|
Post by rgrmaverick on Aug 9, 2011 20:01:05 GMT -6
Playoff game 3 seconds left 2nd down (4 down ball) Up by 14 Victory formation You took a knee on first down Opposition calls a timeout Linebacker blitzes and injures O line man
What repercussions would your association employ?
|
|
|
Post by Defcord on Aug 9, 2011 20:15:39 GMT -6
I would think this would be an immediate ejection for the player, which means he would have to sit next game. If the officials were positive the coaches called the blitz the head coach shoud be ejected as well. That was absurd!
|
|
|
Post by coachbdud on Aug 10, 2011 0:11:24 GMT -6
most white hats here will actually stand between the OL and DL when they are taking a knee to end the game
|
|
|
Post by TMGPG on Aug 10, 2011 5:37:02 GMT -6
most white hats here will actually stand between the OL and DL when they are taking a knee to end the game That is what I have seen a lot of lately and I don't think that is a bad idea at all.
|
|
|
Post by coachbags on Aug 10, 2011 8:11:03 GMT -6
I had a situation like this a few years ago. We were on D and down by 3. The offense was trying to take a knee from shotgun. They had had problem with their snaps the whole game. The QB took the snap bobbled it a little and our DE tackled him. The ref threw our DE out of the game. We asked why? We didn't know they were kneeling neither did our players. Our DE saw the ball bouncing around a little in the air and went after it. We lost him for the next game. He was also our backup QB and due to injury would have started next week. We always teach our kids to let up if we know that other team is kneeling. The problem in our case is no one on our side knew the other team was kneeling.
|
|
|
Post by tango on Aug 10, 2011 8:21:14 GMT -6
I tell the official that we are going to kneel the ball and help protect our guys.
|
|
|
Post by lochness on Aug 10, 2011 11:13:42 GMT -6
I think that what happened in the given example was excessive given the score and time remaining, and should not have happened.
That being said, I think it is RIDICULOUS if it's a one-score game and there is time remaining that the "unspoken rule" is that if the offense is taking a knee, you have to back off. A snap is a snap, and the game is not over. Anything can happen. The refs telling the kids on defense to stand there and do nothing when there is still time left in the game is poor.
Why else do you put in a victory formation (including swapping Guards and Tackles if your tackles are bigger bodied guys, going foot-to-foot, etc) as an offense if you don't expect there to be resistance from the defense?
I've never understood this one. Even if you "know they are kneeling," it shouldn't matter. It's a snap during live play. Period. It's the offensive team's responsibility to protect themselves and the football on every live snap, regardless of the score or the time remaining.
If we want to "protect guys" while sealing a victory...then change the rules or just end the game, even if time is still left on the clock. Otherwise, both O and D should understand that a snap is a snap, regardless of the intent of the offense.
Seems like I'm in the minority on this one...but that's where I stand.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Aug 10, 2011 12:03:38 GMT -6
I think that what happened in the given example was excessive given the score and time remaining, and should not have happened. That being said, I think it is RIDICULOUS if it's a one-score game and there is time remaining that the "unspoken rule" is that if the offense is taking a knee, you have to back off. A snap is a snap, and the game is not over. Anything can happen. The refs telling the kids on defense to stand there and do nothing when there is still time left in the game is poor. Why else do you put in a victory formation (including swapping Guards and Tackles if your tackles are bigger bodied guys, going foot-to-foot, etc) as an offense if you don't expect there to be resistance from the defense? I've never understood this one. Even if you "know they are kneeling," it shouldn't matter. It's a snap during live play. Period. It's the offensive team's responsibility to protect themselves and the football on every live snap, regardless of the score or the time remaining. If we want to "protect guys" while sealing a victory...then change the rules or just end the game, even if time is still left on the clock. Otherwise, both O and D should understand that a snap is a snap, regardless of the intent of the offense. Seems like I'm in the minority on this one...but that's where I stand. Then we're both in the minority. Where does it say that we have to stand there and get beat? The problem with the play in the clip isn't that the defense is playing the last play. The problem is that they're using it as a chance to get a last lick in. That's wrong and disciplinary action should be taken on that basis. In a one score game, though, why shouldn't the defense have a chance to make a play on a bobbled snap?
|
|
|
Post by calkayne on Aug 10, 2011 12:22:16 GMT -6
Not sure what your rules are, but unless you declare that you are Kneeling the snap is live. Once declared however you must kneel.
You can see that the play came from the Defensive Coach, so the player in question - I assume - is pressuring as he was told. From the playcall I also assume that there was no declaration of intent to end the game by kneeling.
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Aug 10, 2011 14:02:15 GMT -6
Obviously the kid on defense was in the wrong here, but at what level has ANYONE ever taught their linemen to do what that guy did?
The ball is snapped and it becomes live until the whistle, but that Olinemen never moved... that is just asking to get hurt... game over in theory or not, you have to protect yourself.
|
|
|
Post by tripleoption61 on Aug 10, 2011 16:09:43 GMT -6
I would of had some choice words for their coach.
|
|
|
Post by k on Aug 10, 2011 17:39:54 GMT -6
Obviously the kid on defense was in the wrong here, but at what level has ANYONE ever taught their linemen to do what that guy did? The ball is snapped and it becomes live until the whistle, but that Olinemen never moved... that is just asking to get hurt... game over in theory or not, you have to protect yourself. I was going to post this... Thanks for saving me the time. All of the red players sat there... IMO the red coach is the person to blame for the injury.
|
|
|
Post by highball007 on Aug 10, 2011 23:19:13 GMT -6
That was just terrible. I will say this, we tell our guys on both sides of the ball that during that situation we always take a step to load and protect our selfs. We go over this situation the first thursday practice of the year.
That really is to bad that the player was injured and I hope I never have to see that happen in person. That is disrespectful to the game and to his own staff. No staff would call a blitz in that situation, I hope!
|
|
|
Post by calkayne on Aug 10, 2011 23:37:13 GMT -6
Couple of Seasons ago, we had a team take 2 knees and then sweep left on us for a TD. My fault for not picking up on the fact that they didnt declare. Though imo, bad sportsmanship on their behalf just to make it a 2 score game before regulation time expired.
Now if the Offence doesnt declare I will call plays in as per usual.
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Aug 11, 2011 7:10:02 GMT -6
I don't quite understand the "take a knee" concept. Yes, take a knee, but until than, it's a live play.
I had a game where opposing team was taking a knee, ball was snapped into the QBs face, he dropped it, but the instant the ball was snapped the refs blew the whistle.
If that is how it's suppose to be done, than why practice a victory formation?
Speaking of the video and specific situation. Total AHole move by the DC.
|
|
archer
Freshmen Member
Posts: 51
|
Post by archer on Aug 11, 2011 14:43:38 GMT -6
If I declare to the ref we are going to knee it, I expect the quick whistle and that they protect my kids from a cheap shot. If there is no quick whistle I would just run another play and if it scores oh well.
We do teach our kids to protect themselves in that situation. The truth is, there is only so much they can do to protect themselves. A LB'er will always be able to light up a kid in a victory formation and it is just plain bad sportsmanship.
|
|
|
Post by rgrmaverick on Aug 11, 2011 20:22:55 GMT -6
Anyone notice the coach "sending" the kid.? 51 seconds into the vid
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Aug 11, 2011 21:24:42 GMT -6
We do teach our kids to protect themselves in that situation. The truth is, there is only so much they can do to protect themselves. A LB'er will always be able to light up a kid in a victory formation and it is just plain bad sportsmanship. Back in the '70s when I played it was common practice to tee off on the OL when one of them went offsides. In a college game I was playing LB when one of the OL jumped. I decided to get a piece of the center BUT he got his first. When I came up to hit him he caught me with a six inch punch to the solar plexus. Knocked the wind out of me. What could I say? He did it to me before I did it to him. Since then they don't let you hit the OL on an offsides and that's a good thing. I'm also not suggesting that you teach your kids to punch people in the belly (the good ones will pick that up on their own). There's no reason that they shouldn't be able to protect themselves, though. At least they shouldn't stand there passively getting ready to get rag-dolled.
|
|
|
Post by coachmoore42 on Aug 12, 2011 23:43:44 GMT -6
I hate to tell a kid the game is over, so I'm not a fan of the "unspoken rule" for taking a knee. If there is still time on the clock, we're playing to win. I'm certainly not trying to hurt someone, but I'm not opposed to telling a linebacker to go all out at an interior lineman to try to create a fumble in the backfield. I tell my OLmen to fire off to protect the QB in that situation, but it also helps protect them from things such as this. Now I do draw the line at a point...and it's somewhere before this... www.newschannel9.com/articles/school-985140-middle-video.htmlThat's uncalled for. Unfortunately, he is now coaching again...at the same school.
|
|
|
Post by utchuckd on Aug 17, 2011 7:04:44 GMT -6
We practice Victory too, but we also talk about expecting some kind of cheap shot reaction from the other team. They're gonna lose the game, it's emotional, expect somebody to take a shot. We stress protecting ourselves, protecting the QB, and protecting the ball. The OL blocks like PAT, and we coach up the QB to take one step back, hit a knee, and get back up and out. If you sit there on a knee you are a target of opportunity, and if you stand there trying to get another second or two off the clock the play is still live and you invite somebody to light you up.
|
|
|
Post by insidethestripes on Aug 17, 2011 9:40:02 GMT -6
There is simply NO justification for this in a two score game. Player and coach are going home. Ejection/special report to the league - let them dole out the remaining punishment.
|
|
jlt
Junior Member
Posts: 313
|
Post by jlt on Aug 22, 2011 7:07:44 GMT -6
IMO and I risk putting a few noses out of joint here.
Stand back and let the opposition take the knee. Next time, win the damn game and then you can be the ones taking the knee.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Aug 22, 2011 7:19:45 GMT -6
IMO and I risk putting a few noses out of joint here. Stand back and let the opposition take the knee. Next time, win the {censored} game and then you can be the ones taking the knee. I'm not talking specifically about this situation since the game in the OP was a 2 score game. In a 1 score game, though, I didn't realize that te game officially ended when the offense went into a victory formation.
|
|
jlt
Junior Member
Posts: 313
|
Post by jlt on Aug 22, 2011 7:59:15 GMT -6
Oh yeh wasnt aiming it at anyone here. Just saying that there was a good 59 minutes before the knee to win the game for yourselves.
|
|
|
Post by hamerhead on Aug 22, 2011 8:11:50 GMT -6
Maybe I'm off my rocker, but when we install victory formation, I teach our OL and TEs that its just like any other play for them. They're pass blocking for it, since we stay in the gun. We put two backs in the A-gaps whose sole responsibility is to watch the snap from all the way from center to QB. We align our RB about ten yards behind the QB as a free safety just in case theirs a high snap. Our qb varies his cadence so the defense can't play that game of trying to hit the centers hand.
It doesn't take long to "install" and the kids enjoy practicing it. To us, its any normal play. We teach them that if the defense wants to back off and accept their fate, be classy and allow them to. Since our first step is a kickstep backwards (pass pro) the defense essentially decides if their will be contact at all, but our kids are playing.
|
|
|
Post by fbref76 on Aug 22, 2011 14:55:53 GMT -6
I hate to say it but that play is legal. There is no "unspoken rule." That play is governed by the regular rules of football. The defensive player may be guilty of Illegal Helmet Contact (Butt Blocking), but other than that, it's a regular football play.
Those plays can be tense, because kids always ask if they can hit. Unless you have a special rule, the kids CAN HIT. I always tell them to "not do anything stupid" because I can't tell them to not hit.
Kids should be coached to be careful on all plays. In this case, the league might have a problem with the play. It looks like a planned cheap shot.
|
|
hwkfn1
Junior Member
Posts: 258
|
Post by hwkfn1 on Aug 25, 2011 6:47:03 GMT -6
I had the same situation a few years ago. Down by 1 with just over a minute left and we had 2 TOs left. They start taking a knee, and we blitz the house, cause a fumble. Ref blows the play dead, even though we recovered the fumble. Refs starts cussing at me and my players. Itell him we are not going to let up until we are out of TOs, etc. Very bad situation.
|
|
lono
Freshmen Member
Posts: 27
|
Post by lono on Aug 30, 2011 7:30:24 GMT -6
Last year we were down 13 with under a minute to play, other team 1st down on our 30. We had 1 TO left and chose to eat it and move on to districts healthy. After us not calling a TO the qb ran to their sideline to talk to his coach. He then talked to the ref, I am the DC and assumed they were taking a knee. I told my kids to stand there and let them kneel it and not do something stupid. We stood there and they ran a play and scored. I will never tell my team to do that again. We will play balls out until the final whistle.
|
|
|
Post by Coach JR on Aug 30, 2011 7:59:40 GMT -6
Given the scenario here...it was all around bad. The LB had no business blitzing really, BUT it is live play. The Offense has to understand that, whether they're up by 1, or 100.
Last night, our JV was up by 8 when we took over on offense at mid field. The opposing team was hitting the A gaps hard to try and slap the ball out of the QBs hands. Had no problem with it.
|
|
redbug
Sophomore Member
Posts: 188
|
Post by redbug on Aug 31, 2011 23:00:24 GMT -6
We played a team a couple of years ago who had won conference the previous 5 years. End of the game we are down by 5. They take a snap and take a knee, the next snap was bobble the de hit the qb causing a fumble opposite de scoops and scores the ref blew it dead because he was in the process of taking a knee without possession.
Tough scenario to call but a one score game you have to go all out, multiple score game not so much.
|
|