smd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211
|
Post by smd on Apr 14, 2006 21:21:07 GMT -6
my 2 cents... 1.) public schools = state government. nuff said. 2.) get rid of lousy teachers. okay jim322ps.... what do you replace them with? in metro areas it will easy ( larger tax base which equals higher pay, lots of attractions and entertainment for the family and job opportunties for the spouses), but what about the rural areas or smaller communities which lack those resources to attract qualified teachers and keep them. jim, the more i think about this, the more i realize that you really don't have a clue. no matter what you say, you are just standing on the street looking in the window. 3.) non faculty coaches = with these requirements and mandates, it is getting harder to find highly qualified coaches to fit the teaching assignments. i think that down the line our state association will have to make some adjustments. 4.) complain = people would rather complain about public education system than fix it. 5.) unions = they have their place, but cause some of the problems with the system. 6.) if your kids are poorly educated, just look in the mirror and you see the reason for it. this is not pertaining to anyone in particular. just a general comment to anyone who blames someone else for their kid's problems.
|
|
voslos
Sophomore Member
Posts: 100
|
Post by voslos on Apr 14, 2006 21:48:45 GMT -6
I am lucky enough to be able to coach at my former school and not be a teacher. I along with our head coach work as law enforcement officers and choose to work the midnight shift so we can devote ourselves to coaching. Here is how I see it:
Would a school hire a teacher that is not qualified to teach the topic? Heck no. but they will allow a teacher who wants to coach football coach even though he isn't qualified. People that have the knowledge of the game should have the opportunity to coach whether or not they are teachers. I see so many teachers that coach just to get the checks. All they want is the money from coaching and it shows it the efforts they put in. Who loses out here? The kids do.
We have been at our school for the last 3 years and have won the school's first state championship. Before we came on board the program was at the bottom of our conference. Even though we dedicate ourselves as coaches and have turned the program around a teacher could tell the administration that he wants the job and we could be booted from the program.
The way I see it the administration wants their hand in every aspect of the school and feel better having someone in the school to coach that will be their puppet on strings for them to control.
|
|
coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
|
Post by coachf on Apr 14, 2006 22:00:52 GMT -6
Any teacher who takes the paycheck to coach is stupid. In most schools you can get a part-time job oustide of school that will pay a buttload more than coaching does.
I do agree with you voslos, the exact reason administrators want teachers to be coaches is to control them. It sucks but I fight that every single day. Not to mention dealing with school and parents. I think that the most qualified coach should get the job. But, in the end the school is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the person that they feel will cause the least amount of problems, not necessarily the one who will bring in the most wins. That's life and it stinks sometimes. I really wish that our country was a little more aware of what is going on around us. We vote in Senators and Representatives that are unethical and borderline sociopaths. We do the same thing with our school boards. We need some overhauls in our school boards before anything can be done inside the schools. A strong school board will always have an advantage over a superintendent. And that will go a long way to fixing some of our coaching problems.
|
|
smd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211
|
Post by smd on Apr 14, 2006 22:25:46 GMT -6
what's wrong with the principal wanting his hand in everything. his job security is based on the succcess of the school and what happens in it. if something bad happens at the school, the first name on the lawsuit is the principal's. in football, do head coaches just let the assistants do whatever they want? NO!! use some sense here people. some administrators do micro manage, but some head coaches do as well. but don't paint every one with a broad brush
|
|
coachf
Freshmen Member
Posts: 15
|
Post by coachf on Apr 14, 2006 22:42:41 GMT -6
I know an administrator does stake his job with each hire, but they are also afforded the opportunity to cover their butt. I think you do make a good point, though. I just think that that is what an AD is for, let them worry about the sports, while the principal and superintendent take care of schools. A superintendent hires them for that reason, so let them work. BTW, I played dog ball all the time in school. Those freakin' pitbulls kicked the crap out of me. It is my life goal to get rid of this game (I know you probably meant dodge ball, but I couldn't resist)
|
|
smd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211
|
Post by smd on Apr 15, 2006 6:28:03 GMT -6
yeah, i did mean dodge ball. lol in hindsight i shouldn't have posted that. it was late and i just put an extremely tired 3 yr. old to bed who didn't want to go. so i was a little cranky. i am deleting it. i apologize.
|
|
|
Post by jim322ps on Apr 15, 2006 6:50:18 GMT -6
I see some very good points on your side, guys and you are right I don't know whats going on in the schools or have to deal with the way kids act today. I do know that for all the years I have been involved in my kids activities and remembering back when I was a kid that kids are kids and they want to be challenged and they want for the most part to learn. I went to a catholic grammer school in the early 60's with my teachers being nuns and then I went to a inner city HS so I have seen both sides of this problem. The one thing I see different now from when I went to HS is that when I went by my HS the teachers were still there till 5-6pm now they are knocking the kids out of their way when the bell rings. Well I know I can't fix anything and I am sorry to have gotten you good people upset but I do worry about the kids because I have 3 grandchildren and I want them to be challenged at school. Jim
|
|
|
Post by coachjd on Apr 15, 2006 6:51:39 GMT -6
There have been a lot of valid points posted here and the debate is excellent.
In some schools the AD is a bean counter. It is his/her job to make sure the busses are lined up and there are workers and officials at the game and that he orders the equipment that the head coaches order. The principal is ultimatly responsible for everything that occurs in the building. The principal's name will be on the majority of all lawsuits against the school, no matter if it is involved in athletics or not.
I will agree that there are too many coaches out there coaching just to collect a paycheck. We have 2 on staff. 1 is a teacher and 1 is a community member. We have no one to replace them with. We have had very little success with young teachers coming out of college putting time in and doing what is needed at the varstiy level. We end up putting them in our JH or 9th grade programs. At the same time we have had some success with coaches coming from the community to help coach, but they are usaully no help with the summer 7 on 7, wgt room etc... They are not involved with the kids during the school day. IMO, athletics should be a continuation of the school day. It is apart of the high school and those same values should be carried over onto the practice field. I really think the attacks on teachers in some of these post were totally unprofessional. Yes, are there some bad ones, damn right. Are there some bad loan officers, doctors, laywers, postmen, etc... damn right. But they don't have to do their jobs on Friday night with 3000 people looking over your shoulder questioning every decision you make, weather it was right or wrong.
|
|
|
Post by coachjd on Apr 15, 2006 6:58:55 GMT -6
We have a large number of hispanic population moving into our area. We also have a large number of EBD kids in our district. Not one hispanic student is involved in our EBD program. The hispanic kids for the most part have a solid family structure. Mom and dad are hard working, church going, and want their son or daughter to have a good education. The kids in our EBD program our all white kids from low income and broken family homes. KW is so right, parents don't care anymore.
When we have parent/teacher conferences, how many of the parents show up whose kid is failing?? Not many! But all the parents show up of the kids who are receiving A's. It's not rocket science.
My point is, it all starts at home. The schools can only do so much. We are here to educate the youth, not raise them.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 15, 2006 7:28:16 GMT -6
I think jim is well-meaning but lacks the larger perspective. I can see why his father-in-law left public education - there IS a lot of b.s. in it, and most of it comes from the outside.
I have to smile and shake my head when I hear that kids want to be "challenged." Taught English for 19 years, including AP and honors courses.
One year we were concerned with the failure rate of our freshman. I kept some statistics: 67% of the homework I assigned (about one written assignment every other week) was not turned in. Tough to pass that way. Yet, we were being evaluated on their success rate!
Had a superintendent that told us that if "more than 10% of (our) students were failing," to do something about it, implying it was our fault. Well, that would be easy - stop assigning the homework they weren't doing! But of course that wouldn't help them on the standardized tests they have to take, which we are ALSO evaluated on!
Yet we hear calls for "more homework" as part of the "challenge them" cry. What I hear from the students who use that as an excuse is "I don't understand the subject and don't want to try to."
In an AP American Lit class one time, I asked a question that required some critical thinking. Was met with crickets chirping. Rephrased and repeated the question, hinting at the answer as much as I could. Finally a young lady raised her hand ("Aha - thank God!") She said, "Why don't you just tell us?"
A PE colleague of mine was told by a student recently, "Well, if I fail, it's your fault." This particular young man has double-digit absences and particpates at a level just above pond water. I wonder where he got that idea from?
At an inservice last year we were told by the presenter, "Teachers are being held accountable for things over which they have no control. And it isn't going to change. So deal with it."
And on and on. I'm sure every teacher-coach on this board has his share of similar anecdotes. So, yes, we get a little "fired up" or "upset" when we get attacked yet again.
|
|
|
Post by jim322ps on Apr 15, 2006 7:56:16 GMT -6
I am on the opposite side of more homework as I would take away study halls and TEACH THE KIDS IN SCHOOL, where the experts are. I never remember having more than an hour of homework but my kids and my friends kids consistently come home with 2-3 hours of homework, that is ridiculous. I would like for the teachers to put the time in to make school interesting, the same way we coaches try to make practice interesting and yes I know some teachers do that but what % would you say? That is what I mean by challenging.
Jim
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 15, 2006 8:32:52 GMT -6
Jim, in our state study halls are basically illegal (they do not count towards the required number of hours of instruction, so most schools have done away with them).
I agree 2-3 hours of homework a night is ridiculous. HOWEVER - in our state we have mandated curriculum that all grade level teachers must cover, regardless of class size, learning styles (or disabilities), socioeconomic factors, class time lost for standardized testing, etc.
So classroom teachers in some instances have to assign the homework to make sure they're where they're supposed to be and cover all the material required in a semester (have you seen the size of a textbook lately? We use to call those encyclopedias!). Since there are no study halls to do the homework in...
Just another example of outside (read: political) intervention with unintended consequences.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2006 8:55:09 GMT -6
Why does everything that is taught have to be so interesting? No matter what you do, there will always be someone who isn't interested. I agree that it would be nice if everyone were interested in everything, but standardized testing requires students to understand sentence structure, grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. How do you make that interesting? It's necessary, it's important, and it is vital, but learning how to use the gerund form of a word or how to use the semicolon doesn't have an intrinsic excitement to 99% of the people out there. But if kids don't know how to do it then that shows on the tests and I am not doing my job.
Sadly I think that standardized testing hampers how we foster and nurture higher level thinking which involves kids which can be interesting and informative. I can get a kid interested in Hamlet, getting him interested in the antecedents and pluperfects is another story.
And we can't do it all like we do on the football field. It's a totally different animal. Most kids come to football with interest already developed. Most wouldn't be at football practice if they weren't interested. The ones who aren't interested in the running and hard work can quit football.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 15, 2006 9:50:39 GMT -6
I don't care how fast my teacher was dancing, how many tricks he/she did, what (she) was wearing, how good-looking (she) was, or even if it was one of my coaches - there wasn't ANYTHING they could do to get me interested in math or science, past batting and earned run averages or what makes a football spiral.
|
|
|
Post by jim322ps on Apr 15, 2006 9:56:07 GMT -6
Coaches These are all great points and I hope you understand that I have been accused of being a "Bull in a china shop" many times for my abrasive ways. I really only want to understand these problems better and now I do. My Daughter has her teaching degree but with 2 small boys has deceided to stay at home with them. She said teaching was nothing like she thought it would be and the paperwork was very demanding. I guess English would be tough to make interesting, lol. Jim
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 15, 2006 10:40:58 GMT -6
Man we've really stirred up a hornets nest... since I am one of the main players in this, I would like to quote from my old dean at Faber U. "The time has come for somebody to put his foot down... and that foot is ME".
The original discussion- can one be a coach and not be a teacher? Yes. Is it the best route? No. We all have made choices in life- my choice to go in to education was somewhat on accident and due to the fact that I was not going to play pro ball (not nearly enough leagues then) and had no real plan. It worked out well.
My brother was a 3x state champion wrestler, wrestled 2 years for a Big 10 school before injury and would be one heck of a wrestling coach. He tried it too... he was an asst. for a year, but the time commitment was nearly impossible with his job. Not many jobs out there where a guy can get away for practice at 3:30.
If 2 people have a similar background in football and one teaches and one does not the advantages the teacher has are: 1) contact time with students. If football was all x/o work and drills, just about anyone could do it. It is not, as we all know. 2) scheduling- teachers are available for practice at the same time students are 3) what I call the co-curricular nature of athletics... it IS a vital part of the educational process 4) certification issues. I will agree somewhat with voslos- to be certified here (Nebraska) you can be a certified teacher or take the coaching ed. So if I am certified to teach English, I can coach football, though I might know nothing about football. Still, we have to follow state (and now more federal) requirements and can only hire those certified.
Now since this discussion has expanded... well, there are a lot of good points, no need to elaborate... cocahjd and blb... ditto.
By the way we have no coaching tenure here (in fact, I've never heard of it in the west/midwest). In the last month 2 outstanding BB coaches with over 400 wins each were "released". No reason was given (parental complaints are the rumors).
I do not want a political discussion or a debate on educational reform... I'm not too happy with NCLB, but like every other "quick fix buzzword" I'm pretty sure this will die out too. The standardized testing is a joke. We have to do it, our students like it because it raises their grade (they get a quiz grade for those tests). I am at a small public school with a very strong academic tradition. Some of our stats: 50% of our class of 2005 scored 29 or above on the ACT, and we have been labeled as "Exemplary" (highest level) for the past 3 years. I, like anyone else can use stats for whatever purpose supports my side ("there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics"- Mark Twain).
We have "accountability" without responsibility and "no child left behind", and now we are forcing the able to wait. We re-do everything, re-train everything and do waste the taxpayers money...if education was in charge of raising a family they would toilet train everyone in the house every time there was a new baby. One thing that Jim and others outside need to understand is that most of the educational irresponsibility comes down the pike from above and we have to straighten it out and deal with it. Now I am not above fighting anything that is stupid... one of MY buzz-phrases in education is "it is much better to ask for forgiveness than permission" (I say SORRY a lot).
Football (athletics in general) is one of the last frontiers. Winners are determined by discipline, work, preparation, attention to detail, persistence and passion.
If you lose in football, you have no one to blame but yourself. You can not sue to recapture a game (some have tried), you can blame the refs, or the coaches or whoever... but the loss is still there and eventually you will accept that you lost because the other guy flat out beat you, and your teammates got beat by their guys.
I've always said that football is a microcosm of life... maybe that is not true anymore- it's a microcosm of what life should be.
I always tell out players, at the beginning of the season that: you beat 50% of your competition by outworking them. You beat 30% of your competition by being people of character, integrity and resolve. The last 20% is a dogfight in a free-enterprise system.
Work hard, smart and tough, have character and do what is right... and we will win. We won't be state champions every year, but we will win.
If we adopted this premise on a national scale... wow...just imagine.
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 15, 2006 10:54:24 GMT -6
My Daughter has her teaching degree but with 2 small boys has deceided to stay at home with them. She said teaching was nothing like she thought it would be and the paperwork was very demandingJim, I can understand what she is feeling. I'll be honest and say that if not for coaching football, I never would have gone in to this profession... and at times, the only reason I stayed in was because of coaching football. New teachers have it much worse as far as requirements to get a license, etc. I've said a lot (when mad... I'm kind of a bull in a china shop as well) that I am 2 educational mandates away from quitting this job and going in to something where I can make some money. Really, I'm 2 perpetual mandates away... I do this for the kids and the love of football. And education needs good people, and I must be a good one because I am a football coach . I think one thing you realize when on this board, at camps, clinics... anywhere there are football coaches... guys who coach football are generally great guys. It is a very diverse group, but there is a common bond: the love of the game and the joy of helping young people. I think for that reason alone,we are pretty quick to defend ourselves, our colleagues and our profession.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 15, 2006 10:57:00 GMT -6
"Football is the last bastion of discipline in American schools." -- Woody Hayes
|
|
|
Post by jim322ps on Apr 15, 2006 13:16:16 GMT -6
I would like to thank you coaches for putting up with me and taking the time to explain your side without ripping me, to badly, lol. If I was 17 again and my HS counselor was asking me what I would like to be I could finally answer that question "I would like to be a coach" would now be my answer. I am now 52 and other than coaching at the youth level I have no other coaching aspirations and over the last 7 years I have meet coaches from Penn st all the way to flag coaches and I realize what a great fraternity I now belong to. So again let me apologize for being me and starting this thread to go awry. Jim
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 15, 2006 13:22:47 GMT -6
No need to apologize, Coach Jim. Your posts have been beneficial for all of us. You ARE a coach - and there is no greater calling in this country, IMHO. Best wishes to you, and your daughter who's going to be a teacher.
|
|
|
Post by coachjd on Apr 15, 2006 13:43:40 GMT -6
Coach Jim,
as I posted before this is a great debate. Nothing wrong with 2 sides debating over a topic. Everyone handled this very professionally and with great view points on both sides.
We do belong to a great fraternity. Without coaching, I don't know if I could handle all the political bull that shoved down our throats every election year.
Once again felles, this is why this board is so great. We have coaches all across the country standing up for what they believe in and we all agreed to disagree.
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 15, 2006 14:08:02 GMT -6
now that this is all settled....
"Toga! Toga!..."
|
|
|
Post by jim322ps on Apr 15, 2006 14:45:56 GMT -6
senatorblutarsky I thought you would get a kick out of this. When one of the kids in my family get married (my kids, cousins) I have to do the on the back Shout dance from the AH movie. They got it on film at my daughters wedding and I can't for the life of me imagine why everyone wants me to do it, lol. It's like watching a 300 lb guy go into the last spasms before death. Jim BTW - they also think that feeding me large amounts of beer and Bourbon makes me do it. I won't say anything to change their minds.
|
|
voslos
Sophomore Member
Posts: 100
|
Post by voslos on Apr 15, 2006 19:36:34 GMT -6
Do you guys think administrations look for potential canidates for job openings that have college playing experience? I guess if I was in their shoes I would be looking for someone to teach and coach.
With everything that has been said so far I don't think anyone is bashing teachers like someone alluded to before. I have to admit I'm explained my point of view which is based on my experience at the school I am at. It is the same school that I grew up in so I have a good idea what is going on here, but my point of view is limited in the fact that I'm basing my assumptions from one school.
I totally agree with the other people that having teachers as coaches in critical to the team. We had a staff of 7 full time coaches with only 1 of them being a teacher. We had 2 quite on us. The teacher on staff has so much information on kids that we would never have if he wasn't on the coaching staff.
I guess I get frustrated that I see teachers that want nothing to do with anything once that last bell rings. They don't even come to support the kids at sporting events. Our high school and middle school phy ed teachers don't even coach a single sport!! That is a joke. I hear the excuse that I don't know anything about football. You don't have to be that knowledgable to be a good coach. There are resources like this website that can teach people what they need to know. OK enough venting.
|
|
|
Post by jim322ps on Apr 16, 2006 6:25:43 GMT -6
I started coaching football 11 years ago and when I started I didn't know how to hold a bag, lol. In 4 years I was head coach of the 8-9 yo team and I was just made the HC of the 12-14 so you don't have to know anything to be helpful and you can learn very quick if you want. Jim
|
|
|
Post by biggroff on Apr 16, 2006 11:07:38 GMT -6
I have been a teacher at a Junior College for 10 years and coached High School football for the last 11 years. I have been lucky to be able to do this for my entire coaching carrer.
I was a DC at a big Public school for 6 years. Then the district had budget probelms and got rid of all the coaches that did not teach in the buliding.
I was lucky enough to get a coaching job at a Catholic school in a very good football conference. I am still a DC at the school.
In my opinion, private schools valye better coaching than public schools. Less contractual and poitical interference. Private schools don't pay as well for a coaching stipen, but the difference is about $2,000.
I am very happy to be teaching in an environment that I love (junior college) and coaching the sport I love at a good high school.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2006 15:58:52 GMT -6
"I think jim is well-meaning but lacks the larger perspective. I can see why his father-in-law left public education - there IS a lot of b.s. in it, and most of it comes from the outside. I have to smile and shake my head when I hear that kids want to be "challenged." Taught English for 19 years, including AP and honors courses. One year we were concerned with the failure rate of our freshman. I kept some statistics: 67% of the homework I assigned (about one written assignment every other week) was not turned in. Tough to pass that way. Yet, we were being evaluated on their success rate! Had a superintendent that told us that if "more than 10% of (our) students were failing," to do something about it, implying it was our fault. Well, that would be easy - stop assigning the homework they weren't doing! But of course that wouldn't help them on the standardized tests they have to take, which we are ALSO evaluated on! Yet we hear calls for "more homework" as part of the "challenge them" cry. What I hear from the students who use that as an excuse is "I don't understand the subject and don't want to try to." In an AP American Lit class one time, I asked a question that required some critical thinking. Was met with crickets chirping. Rephrased and repeated the question, hinting at the answer as much as I could. Finally a young lady raised her hand ("Aha - thank God!") She said, "Why don't you just tell us?" A PE colleague of mine was told by a student recently, "Well, if I fail, it's your fault." This particular young man has double-digit absences and particpates at a level just above pond water. I wonder where he got that idea from? At an inservice last year we were told by the presenter, "Teachers are being held accountable for things over which they have no control. And it isn't going to change. So deal with it." And on and on. I'm sure every teacher-coach on this board has his share of similar anecdotes. So, yes, we get a little "fired up" or "upset" when we get attacked yet again."--blb I agree with a lot of what is posted here, blb! In fact, in getting to the original topic of this thread, I am looking into leaving the teaching profession IF I can still coach at some schools around where I grew up. I do believe it is ideal for a coach to be a school employee as someone stated above, but I've become pretty turned off towards the teaching profession. It is not the kids, though--it's all of the b.s. you have to put up with parents and administrators. That is not directed at anyone here, but I've had several bad experiences with administrators in my (only) four years as an educator. I have gained great respect for the profession itself and the people who do it year after year, decade after decade in some cases, but I'm not sure it is for me. I've gotten to the point with all the pressure a teacher faces that coaching is the only part of the job I enjoy.
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 16, 2006 17:36:55 GMT -6
In my opinion, private schools valye better coaching than public schools.
Let's not get this argument going... I could point out a bunch of examples where the reverse is the case.
Really, there are schools that value what coaches do, and schools that don't...big, little, private, public... that really doesn't matter when considering this is a national board (what may be true in one region is not in another).
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 16, 2006 17:45:15 GMT -6
--it's all of the b.s. you have to put up with parents and administrators. That is not directed at anyone here, but I've had several bad experiences with administrators in my (only) four years as an educator.
Wolverine, I certainly understand your line of thinking... I guess I got so fed up with administrators that I became one. All I needed was to have my spine removed and have a lobotomy. ;D
Seriously, you need to do what is best for you. Just remember that teachers/coaches are the ones who work with the students, they are the ones who make schools go and there are a lot of administrators who are full of $&^@ and couldn't teach so they got in to a position where they could hide in the office and not have to face anyone.
We need good people in this profession in spite of state/federal regulations, bad administrations, apathetic arents/students... I don't know you, but if you are fed up with all of the garbage in this profession, I'd feel pretty confident in saying you are a good teacher. The ones who think everything is fine and just care about "summers off" (when have coaches had "summers off"?) that worry me...
|
|
|
Post by blb on Apr 16, 2006 17:51:43 GMT -6
Bluto: Do the asses become kings, or do the kings become asses?
|
|