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Post by eghscoach on Jul 24, 2011 13:26:59 GMT -6
Don't cut them - make them cut themselves. Those who did not come, give them a strenuous conditioning test which they do not receive equipment till they pass - ala Albert Haynesworth. Make them attend EVERY px and watch and then do hard conditioning supervised by the "drill sergeant" on your staff after. They skip a px - they quit and are done. Those who did not come much, give them a bunch of extra conditioning after every practice for a wile, and possibly not allow them to play in pre-season game/scrimmage. You have to demand and draw a line in the sand, but demand within the rules!
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Post by teddymac44 on Jul 24, 2011 13:28:50 GMT -6
BLB I don't know where you coach but our spring, summer lifting and running are MANDATORY! How can you have a program where kids get to just show up Aug. 8th for us and say, coach I am ready can I play? If the parents don't want their kid involved in the requirements to play a brutal, tough, TEAM GAME, than yes go play Tennis, swimming, etc. Sports where you don't have to rely on anyone else to get the job done. Frosh, Soph, JR or SR! Why would we change the requirements based on what grade your in??? Let's see those same parents are going to change their mind when their kid is a Soph right? Good riddance to the kid and the parents! I know at 14 I was definitely ready to tell my parents what was important to me and if I felt I needed to make workouts they would not only listen to me but follow my wishes! Blb, ask the kids if they think it's fair they bust thier butt during workouts and this kid that mommy and daddy don't want him to actually work for something in his life, rolls in when the season starts. Let's see how fast you lose those kids respect as a coach! Heck we have an overweight kid in our program now and he misses all the time for reasons mommy writes a note for and the kids are pissed! Just can't run a program where kids parents and kids tell you how it's going to be!
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Post by blb on Jul 24, 2011 13:33:51 GMT -6
So long as a kid is eligible, follows training rules, attends practice daily, and can protect himself, we don't cut anyone at any level.
Usually don't have to. Kids with attitude problems or other issues don't want to work as hard as they know they'll have to and drop out at lower level or don't come out.
Occasionally some choose to endure anyway. If they are a detriment to team morale we may have a parting of the ways.
Very difficult to educationally justify HS football if you make it a zero sum game - only for those with special aptitude and-or meet arbitrary requirements outside of the competitive season.
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Post by fantom on Jul 24, 2011 13:34:19 GMT -6
BLB I don't know where you coach but our spring, summer lifting and running are MANDATORY! How can you have a program where kids get to just show up Aug. 8th for us and say, coach I am ready can I play? If the parents don't want their kid involved in the requirements to play a brutal, tough, TEAM GAME, than yes go play Tennis, swimming, etc. Sports where you don't have to rely on anyone else to get the job done. Frosh, Soph, JR or SR! Why would we change the requirements based on what grade your in??? Let's see those same parents are going to change their mind when their kid is a Soph right? Good riddance to the kid and the parents! I know at 14 I was definitely ready to tell my parents what was important to me and if I felt I needed to make workouts they would not only listen to me but follow my wishes! Blb, ask the kids if they think it's fair they bust thier butt during workouts and this kid that mommy and daddy don't want him to actually work for something in his life, rolls in when the season starts. Let's see how fast you lose those kids respect as a coach! Heck we have an overweight kid in our program now and he misses all the time for reasons mommy writes a note for and the kids are {censored}! Just can't run a program where kids parents and kids tell you how it's going to be! Yet you say that you have a kid who does just that. In BLBs state, as in mine, you can't make offseason work mandatory.
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Post by blb on Jul 24, 2011 13:40:56 GMT -6
teddy if you looked under my Personal Information you'd see I am in Michigan.
As fantom noted, our state association has regulation against using out of season activities as a criteria for team membership. But I wouldn't, anyway.
And you grossly underestimate how sympathetic teammates would be to a kid in situation as lochness described.
I am going into my 37th year coaching football (have had enough success to last this long). I know what kind of game it is and what kind of commitment it takes.
Don't seem to be having any issues with kids' respect. And we get great cooperation from parents because we let them know what we're doing and why.
But thanks for the lecture, anyway.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jul 24, 2011 15:04:19 GMT -6
Gonna echo blb here and just add there is a difference between not being able to make it and just not going. Each situation should be handled differenty because each situation may very well be different. Am I going to let a kid walk in on the first day of practice and be a starter without doing any work, no, but I will let him earn back some playing time throughout the preseason and season. Kids that work throughout the year set themselves up in a better situation and they understand that.
Teddymac, while you may have called the shots at 14 in your house that is not the norm. Some of our kids have more pressing legit issues than summer workouts so if they miss some here or there with a legit reason but bust their a$$ when they are present then why should I penalize them for something out of their control. This is high school ball, if they are willing to do all that is required throughout the pre-season and season then they should have the opportunity to try and earn playing time like everyone else (yes they will be behind the 8 ball but that is the advantage of those that worked out). You are obviously in a very rare situation where off-season work is mandatory but understand we are talking about few kids here and that, at least in our situation, our kids also understand that some have responsibilities or obligations that they cannot control. Most kids show up, those that just blow it off will weed themselves out anyways as once the season starts (the mandatory portion for most of us), the gray area tends to get much much smaller.
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Post by blb on Jul 24, 2011 15:11:49 GMT -6
The kids that attend our off-season stuff consistently will score better on our Physical Fitness Test and start off higher on depth chart, will be mildly uncomfortable during Two-a-days.
Those that don't, won't, and will suffer greatly.
Also, we buy a special T-shirt for the kids who attend every Summer Conditioning Workout and they lead Warm-ups first week before we vote for captains.
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Post by wingtol on Jul 24, 2011 18:14:01 GMT -6
BLB I don't know where you coach but our spring, summer lifting and running are MANDATORY! How can you have a program where kids get to just show up Aug. 8th for us and say, coach I am ready can I play? I would guess just like here in PA that his state athletic association tells him that why yes a kid can just show up on the first MANDATORY day that the state association sets since everything before that is non-mandatory. I guess you can have a program like that because you are bound to allow that if you want to be part of your state association. Is it right for a kid to do that? No. But it most certainly is their right according to your state association.
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Post by teddymac44 on Jul 24, 2011 19:34:07 GMT -6
I think there is a bit of confusion here I was responding to the parents that wouldn't allow their kids to show up to any off-season workouts for no reason at all that was stated earlier in the post. The kid that is on our team has had doctors notes so you know as a coach you have to abide by whatever the doctor says. BLB it's all good I think that was the confusion. Yes our workouts are mandatory as stated earlier but you can make them up as stated so we don't have any problems whatsoever. But than again California like Texas and Florida are a little crazy about their HS football. I am not the HC just the DC so I don't lay the ground rules but I think you have to get a commitment from the kids and the parents and thankfully we get that.
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Post by dubber on Jul 24, 2011 20:25:11 GMT -6
Remember, positive reinforcement yields better results than negative punishment.
We give our freshmen a pass....as long as they are there by 2-a-days. After that, we make them buy in....
We have one exception. One of our seniors makes every workout in the winter and spring and works everyone else under the table.
He is also dirt poor, and if he wants anything....like a car and gas.....he has to work in the summer.
Rare situation....maybe a lot of you all would handle it differently, but it works for us.
In the end, whatever you do has to work for you. Consistency does not necessarily mean strict.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 5:40:10 GMT -6
Football is the ultamite commitment sport, you are either in or you're not...period. As for that, I was usually lenient with kids who were going to be on JV. I left JV for the young, and the ones that just wanted something to do. Varsity was for the committed, the ones who earned it and played for more than just something to do on a Friday night.
The other side of the coin here is, if they kid's parents are this nuts about workouts, how are they going to be during the rest of the season? If the kid really wants to play, he's going to find a way there, if not, good riddance. Problem parents are YOUR problem if you let them be. You have a shot here to get rid of a problem, even though the kid is a good athlete. Sometimes us as football coaches can't see the forest for the trees and don't realize what this kind of issue can do to a football team. I just got done with 3 years of pure hell b/c we decided to keep a very good athlete we had at QB, who was a nutjob and so were his parents. Had we dumped this kid day 1, life would have been much eaiser, and our team could have possbile had more cohesiveness. Think of the overall picture when you make decisions like these, as they will come back around, especially if they are freshmen.
As to parents getting you fired, well, you don't belong there then. I've been there, had that done, and I thank the Lord everyday I'm not there now. The team is worse off, their records have been worse and they haven't been back to the playoffs since. If that is what you are experiencing where you are, then you aren't being backed. The best thing you can do is explain what it takes to win, explain that you are not in the minority (most HS's I know do some lifting and conditioning in the off-season) and hopefully the results show on the field. That's all you really can do, in the end, if it doesn't work out, go somewhere else and keep trying.
Duece
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Post by lochness on Jul 25, 2011 6:27:38 GMT -6
The bottom line is that we (like many others here) cannot make our spring and summer workouts, mini-camps, or anything else "requirements" because of our state rules, and we could very easily be challenged if we were seen to be "picking on a kid" who didn't attend these non-mandatory workouts.
Believe me, life would be simple if that were the case. I wouldn't need to ask the question if that were the case. But, you just can't do it in our state. The best you can do is build a culture and keep encouraging participation through whatever means are humanly possible. That's what we do, and we've done a great job. We only have 1 or 2 starting-caliber athletes who don't make the sessions regularly. Everyone else, including incoming Freshmen, are very well onboard.
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Post by hsrose on Jul 25, 2011 7:17:34 GMT -6
Do the programs that have the "you are in or you are not!" approach have the same 'rules' for the coaches? I mean, I'm just a 1st year JV HC and have gone through all of the things you have described above and more.
But the bigger issue is that the coaches on staff are teachers and working summer schools and their own educational programs. One is getting a divorce and going through the moving out-custody thing, the other has a job in a town 30 miles away, while the third has spent 3 weeks in Korea and China this summer. I missed 3 days taking my son to kicking camp in SoCal. If I took the hardline "he's not here he's gone" attitude with the players, how can I not do the same with the coaches?
This situation has affected the team in that while the group level things, conditioning, 7-7, weights have gone well (situations where 1 coach can handle a lot of kids), putting in the details of the blocking schemes or the defensive fronts is not there, too much detail for one coach with 30 players to work through effectively. So, like the varsity coach told me, our teams are at opposite ends - they can run plays, but can't run a lick, our guys can run all day, but can't run a play.
So far this summer (see, my scar is bigger than your scar...): Player came to all off-season workouts and the first day of summer. Told me he had parent issues and would be back in August. I allowed for that knowing that this is a good kid. Now the other players tell me his parents have split and he will be in Texas or Florida, not sure yet depending on who gets custody. He was my starting center.
My OG is there all summer and then stops coming. I track him down and he's "oh, didn't I tell you, I'm transferring to x school".
Another OL/DL is there for the first month until we get to contact camp, and then he faded from sight. Kids tell me 'that's just how he is, very flaky'.
Very fast soccer player, started on varsity soccer team as a Freshmen, works most of the summer, works at tailback, does darn well, then comes and tells me his father is making him quit because he's not doing well in an on-line class.
Varsity starts off with a Soph playing up with them. Couple of weeks back they drop him down to JV for discipline problems, I'm warned "don't fall in love with him" because he makes bad decisions. Doesn't run, doesn't lift, but we call him Green Mile because he is just plain huge and strong has great feet. Has opinions on everything including who should be QB. He's a disruption but we've had a couple of "here's the line" talks, probably the first he's ever had, and he seems to be coming around.
Next season I'm looking at going with a points method - so many for each session, so many for improvements on physical tests, so many for fund raising, etc. You have to have xx points to play in the scrimmage and games. You come to spring and summer workouts, sell what you are asked to sell, and you will get your points. If you don't have the points you earn them once double-days start by running posts - goal post to goal post, under a time = 3 points, over = 1 point.
There is no easy way here, each situation is different, and each resolution is different.
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Post by kcbazooka on Jul 25, 2011 7:28:52 GMT -6
good point about the assistants -- if we "make" the athletes accountable for being a so many sessions but as coaches we split up the supervision so we can all get our vacations in .... missed message?
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scatter
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Post by scatter on Jul 25, 2011 8:12:45 GMT -6
Amen, "worry about what you can control..." I've been a HC for 18 of my 30 years in coaching. I've seen and tried nearly everything, and am most comfortable with this philosophy. Is it perfect? No. We try our best to make off-season workouts something they want to be a part of, rather than something they have to be a part of. Certainly the physical conditioning is important, but this time can also be used to build camaraderie and team chemistry. I have found that periodically taking the team to a movie or set up a bowling competition can be far more valuable than another day in the weight room. Oh, yeah, and feed them every once in a while! JMHO
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 9:13:31 GMT -6
Amen, "worry about what you can control..." I've been a HC for 18 of my 30 years in coaching. I've seen and tried nearly everything, and am most comfortable with this philosophy. Is it perfect? No. We try our best to make off-season workouts something they want to be a part of, rather than something they have to be a part of. Certainly the physical conditioning is important, but this time can also be used to build camaraderie and team chemistry. I have found that periodically taking the team to a movie or set up a bowling competition can be far more valuable than another day in the weight room. Oh, yeah, and feed them every once in a while! JMHO Good post coach. Here's some things I've done in the past to make the weight room and off-season be THE place to be in the summer: footballislifeblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Off-seasonDuece
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Post by teddymac44 on Jul 25, 2011 13:29:22 GMT -6
Deuce great points I guess you just said it better than me, LOL. Man HSROSE you got a ton of issues I feel for you! Just do the best you can with what the varsity coach has given you is about all you can do. We have coaches that are commited and like I said we have a 3 week dead period so that's when our coaches take off. We have 2 in Hawaii right now, 1 at Lake Tahoe and I am heading out Weds to visit my brother in Minnesota so luckily we can do get refreshed and ready to roll in 2 weeks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2011 13:54:56 GMT -6
When I was a HC, I required the assistants to be there for 2 weeks during the summer. I also asked them to attend one 7 on 7 or camp, depending on where we were going etc. Most had no trouble, but I had a few slackers to say the least. Again, to me, you are paid to be a football coach, not being there, is not doing your job. That's the way I've always looked at, however I think you need to have some ground rules as to what being there and not being there are defined as.
Duece
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scottc
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Post by scottc on Jul 30, 2011 20:12:46 GMT -6
I took over a school at the beginning of this summer and had a kid that had to live with his dad in July. The very first day he came to me and explained the situation and the other staff and players told me as well. That is what we call a 'hardship' case and therefore we make a plan around what days if any they can be there and set the requirement for that. Had another kid who had to move away a month because his homelife is crappy. When he is here is works as hard as any kid on the team. Treating people fair is not treating everyone the same.
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Post by k on Jul 31, 2011 21:07:48 GMT -6
good point about the assistants -- if we "make" the athletes accountable for being a so many sessions but as coaches we split up the supervision so we can all get our vacations in .... missed message? No coaches don't become better coaches by going to lifting sessions. They are however expected to attend every meeting and improve themselves as coaches...
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