 on Aug 26, 2011 12:20:39 GMT -6
I'm not sure I'd be on a coaching forum asking. I'm sure there are coaches out there successfully dealing with this kind of kid, but my guess would be they have either been trained in psychology/special ed, or they simply have a natural knack for it, which isn't really going to be able to be transferred to you. I think I'd be searching for adolescent psychology/psychiatry specialists to get some ideas. This kid is screwed up, likely until he's well out of adolescence if not for good. I worked in a facility that dealt with HS girls even more screwed up than this, and there ARE ways to work with them, you just have to go find an expert and get yourself educated. I didn't work with the girls, so I don't have any specific answers. I ask because I'm in college, and have never really had to coach a kid with his kind of mentality before. I also have no experience in psychology, except for the gen-ed intro class. I know not yelling at him is a way to start. When he did yell in the game though, I wasn't, I was just kind of giving him a reminder into his ear as he walked by. I take that back because I did coach him before, but it was my first year coaching, so I had the IQ of a HS senior lol. I had no knowledge of communicating with players at the time. I have come a long way in those four years though. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Aug 26, 2011 12:22:14 GMT -6
Sorry - my point isn't to criticize, it's to point you in the right direction.
If you're serious about trying to get through to him, you'll need to do some additional research, and this forum is probably not the right place unless we have a child psychologist on hand. Which we might - that wasn't meant to be sarcastic.
You're in college? Perfect. Find out whether you have a psychology program, and if you do, go talk to the dean/chair/a professor, and ask for guidance on whether there's anyone on staff that could give you some advice/help.
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Post by fantom on Aug 26, 2011 14:18:55 GMT -6
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Post by downdownkick on Aug 26, 2011 15:30:03 GMT -6
If he doesn't respond to the small punishments, and you don't want to cut him completely, I'd say a 1 or 2 game suspension is a pretty fair compromise. I think its important not to give your stars special treatment, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater either.
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Post by coachguy83 on Aug 26, 2011 15:39:16 GMT -6
Coach I think you have a much bigger problem than one head case kid. It sounds to me like you have an entire team full of head cases that needs the chief head case to function. I understand that you want to figure out a way to get that one really talented kid to function within the confines of the team, but you really need to figure out how to get the team to function so that they can be successful with or without said player.
I completly understand what you are going through as I have dealt with several kids like that the past couple of years. I understand that feeling of needing a player, but you really don't. You need to do what is best for the team and begin to punish this kid properly, because right now he is hurting the other players more than he is helping them. I would start by sitting him down and having a conversation man to man about his actions have been inappropriate and will no longer be tolerated. Then moving forward you need to punish him any time he acts out and to be honest it sounds to me like he is beyond extra sprints and sitting a quarter. I think he is probably to the point that the next time is a game suspension and if that doesn't get his attention it's probably time to have him turn in his gear.
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Post by kwesterlind on Aug 26, 2011 15:46:20 GMT -6
There are a multitude of ways to reach a kid outside of punishment, suspensions, or kicking him off the team. With kids I have coached with these types of issues, I have tried the positive route. Give him praise for the little things (e.g. when he executes in pass protection or gets to his option responsibility on D). Build him up! Also, give him responsibility. I am not saying make him Captain, but have him break the guys down at practice and have him demonstrate some of the drills. He may need support and a family, not to be chewed-out.
This is not meant to be critical. Every kid needs a certain approach to reach him. The negative approach obviously is not working for this kid.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 26, 2011 18:36:54 GMT -6
I have never in my life me a human being who is more full of himself, selfish, self centered, narcissistic, etc. and this kid is only 15 (NOT exaggerating). If we try to correct him on a play or assignment, he starts making a scene. If one of our O-linemen misses a block, he freaks out, etc. He knows he is the best player, and he knows the team needs [him]. Tonight in our game, he blew an assignment horribly and when I tried to correct him, he screams "stop yelling at me!" our other coach was on him before I could even say "your benched." The other coach is a good disciplinary guy, so I let him deal with it. The kid wasn't benched however considering we had no backups. He ended up scoring three TD's in our loss.We do not want to remove him from the team. He is too valuable an athlete. He ended up scoring three TD's in our loss. (repeated for effect) You lost. What kind of value is that? Yes, a little simplistic, but the concept is that LOSERS LOSE. Thats a fact. Doesnt matter how talented they are....LOSERS LOSE. Kid doesnt seem like much of a winner to me at this point. It is admirable that you are trying to keep him around and such, but it seems like (from your description) you are developing a class of losers in doing so. |
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Post by Coach Huey on Aug 26, 2011 20:03:14 GMT -6
Coach... "Young man, who is the best running back you've ever seen play?"
Player ... "Chris Johnson"
Coach ... "Well, here at _____ High School we've won X number of games and X number of league championships without Chris Johnson. How many you think we can win without you?"
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Post by dubber on Aug 30, 2011 11:49:57 GMT -6
The Varsity does have over 30 players, as well as plenty of depth at this kid's position. We have by far the smallest group at all levels, MS through varsity. Everyone else has 26+. I won't talk to the varsity HC today because they have a game today, but I am planning on doing it early next week. The part about the team stepping up in his absence...it's happened in the past and failed miserably. They glorify and bank on this kid so much to win the game that if he isn't there, they just quit. In 7th grade, we did this and still won a game, though we as coaches had proven our point that they can win without him and he isn't the most important player, but they went right back to relying on him when he returned. In 8th grade, the kid broke his shoulder game one and was out for the year. All the kids did the entire season was basically pout and play the "woe's me" card and they went winless. We did everything we could to motivate and build these kids up. It's kind of like one of those "bad egg basket" classes. I feel horrible saying that, and I will continue to do all I can, as well as the coaches, to bring these guys up. Freshmen year, they had rookie coaches who basically let this kid do whatever he wanted and played him every down, and fed him the ball every play on offense. They also broke the offensive system and just ran school yard spread (snap, run around, chuck it), with no blocking schemes, so the kids were really spoiled and became a lot more un-disciplined. I'm not trying to complain that I have a bad class. It is a very athletic group, just with very low self esteem, as well as this one kid. I would still prefer to remove him like you guys have suggested, but the rest of the coaching staff doesn't want that. I know this group very well, and I will not give up on them or this kid. I should probably try to address this kid in a different manner as he doesn't respond well at all to being lectured. I know certain kids respond to different forms of communication better. How do some of you guys deal with kids who don't respond well to being chewed out, or being lectured? This kid does not respond well to this, both in private and in front of the team. If the kid misses an assignment, we can't say anything in front of the team without him spazzing out. Like I said originally though, he isn't an "evil" kid. He has a great personality off the field. He just gets very frustrated very easily, which sends him off into his tantrums. Any forms of communication that mike work for this kind of person? What you have to understand is this: By NOT handling this, you are failing both the team and this young man. You don't have to go all Bobby Knight on him, but in a calm manner, you sit him when he blows up. He has to learn to handle that.........there ain't no miracle psychology gonna fix him. |
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Post by jpdaley25 on Aug 31, 2011 5:30:45 GMT -6
This young man haslearned that he can act any way he wants to and will still get to play. He has learned the wrong lesson. JMO.
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Post by coachbuck on Aug 31, 2011 6:04:28 GMT -6
Coach he is not that much of a phenom. You lost the game. You could lose the game with or without him. I myself am not coaching on a staff that is gonna allow a kid to run the show. He is bad for moral and in the end will quit when you guys are 0-6 and blame all the coaches and not take any responsibilities.
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Post by dubber on Aug 31, 2011 6:31:03 GMT -6
Also, you make it seem like your only two options are to kick him off the team or let him be a tyrant.
There are plenty of other options available......you can teach him discipline AND keep him on the team.
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Post by texasslot on Aug 31, 2011 8:37:00 GMT -6
Screw'em kick him off the team and be done with it! Because if you don't you're sending a message out to other players that just because you're really good or the star of the team you can do what ever you want. Football is a 11 man team sport not a 1 man sport. I would cut the kid and be done with it. If he doesn't want to be apart of a team, and something bigger than him, then I don't want him on my team!
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Post by threeback on Sept 2, 2011 10:01:40 GMT -6
I have never in my life me a human being who is more full of himself, selfish, self centered, narcissistic, etc. and this kid is only 15 (NOT exaggerating). If we try to correct him on a play or assignment, he starts making a scene. If one of our O-linemen misses a block, he freaks out, etc. He knows he is the best player, and he knows the team needs [him]. Tonight in our game, he blew an assignment horribly and when I tried to correct him, he screams "stop yelling at me!" our other coach was on him before I could even say "your benched." The other coach is a good disciplinary guy, so I let him deal with it. The kid wasn't benched however considering we had no backups. He ended up scoring three TD's in our loss.We do not want to remove him from the team. He is too valuable an athlete. He ended up scoring three TD's in our loss. (repeated for effect) You lost. What kind of value is that? Yes, a little simplistic, but the concept is that LOSERS LOSE. Thats a fact. Doesnt matter how talented they are....LOSERS LOSE. Kid doesnt seem like much of a winner to me at this point. It is admirable that you are trying to keep him around and such, but it seems like (from your description) you are developing a class of losers in doing so. This.... Every behavior is learned. Whether it is a good behavior or bad behavior. This kid has learned to act like a horse's a$$-whether it be from his parents or previous coaches, he's learned it. Coach 5085 hit the nail on the head. This kid is a loser, plain and simple. You want the team to become a team of losers (although I think they already have by your description of how they act), keep him around longer and they will LEARN how to be losers by being subjected to this kid's antics. Hardest thing to do as a coach is to see a kid with so much potential and watch him pi$$ it away through his actions. Watched it a couple of times and it never ends up pretty. What you have to realize is that there are 16 other kids on that team that you owe your best to, and if one knucklehead is screwing it up for the rest of them, he has to go. Not trying to be critical in the least, but in your description of him and how you all have handled the situation, there are quite a few excuses in there about how/why your hands are tied in this situation. Don't look for an excuse (i.e.-his family is the "big" family around town), you'll only teach your kids on your team to be full of excuses. What you tolerate, you encourage. What you model, your kids will become. Good luck coach...I've dealt with a couple of kids like this before, and have quite a few gray hairs because of it. |
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Post by coachcb on Sept 2, 2011 10:11:18 GMT -6
Bottom line, a player better think twice before he raises his voice at me because it will only happen once. They ride the bench for at least one game, assuming I keep them around. This kid's cancerous attitude will spread and you will be dealing with several player with that attitude, versus one.
Honestly, coach, would you even think about keeping this kid around if he weren't talented?
We have a freshman this year that could make a huge impact on varsity. But, he's already benched for one game because he missed practice. He also done about a two miles worth of sprints because he continually shows up late (1 minute late=a 100 yard sprint). He may quit, he may hit his three unexcused absences and get kicked off of the team or he may turn it around. I hope he CHOOSES option three.
I will LOSE WITH WINNERS BEFORE I WIN WITH LOSERS.
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Post by coach4life on Sept 3, 2011 11:59:14 GMT -6
Coach I've seen that situation a few times now. I may echo what others have said (in a hurry and was just taking a quick look, apologies if I'm repeating something someone else has said) and would like to offer a thought.
Either a kid is going to get it eventually or not. If he continues to be directly in subordinate you gotta cut him loose. But before you do that he needs to have some clearly set, very explicit, behavioral expectations set for him. Spell it out in precise detail - "You will do this, this and this, you will not do that, that or that. Should you fail in any of these you will be dismissed from the team. Do you agree this is fair?" If he says yes, keep him, track it to the letter, and any failure to comply is dismissal, no ifs, ands or buts. If he is resistant to that conversation, you gotta cut him loose.
We all hate to give up on a kid, but in this type of case, giving in to his intransigence is giving up on the kid. He must understand that there are expectations to be met, behaviors that are expected, and standards to be upheld. If he refuses to agree, by letting him go you are teaching him that indeed that is the case and serving him well in terms of his preparation for later life. If he fails to comply, the same is true.
The hard part is it will hurt the team if you have to cut him loose, but it will hurt him more if no one makes it clear to him that to function in society you have to learn it's not just about me. You have a chance to help him understand that and you can't give up on him in life by not taking advantage of that opportunity in the context of football.
That sounded way preachier than I meant it to, but you know what I mean...
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